Liverpool FC Forum

[JoeTerp]

I think we need to hold off all of our judgements on how the team's style is working out until after a couple of games after Gerrard and Torres come back.  I know in other posts Stu was saying that a Gerrard mascherano combo in the centre of midfield wont work, but we have not played a competitive game this season with both players in the starting XI (much less the same midfield partnerhsip).  I don't know what kind of team we will end up with once everybody is fit, but if say Kuyt is not in the normal starting XI from here on out, then it doesn't count for much to blame him for our lack of possessive football.  Our results so far have been good enough despite our form calling out for more, and although its nice to say that we should be able to play better without our two best players, we just aren't a team that is ready for that, especially at this stage in the season.  Nevertheless, I am afraid about what could happen to this team in the short term, because I am not sure HOW we are going to turn it around.  Hopefully, we can somehow nick a result just one more time this Saturday before we start really outplaying teams and "deserving" results

[GYBS]

Gerrard ------------Pennant/Kuyt          Gerrard
Momo-------------- Masher          Masher
Xabi  ---------------Xabi               Draw
Kewell --------------Babel or whoever  Babel

I think the rest of your comparisons are generally sound, albeit with a few debatable points (Hyypia v. Agger/Skrtel; Cisse v. Kuyt).  I find your midfield comparisons problematic, however.  First there's the fact that Gerrard only makes your 05-06 midfield and not your 08-09 midfield!   Then, there's the Kewell v. Babel match-up.  IMO, Kewell wins that head-to-head hands down.  A reasonably fit and firing Kewell was one of the biggest assets we had during that run in.  He provided very critical balance to that midfield, kept fullbacks stretched out wide and chipped in with the goals.  I've not seen anywhere near that same capacity from Babel on the left.  Yes, he's scored some great goals but a lot of those have been as an impact sub coming on and playing up top.  As a LM, he's been more of a liability than anything for me and I'd take the 05-06 Kewell over the Dutchman all day long.

That leads to the question of overall midfield balance because it's not just about individuals but about how they gel as a unit.  I don't think you can argue that the 05-06 midfield quartet of Kewell, Sissoko, Alonso and Gerrard were not a much more coherent force than our current midfield.  In part, that's down to the fact that our current midfield is still recovering form and fitness after a busy summer away, the upheavals of the transfer window and niggling injuries.  Plus, I fully expect Riera will displace Babel at LM, making a comparison meaningless until we see what he provides.  It'll take a lot of work, though, for this current midfield to match the cohesion and quality of the 05-06 vintage.

Left gerrard out for a reason mate 

was just doing it with the 442 - yeah prob kewell would shade it but when you compare the 442 of that year with the 4-2-3-1 of last season then last season wins hands down if you ask me .

the balance of the midfield last season was spot on with the one in 05/06 being make shift to enable momo and xabi to play and in the end gerrard spent most of his time shifting inside anyway with cisse going out right .

two people  minimum make this and last seasons team better than the 05/06 team - torres and masher - by a mile.

Also people need to remember that in the 05/06 season both arsenal and the mancs were ( yet mancs still ended above us ) and chelsea won it by a mile.

[account deleted by request]

Yet in 05/06 we gained more points, managed to even get a point off the mancs in the league! and it was the only time under Rafa that we have managed to beat the mancs, Arsenal AND Chelsea in the same season.

Arguing which Liverpool team is the best is a bit silly in my opinion...... but thats never stopped me before.

I think the main difference between the '06 side and the team last season is the '06 side had better balance throughout.

Hyypia and Carra were a better PAIR of centre backs than Carra and Skrtel or even Agger.

Everyone hopefully knows how highly I rate Masch , but I think Sissoko and Alonso were a better balanced PAIR than Alonso and Masch have shown up to now.

Wide players in '06....... again I would go with Kewell and Gerrard rather than Kuyt and Babel

Only up front would I say that we have improved greatly from '06 with the purchase of Torres.

[GYBS]

Yet in 05/06 we gained more points, managed to even get a point off the mancs in the league! and it was the only time under Rafa that we have managed to beat the mancs, Arsenal AND Chelsea in the same season.

Arguing which Liverpool team is the best is a bit silly in my opinion...... but thats never stopped me before.

I think the main difference between the '06 side and the team last season is the '06 side had better balance throughout.

Hyypia and Carra were a better PAIR of centre backs than Carra and Skrtel or even Agger.

Everyone hopefully knows how highly I rate Masch , but I think Sissoko and Alonso were a better balanced PAIR than Alonso and Masch have shown up to now.

Wide players in '06....... again I would go with Kewell and Gerrard rather than Kuyt and Babel

Only up front would I say that we have improved greatly from '06 with the purchase of Torres.

yes we beat a poor manc team and a poor arsenal team and beat chelsea on penalties but in the cup . yes we gained more points but still a far amount behind the winners and we are actually getting closer to the winners in points wise.

as opposed to balance - as i said gerrard spent most of the time cutting inside so big gapping holes oin the right

Carra and Agger were a better pair than sami and carra and showed 06/07 season and its too early to judge partnerships with skittles yet .

wide areas yeah kewell added width but the one thing gerrard didnt do was add width - look back again at that season .

and momo was a liability who got lucky first season but found out second season .

our defensive record gets better each season and last years goalscoring record was miles better than any other season .

also have to look at the strength of the other teams in the league - last season and this season teams like BS,Blackburn,Boro,Villa,Pompey are all far stronger than they were 05/06 with only spurs getting anywhere near top 4

[account deleted by request]

We beat Chelsea 2-1 Riise and Garcia got the goals....... not on penalties.

we are actually getting closer to the winners in points wise.

Wrong........... 9 points behind Chelsea '06    ..........11 points behind the mancs last season


Whether Gerrard cut inside or not is hardly up for discussion when comparing him with Kuyt tbh. Kuyt adds neither width or goal threat or even much in the way of control, so I can't say you are making much sense there mate?


Carra and Agger have/had one big failing neither is much good in the air, with Sami back in 06 we never had that problem. 

our defensive record gets better each season

Wrong again mate, we had a better record in '06. we only conceeded 25 in '06.

[GYBS]

We beat Chelsea 2-1 Riise and Garcia got the goals....... not on penalties.

we are actually getting closer to the winners in points wise.

Wrong........... 9 points behind Chelsea '06    ..........11 points behind the mancs last season


Whether Gerrard cut inside or not is hardly up for discussion when comparing him with Kuyt tbh. Kuyt adds neither width or goal threat or even much in the way of control, so I can't say you are making much sense there mate?


Carra and Agger have/had one big failing neither is much good in the air, with Sami back in 06 we never had that problem. 

our defensive record gets better each season

Wrong again mate, we had a better record in '06. we only conceeded 25 in '06.

still in the cup thou wasnt it ? didnt we always get stuffed 4-1 at home by them that year ? ok im out by two points and as i said the standard that year was poor and if we kept the same team as we did then we would be even further behind them now. also add to the fact we were out of the CL so we could concentrate on the league as opposed to last season and the season before when we had to balance a weak thin sqaud bar the first 11 . so played weaker teams in the league.

as for kuyt not carrying a goal  threat or assisting him seems to have done pretty well then getting double figures in goals for his first two seasons and assists last season . and yes he does provide width - stays out on the right more than gerrard did.
yeah sami is good in the air but gets stuffed on the ground when he is turned . skittle has pace and is good in the air so has time to develop . sami and carra were murdered by pace.

[account deleted by request]

Wern't we knocked out of the cup early last season by Barnsley ...... so we could concentrate on the other comps

We have spent £95 million since '06(not counting this season ) and we had a weak squad

Double figures ? Kuyt got 3 league goals last season..... one off his knee and 2 penalties and made 4 assists. 

Sami and Carra were murdered for pace ..... yet we conceeded less goals!

So in '06 we finished with MORE points, finished CLOSER to the eventual winners, CONCEEDED less goals, actually WON a cup, beat ALL our rivals, Finished HIGHER up the league. Finished within one point of second rather than 7points off third............. but we did better last season after spending a further £95million since '06 ?

[aCe']

good starting post

i agree that posession is important but what you do with posession is what eventually counts..
I think that our movement without the ball is awful to say the least. Every player in that team except for Torres when played alone upfront seems to want to play it safe sticking to their positions even when we have posession and are trying to unlock 11 men parked infront of their goal. I never see Alonso in the opposition penalty box or Arbeloa making darting runs behind opposition full backs unless hes on the ball (rarely that being).
Id like to see more creativity especially from wider areas. When you look at the Arsenal side you just stop and wonder, why the fck doesnt Alonso do what Denilson does, why dont we see Arbeloa and Dossena near the corner flag exchanging passes with the wingers ?
We'r too preditable atm to be champions ! any decent side can go into a game with liverpool thinkin they can come up with a draw if theyr solid at the back and dont make many mistakes. Hell im a liverpool fan and i think that !
Towards the end of last season we played a slightly different style .. a more 4-3-3 style with wingers attacking the far post which created more spaces for pretty much everyone else on the pitch to command more spaces. It worked well.
Anyways back to 4-4-2.
Until players like Gerrard, Kuyt and Riera/Babel + the fullbacks learn how and where to move when they dont have the ball at their feet im afraid we'll have to grind out results against every side we meet. Boring style or call it whatever you want to call it but under benitiez, cant really see us playing attacking football and going gung ho even if it was against the weaker sides.

[maypaxvobiscum]

Wern't we knocked out of the cup early last season by Barnsley ...... so we could concentrate on the other comps

We have spent £95 million since '06(not counting this season ) and we had a weak squad

Double figures ? Kuyt got 3 league goals last season..... one off his knee and 2 penalties and made 4 assists. 

Sami and Carra were murdered for pace ..... yet we conceeded less goals!

So in '06 we finished with MORE points, finished CLOSER to the eventual winners, CONCEEDED less goals, actually WON a cup, beat ALL our rivals, Finished HIGHER up the league. Finished within one point of second rather than 7points off third............. but we did better last season after spending a further £95million since '06 ?

oh no it was kuyt's determination to get him into those positions in the first place which created the goals. its worth 10mil each remember?

[account deleted by request]

i agree that posession is important but what you do with posession is what eventually counts..
I think that our movement without the ball is awful

Good post ace'

I think everyone will agree with this mate , especially with the point I highlighted

[maypaxvobiscum]

what movement?

[GYBS]

Wern't we knocked out of the cup early last season by Barnsley ...... so we could concentrate on the other comps

We have spent £95 million since '06(not counting this season ) and we had a weak squad

Double figures ? Kuyt got 3 league goals last season..... one off his knee and 2 penalties and made 4 assists. 

Sami and Carra were murdered for pace ..... yet we conceeded less goals!

So in '06 we finished with MORE points, finished CLOSER to the eventual winners, CONCEEDED less goals, actually WON a cup, beat ALL our rivals, Finished HIGHER up the league. Finished within one point of second rather than 7points off third............. but we did better last season after spending a further £95million since '06 ?

getting knocked out of the FA Cup is slightly different to getting knocked out of the CL dont you think .

and prefer to look at people states over the whole season not just one competition as the CL is pretty much just as important these days as the league is


will say it again IN 06 THE OTHER TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE WERE A LOT WEAKER THAN THEY OUR NOW IE BS,POMPEY,ARSENAL,MAN UTD,MAN CITY,VILLA,BLACKBURN  so the competition at that time was a lot weaker bar chelsea . yes we got more points cause we could finish the season strongly in the league due to the fact we werent playing in the cl as opposed to last season and the season before that . last years team would easily beat the one from 06 . we have progressed as a team but unofrtunatly for us other teams have progressed as well - its not really rocket science is it . we beat our rivals in the cup - yet lost n the leaue and even got a right stuffing at anfield by chelsea as opposed to the season after when we beat chelsea in the league and last year drew with them only down to a ref .

[account deleted by request]

getting knocked out of the FA Cup is slightly different to getting knocked out of the CL dont you think .

WINNING the FA cup is slightly different than getting knocked out of the CL don't you think?

will say it again IN 06 THE OTHER TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE WERE A LOT WEAKER THAN THEY OUR NOW IE BS,POMPEY,ARSENAL,MAN UTD,MAN CITY,VILLA,BLACKBURN  so the competition at that time was a lot weaker bar chelsea

And you base this on what ? Lowest league points by a team ...... Derby last season 11.

'06 - 11 teams got OVER 50 points with 6 getting over 60 points, last season 9 teams got over 50 points with 6 teams getting over 60 points ........... hardly a vast improvement there?

last years team would easily beat the one from 06

Yet they let in more goals, lost to Barnsley, were lucky to get a draw at Luton, lost to Besiktas, struggled badly against Havant and finished with less points. (Maybe the non-league and the lower divisions are much stronger now too)

Put Torres in the '06 team and it wouldn't even be a game mate.

we beat our rivals in the cup - yet lost n the league and even got a right stuffing at anfield by chelsea

You mean like last season when we got pasted at the mancs?

[Fo Dne]

And as for your request, I agree posession is important. The next most important thing is to recover the ball as quick as possible, something we did better a couple of seasons ago rather than now.

That would have been around the time that Sissoko was in his pomp Sabes. I maintain he was probably the best ball stealer behind enemy lines in World football at the time. Now that was a central midfield pairing with balance, Sissoko and Alonso.

Would that team beat the team of today I wonder, with Gerrard in that team on the right.

That team would on this team probably by three or four goals on a regular basis the gap is so big. Both player for player and as a balanced team.

torrres would rip a new into carra and sami - masher would have sissoko for breakfast . riise would spend all day hitting row z from 40 yards and skittles and agger would have crouch in there back pocket - skittles in the air and agger on the ground.Its amazing how you say the gap is so big when the team we have now is closing in on the front two despite the other teams improving their player quality by millions upon millions.

05-06  ------------08-09

Pepe  ------------  pepe          Draw
Finnan ------------ Arbeloa      Finnan
Carra --------------Carra         Draw
Sami --------------Agger/Skittles Draw
Riise  --------------Dossena       Draw

Gerrard ------------Pennant/Kuyt          Gerrard
Momo-------------- Masher          Masher
Xabi  ---------------Xabi               Draw
Kewell --------------Babel or whoever  Babel

Crouch -------------Torres              Torres
Morentis------------Keane               Keane

Cisse----------------Kuyt                Kuyt


So would like to know how the team back them would stuff the present team by 3/4 goals every game and how you can decide that on 3 games this season so far .

How you can sit there and say Sami is equal to Agger and Skyrtel is absoloutely unbelievable.

Not even a comparrison. Hyypia at his best was one of the best around, not some average pass of who's rated only by some of our own fans.

You then say Babel is better than Kewell... at what?

Babel's a disgrace to the shirt and a pile of . Kewell was an excellent player when fit and created chances and helped with ball retention.

Then you completely fail to leave out Fowler who was also a massively important part of the team. You also neglect to mention the balance of the team and the fact that team acheived 82 points in the league.

Listen lad, keep livin in ya fantasy world and stick to pro evo and champ manager because when it comes to real life football you don't have the foggiest.

[Fo Dne]

Wern't we knocked out of the cup early last season by Barnsley ...... so we could concentrate on the other comps

We have spent £95 million since '06(not counting this season ) and we had a weak squad

Double figures ? Kuyt got 3 league goals last season..... one off his knee and 2 penalties and made 4 assists. 

Sami and Carra were murdered for pace ..... yet we conceeded less goals!

So in '06 we finished with MORE points, finished CLOSER to the eventual winners, CONCEEDED less goals, actually WON a cup, beat ALL our rivals, Finished HIGHER up the league. Finished within one point of second rather than 7points off third............. but we did better last season after spending a further £95million since '06 ?

Owned...