Liverpool FC Forum

[god_bless_john_houlding]

great opinion on Sami Hyypia pal...next time though can you keep it to saying how highly you rate Hyypia...since that's kinda the point of the topic. There's a good lad, if you can do that, just this once then I'll buy you a mars bar. Hows that sound? Deal?

Anyway back to the point, Hyypia has been a legend for us. At the start of the season I asked if we should give him his testimonial year out of sentiment, I'm glad to say we haven't had to give it to him out of sentiment but rather because he's earned it. A great player of recent years and possibly our greatest ever import from abroad. In terms of what he cost to what we've gotten out of him, there's not many who come close to Sami. A great servant and a man very worthy of wearing the Liverpool shirt.

[LFC2007]

Sure I didn't give my views on Sami, did I?

I refer you to my previous answers.

WUM 

[LegBarnes]

sami is one of my fav defenders of all time just behind hanson and razor.

Even now no one can touch him 1v1 in the air and he has fanstastic passing which is also hanson like and almost 10 years he has done us proud top player top professional top bloke ! 

I can only really see him playing part in team for 1 more season after that i hope he stays and teaches the young lads to defend as i can see him being a great coach.

YNWA sami

[JBG]

GBJH moments

[god_bless_john_houlding]

GBJH moments

i'd be hard pushed to have anything else wouldn't i? I mean surely since I am GBJH, I can only have those moments.

Well done

[Owzat]

He was immense for many seasons, the last few his lack of pace has been exposed. He's still a good defender, good in the air, but he's losing it and is a liability at times. No challenge even on Walnut was pretty bad, could easily have cost us a semi place. Maybe that is overshadowed by his goal, if that had gone over people would probably have given him a 4 or 5 out of 10 tops for the same performance regardless of the result.

I'm just amazed more sides don't put a speedster up against Hyypia. And from set pieces you have to wonder if he gets zonal marking, one or two set pieces have been scored where he should have been marking. And Berbatov managed to best him in the air, both spudz' goals at Anfield came from him beating Hyypia in the air. He's not the defender he was, still able to do a job just about, but he is a weakness that is there to be exploited.

So yes, full credit that he is doing a good job at his age, but let's not get carried away with sentiment. He's cost us a few goals this season, both Arsenal's goals came down the left and Sami of old would have snuffed out both attacks, and while he's doing a decent job you have to think Agger will replace him when fit.

In the 46 games during 06/07 through to the start of 07/08 in which Agger played 39, Liverpool kept 27 clean sheets and conceded 34 goals. Since then the defence has conceded 35 goals in 42 games, but more crucially has kept just 17 clean sheets. This season is by far our lowest percentage of clean sheets under Rafa since his first. Maybe coincidence, probably not.

[Bad Bob]

He was immense for many seasons, the last few his lack of pace has been exposed. He's still a good defender, good in the air, but he's losing it and is a liability at times. No challenge even on Walnut was pretty bad, could easily have cost us a semi place. Maybe that is overshadowed by his goal, if that had gone over people would probably have given him a 4 or 5 out of 10 tops for the same performance regardless of the result.

I'm just amazed more sides don't put a speedster up against Hyypia. And from set pieces you have to wonder if he gets zonal marking, one or two set pieces have been scored where he should have been marking. And Berbatov managed to best him in the air, both spudz' goals at Anfield came from him beating Hyypia in the air. He's not the defender he was, still able to do a job just about, but he is a weakness that is there to be exploited.

So yes, full credit that he is doing a good job at his age, but let's not get carried away with sentiment. He's cost us a few goals this season, both Arsenal's goals came down the left and Sami of old would have snuffed out both attacks, and while he's doing a decent job you have to think Agger will replace him when fit.

In the 46 games during 06/07 through to the start of 07/08 in which Agger played 39, Liverpool kept 27 clean sheets and conceded 34 goals. Since then the defence has conceded 35 goals in 42 games, but more crucially has kept just 17 clean sheets. This season is by far our lowest percentage of clean sheets under Rafa since his first. Maybe coincidence, probably not.

Well, to be fair, Berbatov made John Terry look an absolute chump in the air a couple of weeks back too and I wouldn't say Terry's past it.  Sami's obviously past his absolute peak but he's still a rock solid defender.

[maguskwt]

He was immense for many seasons, the last few his lack of pace has been exposed. He's still a good defender, good in the air, but he's losing it and is a liability at times. No challenge even on Walnut was pretty bad, could easily have cost us a semi place. Maybe that is overshadowed by his goal, if that had gone over people would probably have given him a 4 or 5 out of 10 tops for the same performance regardless of the result.

I'm just amazed more sides don't put a speedster up against Hyypia. And from set pieces you have to wonder if he gets zonal marking, one or two set pieces have been scored where he should have been marking. And Berbatov managed to best him in the air, both spudz' goals at Anfield came from him beating Hyypia in the air. He's not the defender he was, still able to do a job just about, but he is a weakness that is there to be exploited.

So yes, full credit that he is doing a good job at his age, but let's not get carried away with sentiment. He's cost us a few goals this season, both Arsenal's goals came down the left and Sami of old would have snuffed out both attacks, and while he's doing a decent job you have to think Agger will replace him when fit.

In the 46 games during 06/07 through to the start of 07/08 in which Agger played 39, Liverpool kept 27 clean sheets and conceded 34 goals. Since then the defence has conceded 35 goals in 42 games, but more crucially has kept just 17 clean sheets. This season is by far our lowest percentage of clean sheets under Rafa since his first. Maybe coincidence, probably not.

oh but walcott's run was quite something... hyppia's mistake was that he decided to remain static and tried to snatch the ball away from the guy...

btw... any chance we can snatch theo walcott from under wenger's nose?  ...

[stmichael]

btw... any chance we can snatch theo walcott from under wenger's nose?  ...

he should be a liverpool player anyway. we lost out due to our unwillingness to pay an extra £500,000.

[Owzat]

"Walcott's run was quite something" - a straight line more than a zig zag dribble with no challenge whatsoever from start to finish, I suppose that is "something". In fairness Aurelio did try and foul him, but either decided against it or fouled it up. But in essence there wasn't a challenge made worthy of the description.

BB- "solid" may be a little too generous, he was solid at his peak. Now he's one of "solid at times", "solid most of the time", "solid but for a few lapses" or whatever not quite solid is. Maybe not quite rock solid, more quite hard cheese solid

[JC_81]

He was immense for many seasons, the last few his lack of pace has been exposed. He's still a good defender, good in the air, but he's losing it and is a liability at times. No challenge even on Walnut was pretty bad, could easily have cost us a semi place. Maybe that is overshadowed by his goal, if that had gone over people would probably have given him a 4 or 5 out of 10 tops for the same performance regardless of the result.

I'm just amazed more sides don't put a speedster up against Hyypia. And from set pieces you have to wonder if he gets zonal marking, one or two set pieces have been scored where he should have been marking. And Berbatov managed to best him in the air, both spudz' goals at Anfield came from him beating Hyypia in the air. He's not the defender he was, still able to do a job just about, but he is a weakness that is there to be exploited.

So yes, full credit that he is doing a good job at his age, but let's not get carried away with sentiment. He's cost us a few goals this season, both Arsenal's goals came down the left and Sami of old would have snuffed out both attacks, and while he's doing a decent job you have to think Agger will replace him when fit.

In the 46 games during 06/07 through to the start of 07/08 in which Agger played 39, Liverpool kept 27 clean sheets and conceded 34 goals. Since then the defence has conceded 35 goals in 42 games, but more crucially has kept just 17 clean sheets. This season is by far our lowest percentage of clean sheets under Rafa since his first. Maybe coincidence, probably not.

I admire your use of stats mate, but they don't tell the whole story, and certainly do not suggest that Hyypia is the reason why we have kept less clean sheets this season.

Yes Agger is a loss and Hyypia did have a shaky start to regular first team football earlier this season, as is to be expected when you haven't played regularly in over a season.  I would argue though that Hyypia has got better as the season's gone on and in recent months has been playing some of his best football in a Liverpool shirt.

As for our reduced number of clean sheets this season, I'd also point to the facts that we have had to bed in a new centre back in Skrtel, had a long term injury to our previously regular right back in Steve Finnan, had to deal with the complete loss of form of Riise, the recent dip in form of Reina and the continual rotation of players occupying the two full-back slots.  We were so short on defenders due to injury that we have also played Arbeloa and the youngster Hobbs at centre back in Premier league games this season.  In fact the back four has had to be shuffled so much that Carragher is the one for me that has noticeably been performing below his best this season.  There was a period of 5 or 6 games in which Carra seemed to inexplicably handle the ball in every game, with most fortunately going unpunished.  Then there were the games at Reading and West Ham where Carra was caught out of position only to have to give away fouls giving the opposition crucial penalties which lost us points.

Yet despite all that we have only conceded 25 league goals in 33 league games.  Just 2 more goals conceded than Chelsea, with United having the clear best defence with 17 conceded.  Despite many on here professing that Toure and Gallas are both world class centre halves that would walk into our side, Arsenal have a worse defensive record in the league than us.

So in summary, I would say that there are plenty of reasons/excuses (whatever way you want to say it) why we have kept less clean sheets this season, and to simply point to Hyypia being the reason is blinkered.

[stmichael]

In fact the back four has had to be shuffled so much that Carragher is the one for me that has noticeably been performing below his best this season.  There was a period of 5 or 6 games in which Carra seemed to inexplicably handle the ball in every game, with most fortunately going unpunished.  Then there were the games at Reading and West Ham where Carra was caught out of position only to have to give away fouls giving the opposition crucial penalties which lost us points.

With regards to Carragher you also have to point out that Benitez likes a right and left footed centre back combination. I don't like him there but Carragher is a far better fullback than Skrtel so you lose less by moving him than Skrtel. I don't think Carra's move to right back can necessarily mean he's been replaced by Skrtel. I think had Agger been fit, Skrtel would have seen less first team action - as would Hyypia.

[Owzat]

I admire your use of stats mate, but they don't tell the whole story, and certainly do not suggest that Hyypia is the reason why we have kept less clean sheets this season.

Yes Agger is a loss and Hyypia did have a shaky start to regular first team football earlier this season, as is to be expected when you haven't played regularly in over a season.  I would argue though that Hyypia has got better as the season's gone on and in recent months has been playing some of his best football in a Liverpool shirt.

As for our reduced number of clean sheets this season, I'd also point to the facts that we have had to bed in a new centre back in Skrtel, had a long term injury to our previously regular right back in Steve Finnan, had to deal with the complete loss of form of Riise, the recent dip in form of Reina and the continual rotation of players occupying the two full-back slots.  We were so short on defenders due to injury that we have also played Arbeloa and the youngster Hobbs at centre back in Premier league games this season.  In fact the back four has had to be shuffled so much that Carragher is the one for me that has noticeably been performing below his best this season.  There was a period of 5 or 6 games in which Carra seemed to inexplicably handle the ball in every game, with most fortunately going unpunished.  Then there were the games at Reading and West Ham where Carra was caught out of position only to have to give away fouls giving the opposition crucial penalties which lost us points.

Yet despite all that we have only conceded 25 league goals in 33 league games.  Just 2 more goals conceded than Chelsea, with United having the clear best defence with 17 conceded.  Despite many on here professing that Toure and Gallas are both world class centre halves that would walk into our side, Arsenal have a worse defensive record in the league than us.

So in summary, I would say that there are plenty of reasons/excuses (whatever way you want to say it) why we have kept less clean sheets this season, and to simply point to Hyypia being the reason is blinkered.

I did not in any way a) suggest stats tell the whole story or b) simply point to Hyypia. We are discussing Hyypia and I used stats to show that our defence has been weaker this season.

Your speculation that there are "plenty of reasons/excuses" blatantly, you might say in a blinkered way, overlooks the fact that those reasons/excuses aren't exclusive to this season ie you could make up a hatful of excuses ANY season.

[JC_81]

I did not in any way a) suggest stats tell the whole story or b) simply point to Hyypia. We are discussing Hyypia and I used stats to show that our defence has been weaker this season.

Your speculation that there are "plenty of reasons/excuses" blatantly, you might say in a blinkered way, overlooks the fact that those reasons/excuses aren't exclusive to this season ie you could make up a hatful of excuses ANY season.

I'm not talking about 'any season' though.  I'm talking about this season.

For the sake of argument though, let's take last season.  Can you list an equal number of disruptions to our defensive unit to what I have listed for this season?  Can you prove your own point?

I suspect you won't be able to, which will highlight the fact that this season has been very unusual in that we've had to deal with an obscene number of disruptions to our defence compared with previous years when as you have stated we kept more clean sheets.

And as to your statement that you 'did not simply point to Hyypia as the reason for our defence keeping less clean sheets this season', you obviously saw it as a significant factor or you would not have made that post in this thread.

[Bad Bob]

In fact the back four has had to be shuffled so much that Carragher is the one for me that has noticeably been performing below his best this season.  There was a period of 5 or 6 games in which Carra seemed to inexplicably handle the ball in every game, with most fortunately going unpunished.  Then there were the games at Reading and West Ham where Carra was caught out of position only to have to give away fouls giving the opposition crucial penalties which lost us points.

I'd agree that Carra hasn't been at his magisterial best this season.  In fact, I think there's a case to be made that Sami's actually been our best defender all season.  I'm sure there will be some stats provided to pull me up on that one but the perception lingers, nonetheless.