Liverpool FC Forum

[Emerald Red]

Read this over on RAWK. It's an interesting perspective on things from someone who isn't even an LFC supporter. Pity some of our so called fans can't be as objective and as sympathetic to our cause in their views, particularly towards our manager. I found it both equally incisive in it's narrative and horrowing in the fact that there are actual truths. Sad and scary times.

I feel really sorry for Liverpool. They're in a right old mess.

Liverpool FC is one of the world's greatest, most renowned sporting institutions and it is being run, quite disgracefully, to the verge of bankruptcy. This is a club that generated £159million of revenue last year but, according to news reports at the weekend, still had to assure the Premier League it was financially viable after KPMG's audit concluded it was concerned about its 'ability to continue as a growing concern'.

It managed to resist a £70million bid from Manchester City for Fernando Torres but only just. Next summer it will be the same situation again.

The pressure is really on. If the club doesn't make good progress in the Champions League or finishes outside the top four in the league, there is a real chance of Liverpool going into administration. They're fighting on the pitch not for mere success but for their very existence.

Tom Hicks and George Gillett are killing the club. Disgraceful.

Many like to laugh at the Scousers, the online paranoia and sensitivity of a few of their fans are legendary and, yes, they've had their fair share of hooliganism issues over the years - but the club and its followers don't deserve to be judged on its more extreme or daft elements any more than any other club.

I was privileged to be at Anfield on some of their legendary European nights in the late 70s and early 80s. They were the stuff of epic, skin-prickling legend; warm, happy, uplifting celebrations of football.

I treasure those nights seeing David Fairclough flying down the wing like liquid flame as Liverpool kicked into the Kop and simply would not be denied.

Until the blogosphere came along I never experienced anything to contradict the oft-spouted notion that many traditional Liverpool fans are amongst the more knowledgeable observers of football as well as some of the more passionate flame-carriers for the best traditions of the game. Their persistent boycotting of The Sun remains noble.

This entire heritage is being abused and we should all care. If asset-stripping, profit-hungry monsters like Hicks and Gillett are not stopped, one day they might come for your club, rip it off, feck it up and leave it bereft.

If ever a club was less suited to be an asset for capitalist greed-pigs to trade for profit, it was Liverpool.

If ever a club reflected what made football the biggest sport in the country, it was Liverpool with its ground set in the bosom of the labouring working class being led by a man-of-the-people idealist in Bill Shankly.

Shankly was an inspiring man, perfectly suited to the Mersey mindset. My mate Mikey, when presented with any problem in life still asks himself, what would Shankly do?

The procession of managers from Shanks to Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish was a litany of earthy, no-nonsense brilliance who achieved so much. That late 80s team was football brilliance made extant.

The current owners dishonour the legacy of those fine men and those who played under them.

For decades, Liverpool FC was the beating red heart of the football body politic. But what has happened to this noble club?

It is lumbered with debt, it is owned by these ridiculous, stupid men who care and know nothing about football, who care and know nothing of their 'asset', and who seem to dislike each other as much as they dislike football. Like a silly, squabbling married couple, one of them wants to sell his share but can't do so unless the other idiot agrees to it.

They haul themselves around rich Saudi Princes offering the club like a 20 dollar whore, each of them with a different, doubtless hapless idea about how to take the club forward.

RBS only failed to call in the £300m debt this summer for fear of a public backlash that the largely publicly-owned bank was going to crush one of the world's great football clubs.

Hicks and Gillett appear not to have spent much or any of their own money buying the club. Instead they have leveraged borrowing against the asset that they only acquired with the money they borrowed. It makes no sense and ironically, is said to be an illegal practice in America.

Liverpool FC is now a slave to their debt, condemned to forever graft to pay off the interest on the loan. It would seem that these jokers have ownership of the asset to sell for a personal profit but the club has ownership of the debt. The Gruesome Twosome lose nothing if Liverpool fail.

Anfield is through the looking glass. Logic and proportion has fallen sloppy dead and the white knight is talking backwards.

Rafa Benitez is hamstrung by the persistently shambolic behaviour of the owners. Their mismanagement and machinations have infected the whole club.

It looks from the outside that from one transfer window to another he hasn't a clue what resources will be available to him. It's no wonder mistakes are made in that kind of short-term environment.

And the whole time, he and the squad know that if they are not successful, Hicks and Gillett won't be able to service the debt and the club will go into administration, will have to sell Torres and Gerrard, suffer a ten-point deduction and disqualification from any European competition. That is huge pressure, pressure that may now have got too much for all to bear this season.

The new stadium is on hold until God knows when, further stalling progress. Every week there's talk of someone buying half or the entire club off one or both of the current fools, but nothing ever comes to fruition and the feeling that this is all just wind and pish grows stronger.

It's a testament to Benitez' good faith, bloody-mindedness, strength of purpose and belief in the club's potential and fans that he's stayed as long as he has and done as well as he has. He's had plenty of reasons to walk away before now.

Even if the Saudi Prince buys out the club in its entirety, fans would be right to be cynical of both his commitment and intention until he prove, not just financially astute but football astute; in harmony with the traditions, culture and passions of the club and its fans.

Football is an irrational game and its culture is driven by unfathomable emotion and ritual. It is emphatically not a faceless corporate asset to be traded amongst billionaire bozos. It is, in every sense, a game by and of the people.

In one sense, Liverpool are ahead of the curve, their situation will not be untypical as more similarly bilious billionaires buy and sell clubs for ego, profit or entertainment. Perhaps it is therefore down to Liverpool to try and resolve these problems innovatively and blaze a new trail.

The Rogan Taylor-led fan buy-out seems to have stalled, which is a shame. If ever a club was suited to be owned and run by the people it is Liverpool with its history of collectivised labour. We certainly need new, fresh ideas on how clubs can be owned, funded and run.

Maybe we should all ask, like Mikey, what would Shankly do? His words might provide a clue.

"The socialism I believe in is not really politics. It is a way of living. It is humanity. I believe the only way to live and to be truly successful is by collective effort, with everyone working for each other, everyone helping each other, and everyone having a share of the rewards at the end of the day."

Shanks wasn't wrong about much.

[url=http://football365.com/john_nicholson/0,17033,8746_5638248,00.html

]http://football365.com/john_ni....][/url]

[bigmick]

I got as far as "so called fans" and stopped there.

[bigmick]

I actually find it astonishing that some of our "so called fans" think that finishing in the top four of the league, being outplayed by the likes of Sunderland, winning no trophies etc etc etc is the limit of our ambition. Anybody who thinks we might be capable of more than that is not a real fan. How odd.

[Sir Roger]

I actually find it astonishing that some of our "so called fans" think that finishing in the top four of the league, being outplayed by the likes of Sunderland, winning no trophies etc etc etc is the limit of our ambition. Anybody who thinks we might be capable of more than that is not a real fan. How odd.

Its a sad, sad fact that we are slowly but surely becoming a shadow of what we were. Those of us old enough to have seen three decades of dominance and class are now in fear of that heritage disappearing in the dust of a pair of yank tw@ts as they scurry off after mortally wounding our club. Moores and Parry will be forever be infamous for the shameful way they welcomed these snakes into our home.
Thirty pieces of silver anyone...?

[made in UK]

That was a very good yet depressing read.

[Emerald Red]

I actually find it astonishing that some of our "so called fans" think that finishing in the top four of the league, being outplayed by the likes of Sunderland, winning no trophies etc etc etc is the limit of our ambition. Anybody who thinks we might be capable of more than that is not a real fan. How odd.

Its a sad, sad fact that we are slowly but surely becoming a shadow of what we were. Those of us old enough to have seen three decades of dominance and class are now in fear of that heritage disappearing in the dust of a pair of yank tw@ts as they scurry off after mortally wounding our club. Moores and Parry will be forever be infamous for the shameful way they welcomed these snakes into our home.
Thirty pieces of silver anyone...?

Those days are well gone. That article sums up everything. But some people still want to believe that we can have a solid house in order of achieving that success once again under the thumb of those two c*nts. Never going to happen. No one of prestige will want to work under those two. They are the cancer that is eating away at the foundations. I stand by the affirmation of many that Benitez standing his ground is the one thing that is saving this club from complete disaster. No, some would rather sink the boot in.

[LFC2007]

I'm torn...I don't think the article is up to much, but I appreciate the sentiments of the guy.

[akumaface]

Another article I find interesting.

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2009/10/19/why-rafa-could-qui/

I kind of agreed with the Article. Rafa's winning record is among the best we had. He is working really hard in a very difficult situation. His transfer record is not really that bad. It only looked bad because of the number of players come and go but if you value their transfer value, I'm sure Man U Hargreaves himself would be enough for couple of our flops. The fact that we never really have any big money to spend on one player. If the article is true, Rafa did in fact ask to buy Silva, Villa, Simao and many others top quality player but only to be rejected. Rafa really never moans about much. He keep quiet most of the time and did his job. It is also very true that if he leaves, many wanted Morinnhno here but no one is going to come here to inherit a situation like this.

[fivecups]

Great read ER. He sums the atrocity of H+G more clearly than anyone else I've read. They are in a no lose situation, for us it's no win. People have mentioned Leeds and I don't think it's that hard to see the comparison. It's hard to see what the answer unless we get bought by a foreign sugar-daddy, but I think we've probably been offered to everyone already.

Here's the TIA article akuma linked to:

WHETHER you love or hate Rafa Benitez, put yourself in the Spaniard’s shoes for a moment.

After a lifetime living and working in Spain, after guiding Valencia to the most successful period in their history with a first title in 31 years followed up by a La Liga and UEFA Cup double, you choose to leave your home country behind to come to England and manage Liverpool.

You make that decision despite other, more lucrative offers lying on the table back in June 2004 – from Spurs, Inter Milan and Besiktas.

But you plump for Liverpool, drawn by its standing and heritage, inheriting an underachieving, average squad which looked certain to lose two of its best players in Michael Owen and Steven Gerrard.

For five years you live and work in a foreign country, putting your heart and soul into the manager’s job at a football club where resources don’t match the expectations.

You master a new language, work up to 22-hour days, change players’ diets and training methods and even enjoy an infamous drink in Germany with Liverpool fans.

You left one job where directors refused to sign players you wanted and interfered with transfer dealings (sparking your infamous “I asked the club for a sofa and they bought me a lampshade” quote)  and walked into another one with similar problems.

You were told by co-owner George Gillett you could sign “Snoogy Doogy” if that’s who you wanted – but then you were told you couldn’t sign Simao, Gareth Barry, Michael Dawson, David Villa, David Silva, Kenwyne Jones, Ryan Shawcross and countless others.

You had a club co-owner open talks with Jurgen Klinsmann about succeeding you as manager – and found out about it through the newspapers.

You signed Xabi Alonso, Fernando Torres, Pepe Reina, Javier Mascherano, Luis Garcia, Yossi Benayoun, Dirk Kuyt, Glen Johnson, Emiliano Inusa, Momo Sissoko, Alvaro Arbeloa, Daniel Agger and Peter Crouch – then people kept saying you have a terrible record in the transfer market.

In your first season, despite a poor squad, you won the Champions League in one of the most thrilling matches in football history. Key to the run to the final was your ability to squeeze out quality performances from limited players, most notably Igor Biscan.

You also reached the League Cup final in that first season, losing to Chelsea 3-2 after extra time, and finished fifth in the league.

The following season you won the FA Cup, beating Manchester United and Chelsea on the way to the final, when West Ham were edged out on penalties. In the league you guided Liverpool to third, missing out on the runners-up spot by just one point.

That FA Cup success in Cardiff made you the only manager in the history of Liverpool Football Club to win major trophies in both of the first two seasons at the club.

A year later you guided Liverpool to another Champions League final, again knocking out Chelsea on the way. This time it wasn’t to be, but you could be forgiven for thinking people may recognise that it is no mean feat to get that far – and no disgrace to lose to AC Milan.

In the league, you took us to third place again.

But 2007-8 was a poor year for you. You only reached the semi-finals of the Champions League and finished fourth in the league. Your job was offered to Klinsmann though, so maybe you could be forgiven for taking your eye off the ball.

And so to last season. Quarter-finals of the Champions League, runners-up in the league with 86 points. The only team in English top-flight history to lose so few games and not be crowned champions.

The best points total since 1988, but also the highest of any side in a 20-team league not to win the championship.

Fair to say, you were unlucky. You took us so close to the much-coveted number 19.

And let’s not forget, you’ve won 57 per cent of your games in charge of Liverpool, the same as Bob Paisley.

So with all that in mind, you deserve some respect, right? You’ve done a great job in trying circumstances. You’ve proved you are what they said you were when you arrived from Valencia – a world-class manager.

But it’s not enough. You’ve lost four games out of nine this season. You’ve sold a player, Xabi Alonso, who wanted to leave the club, for a huge profit to the biggest club in his home country.

You might think your excellent record buys you some time in the job at Anfield and some patience from the fans, just like it does for Arsene Wenger, trophyless with Arsenal since 2005.

Well not for some people. They’ve had enough. They want Jose Mourinho. A man in a job at Inter Milan, with a huge salary. A man who would cost a lot of money in compensation and in wages. Oh and we’d have to pay you off  too, Rafa. But hang on, there’s no money…

What’s that Rafa? You’re resigning? You don’t feel appreciated? You’ve had enough of fickle fans on phone-ins and internet forums sniping and moaning? Had enough of media men calling you “cold”, slagging off your tactics, harping on about zonal marking and questioning the timing of your substitutions?

Hypothetical, of course. But it could happen. And it would be a huge problem for Liverpool if it did.

Mourinho, Guus Hiddink, Fabio Capello…all top managers that trigger-happy fans have been mentioning as they debate Rafa’s replacement.

But why would any of them come to Anfield? No money to spend, owners that hate each other, sky-high expectations and a demand for immediate results…

Hardly the dream job is it?

When Benitez was trying to renegotiate his contract at Valencia in 2004 he said: “My ideal scenario was continue the work I had started at Valencia.

“But the managing director said to me, ‘If I give you two more years on your contract and then you lose three matches it is going to be my problem!” If that was how much respect my three years of work had earned, then it seemed obvious to me that they had little interest in me staying.”

He later said: “It appears that I’m valued more outside the club than I am at Valencia itself.”

Deja vu?

It’s clear he likes to be loved. And for his record at Liverpool, he deserves to be. But if people turn against him so quickly, whose to say he won’t pack it in? It’s not like he would struggle to get another job.

In the first post-Benitez year at Valencia, the club finished seventh, 26 points behind La Liga champions Barcelona.

If Benitez resigns, or, as unlikely as it is given the financial situation, is sacked, Liverpool could go backwards too.

I wonder what Alan Curbishley is doing these days…

[tubby]

Great article Emerald. Unfortunatley it was all to depressing reading it.

[bunglemark2]

Errrrr...sorry to have to say it, but that article makes me want to go find a small violin and play it for Rafa. Poor guy....
No mention of the countless failures in his transfer dealings, his (at times) daft rotation policy, his pathetic and childish rantings to the press (over Keane, Ferguson etc.), his insistence that zonal marking is the way forward (when we're already conceded more goals at this point of the season than in recent memory), replacing a class player like Xabi with a guy who won't grace the field until we are out of the running, who can't see that certain players are just not up to scratch (Voronin, Lucas etc...)

A more balanced debate is required, methinks....

Yes the owners are a pair of w@nk3rs, we all know that - but there ain't no rich Arab on the horizon right now, nor will there be ay time soon....so what's the point in harping on about them all the time. I hate them as much as every one else here, mind...

[Sir Roger]

Errrrr...sorry to have to say it, but that article makes me want to go find a small violin and play it for Rafa. Poor guy....
No mention of the countless failures in his transfer dealings, his (at times) daft rotation policy, his pathetic and childish rantings to the press (over Keane, Ferguson etc.), his insistence that zonal marking is the way forward (when we're already conceded more goals at this point of the season than in recent memory), replacing a class player like Xabi with a guy who won't grace the field until we are out of the running, who can't see that certain players are just not up to scratch (Voronin, Lucas etc...)

A more balanced debate is required, methinks....

Yes the owners are a pair of w@nk3rs, we all know that - but there ain't no rich Arab on the horizon right now, nor will there be ay time soon....so what's the point in harping on about them all the time. I hate them as much as every one else here, mind...

There were rich arabs on the horizon but they were basically fu'cked of by dumb and dumber in favour of twit and tw@t and whatever promises were made. Im sure there are still rich arabs waiting in the wings and I am confident that we will get someone who is willing to take us to the next level soon
The problem with criticising Rafa is we will always get people using statistics to tell us he is doing fine. He isnt.
But, I dont want him to go, unless he changes his attitude and eats a bit of humble pie. He can do this by accepting that he has bought some shi't and got rid of players who could have done a better job than some hes kept. Can he do this? I dont know, but I doubt it. The biggest problem for me is that theres no team spirit, happiness, smiling faces, larking about, fun. Everythings doom and gloom and I believe that part of the football experience has got to be enjoyment by the players of being involved in the Fu*king thing. Rafa needs to work on that asap in my opinion.

[parchpea]

If you strip all the other stuff away and just focus on what Benitez has done with the team then my own thoughts are he has not done well enough and continues to let us down. The guy is on a hell of a contract and we all work under pressure and difficult circumstances in the world today so that does not wash with me. Its like hes doing us a favour by doing the job when the truth hes just running a football team and being paid a kings ransom for his time. So what if he doesnt care for his employers or there are problems with the company you just have to crack on and get the job done like everyone else or face the consequences. If its so difficult he could walk away but hey we all know why he wont do that. The truth is Benitez does not have it that tough and has been backed up by his employers more than most so if he doesnt not deliver the goods its his own fault but we continue to find ways to excuse him when we are let down time an time again.

[Emerald Red]

Errrrr...sorry to have to say it, but that article makes me want to go find a small violin and play it for Rafa. Poor guy....
No mention of the countless failures in his transfer dealings, his (at times) daft rotation policy, his pathetic and childish rantings to the press (over Keane, Ferguson etc.), his insistence that zonal marking is the way forward (when we're already conceded more goals at this point of the season than in recent memory), replacing a class player like Xabi with a guy who won't grace the field until we are out of the running, who can't see that certain players are just not up to scratch (Voronin, Lucas etc...)

A more balanced debate is required, methinks....

Yes the owners are a pair of w@nk3rs, we all know that - but there ain't no rich Arab on the horizon right now, nor will there be ay time soon....so what's the point in harping on about them all the time. I hate them as much as every one else here, mind...

Xabi Alonso handed in his transfere request. What could be done? Aquilani is touted in Italy as being a better player than Kaka and one of the jewels of Italian football. To buy a player of that reputation fully fit would cost a fair bit more than what we paid, possibly even the whole 30 million we recouped off Alonso, which, by the way, Rafa made a 20 million pound profit on him. People also say Rafa has been poor in the transfere market, well, name me a single manager that has a hit with every single player he buys. You'll find none. What Rafa does extremely well in the transfer market is that he seldom makes a loss, and usually turns over a profit on a player. In any business, that's good. Hardly poor. People forget, to the owners of LFC, we're now a business first, and a club second. To us fans, it's different of course. You're also banging on about the tired, and ridiculously played out argument of zonal marking. It's a system, and no system is infalable. There are no right and no wrong ways to defend set plays. People love to bash the method without even understanding the reasoning behind it. In fact, I've yet to read a valid description of it from anyone who is critcal of it. Oh, and Rafa's rant at Fergie, fair play to him. He'd the stones to say what others wanted to say but hadn't had the balls to.

Benitez has been working in arguably the most difficult position in the league since he took over. I can't think of a single manager who would have lasted as long under the climate he's in, with constant rumors in the press, and dirty dealings behind his back undermining both the man's job and his integrity, and amidst it all, he's remained dignified. You only need to read his comments he made regarding the ref on the balloon incident.

People love to bash the manager. Sure that's their own right to. But don't expect for a minute that if Rafa walks or gets sacked, that we're going to have a miraculous turn around, winning the title year after year, because that just isn't going to happen no matter who takes over. Right now this club, players, manager alike are in dire need of some support.

[Emerald Red]

If you strip all the other stuff away and just focus on what Benitez has done with the team then my own thoughts are he has not done well enough and continues to let us down. The guy is on a hell of a contract and we all work under pressure and difficult circumstances in the world today so that does not wash with me. Its like hes doing us a favour by doing the job when the truth hes just running a football team and being paid a kings ransom for his time. So what if he doesnt care for his employers or there are problems with the company you just have to crack on and get the job done like everyone else or face the consequences. If its so difficult he could walk away but hey we all know why he wont do that. The truth is Benitez does not have it that tough and has been backed up by his employers more than most so if he doesnt not deliver the goods its his own fault but we continue to find ways to excuse him when we are let down time an time again.

That's right, he's let us down time and time again. Forget the fact that it was 14 years before that, that we were let down time and time again.