Liverpool FC Forum

[Sabre]

Yes, I didn't comment that because it's obvious that talking about the content of a post, it's acceptable, where as continuous personal attacks, isn't.

I agree that aswell. I'm used to more heavily moderated forums aswell, but I know this is a football forum and it's different, and I also haven't problems to live in a dialectic jungle... What it shouldn't happen in any forum is that 2 or 3 users hijack a thread constantly and make other users refrain from posting in that thread.

Anyway, I quite agree your concept about competition.  and it's well explained.

[Penguins]

Well, when you have 1 genuine left midfielder(who I rely absolutely 0% on) and 1 genuine right winger and 5 CM that makes a team much worse than if you had at least 2 wingers on each side you can rely on and 3-4 CM.

And I do not believe we have £100m and do not need to sell any player at all.
No competition when always injured Kewell and average pennant are the only real wingers we got.
Then Gerrard, Masch, Alonso, Momo and Lucas all good to great CM.

HOW does that make sense? ?
I agree competition is good but you need just as many quality wingers as quality CM. And I rank all CM higher than any of our wingers.

I see that as a big problem!
Agree, disagree, but no need to insult my opinion and say I speak drivel.

[redtrader74]

I cannot understand why some posters believe that a squad full of depth is a problem, ffs most of the EPL would want our midfield. Also whats the point of saying that there will be problems with having the competition.... wtf is Rafa paid to do?? he chose them, his problem to solve, i dare say he has a plan, he didn't just accumalate the players by fluke.

I have said this before, but [/U]Mascherano is not owned by Liverpool, we have only secured his services for one more year[U] stop assuming that he will be here for years, he is on the most tenuous of contracts, Lucas is 20, from another country, he has to acclimatise to the English game. He is a sign of plannig for the future, a possible long term replacement.

Depending on who we buy, we might even play 3 in the middle, and hopefully play 65 games this season, will need players in the the most demanding area of the pitch.

[LFC2007]

Well, when you have 1 genuine left midfielder(who I rely absolutely 0% on) and 1 genuine right winger and 5 CM that makes a team much worse than if you had at least 2 wingers on each side you can rely on and 3-4 CM.

And I do not believe we have £100m and do not need to sell any player at all.
No competition when always injured Kewell and average pennant are the only real wingers we got.
Then Gerrard, Masch, Alonso, Momo and Lucas all good to great CM.

HOW does that make sense? ?
I agree competition is good but you need just as many quality wingers as quality CM. And I rank all CM higher than any of our wingers.

I see that as a big problem!
Agree, disagree, but no need to insult my opinion and say I speak drivel.

The issue of our centre mid's and our wingers is two different issues.

We can have 5 quality midfielders, midfielders who a have a diverse range of attrributes and who will be needed at some stage next season whilst at the same time having quality wimgers either side.

No-one I've spoken to on this forum thinks we have £100m to spend, and neither does anyone think there isn't a need to sell a few underperforming players.

There is a consensus that we'll have approximately £30-40m available and given we've only had around £20m in summers past (twinned with the fact that the owners were brough in to help fund the immediate playing squad among other things) I think that figure is a reasonable estimate to make.

Your post implies that we MUST sell one of our 5 midfielders in order to supplement our spending on the wings - it is simply not the case.

It is perfectly feasible for us to keep our midfield quintet, whilst also keeping Pennant and Kewell and to add a top class winger on either side to strengthen our wide positions.

Most people believe that Kewell, being fit, can make a significant contribution as can Pennant. That is not to say we shouldn't bring in two more top quality wingers to add competition and quality to those positions, but they are good cover and competition for whoever comes in.



Finally, you were the one who instigated the argument with your snidey remarks so please refrain from taking the moral highground on that one.

[Penguins]

If Rafa sells Alonso ahead of Sissoko I'll be very dissapointed in Rafa. And if just to keep Momo happy so he signs a new contract and lets him play ahead of Mascherano I am going to be even more dissapointed.

We have 5 CM and 4 wants regular football and no rotation.
But Lucas isn't some unknown prospect, but one of the best CM to come out of Brazil for years. Gerrard, masch and lucas isn't going anywhere 100%.

I don't want Gerrard at right wing and masch has shown he is the best midfielder we've got to take out the oppositions best players and protect the back 4.
Alonso might be  bit slow and suspect defensivly and his tackling is a bit off, but he's a brillant footballer with skills and passing. So he is a good player to have and he'll get enough games.
Then Momo and Lucas will be 2 very frustrated players next season cause I can not understand how Momo can be unhappy with his playing time this past season.
He played at least every other game and got games even after he had some poor ones. and letting a £8m signing sit on the bench or not even that would be a big waste of money and would alienate the player right away wanting him to leave for italy and Spain when given the chance.
And if Masch gets sacrificed just cause his long term future might be uncertain and then is let to leave I'll seriously question Liverpool and rafa's ambition since it's obvious that masch just oozes class.

This is one of the worst posts I've read.

IMO, it is utter SH!TE.

plz gimme a break!
Moral highground?
And it was you who started acting like a 10 year old.
You gave no answer to why you thought my opinion was wrong and just said the immature remarks.

And i'm not saying we must sell anyone.
But that it would be wise since they all can be sold for a nice sum.
We need 3 new wingers since i do not count Kewell as dependable for a season. And 2 of those at least top class.
That means 35-40 million at least.

If we do not keep masch I just see that as a utter failure, nothing more nothin less. He is a beast and will become even better. Those are the players we must do everything to keep.

We need new strikers, at least 1 top class. That would cost around everything from 20-40 million.

A new CB, RB and LB would also be nice since the depth isn't that great there either.
We have actually very little depth on all positions right now in the team except central mid. And selling one would give some much needed money, which I say would be a smart move.

[LFC2007]

If Rafa sells Alonso ahead of Sissoko I'll be very dissapointed in Rafa. And if just to keep Momo happy so he signs a new contract and lets him play ahead of Mascherano I am going to be even more dissapointed.

We have 5 CM and 4 wants regular football and no rotation.
But Lucas isn't some unknown prospect, but one of the best CM to come out of Brazil for years. Gerrard, masch and lucas isn't going anywhere 100%.

I don't want Gerrard at right wing and masch has shown he is the best midfielder we've got to take out the oppositions best players and protect the back 4.
Alonso might be  bit slow and suspect defensivly and his tackling is a bit off, but he's a brillant footballer with skills and passing. So he is a good player to have and he'll get enough games.
Then Momo and Lucas will be 2 very frustrated players next season cause I can not understand how Momo can be unhappy with his playing time this past season.
He played at least every other game and got games even after he had some poor ones. and letting a £8m signing sit on the bench or not even that would be a big waste of money and would alienate the player right away wanting him to leave for italy and Spain when given the chance.
And if Masch gets sacrificed just cause his long term future might be uncertain and then is let to leave I'll seriously question Liverpool and rafa's ambition since it's obvious that masch just oozes class.

This is one of the worst posts I've read.

IMO, it is utter SH!TE.

plz gimme a break!
Moral highground?
And it was you who started acting like a 10 year old.
You gave no answer to why you thought my opinion was wrong and just said the immature remarks.

And i'm not saying we must sell anyone.
But that it would be wise since they all can be sold for a nice sum.
We need 3 new wingers since i do not count Kewell as dependable for a season. And 2 of those at least top class.
That means 35-40 million at least.

If we do not keep masch I just see that as a utter failure, nothing more nothin less. He is a beast and will become even better. Those are the players we must do everything to keep.

We need a new striker, at least 1 top class. That would cost around everything from 20-40 million.

A new CB, RB and LB would also be nice since the depth isn't that great there either.
We have actually very little depth on all positions right now in the team except central mid. And selling one would give some much needed money, which I say would be a smart move.

Yes that's right Penguins IMO I think the content of that post is Sh!te, is that the same as saying "I think you are a CUN.T"?

No, it is strongly disagreeing with its CONTENT.


You on the contrary made a personal insult "And LFC2007, just cause you are on love with Kewell"

Childish?? I think that is childish.

Immature? I think that's immature.

Not that I give a sh!t about that, because it is just an ignorant and empty comment that lacks any relation to my opinions on Kewell.



As for your views on our wingers:


1) You say we need three wingers, I disagree about Kewell because I think (all being well and fit) that he can be more than adequate backup, more to the point - we have Leto coming in so that leaves 2 wingers. Would two wingers cost £35-40m? I don't think so, I believe we can sign two top wingers for £10-15m each. We would not be required to sell any of our midfielders, nor would I want us to, nor do I think we will. Central midfield is one of the most demanding positions, it is no co-incidence that Man Utd have just signed Hargreaves, Chelsea have just signed Sidwell to add to their plethora of midfielders and Arsenal have more centre mids than us.


2) "IF" we don't keep Masch? On what basis does this "IF" arise? He is on loan for the whole of next season - he has proven nothing in the league over a prolonged and meaningful period as yet. Next season we can assess his impact and his value fully. Until then, talking as if he is the be all and end all of our central midfield is unfounded. You speak as if we would be doomed if he didn't stay past next season - even when he hasn't had a sustained period in premier league games. If he delivers on his potential next season over the whole season - then we can start raving about how important it is to keep him.

3) If we paid £25-30m for two top class wingers, I'm sure Gillet and Hicks would fund the signing of a top striker who could cost £20m. They may even consider going one step further and provide £30m for a striker - all we know is they have a track record of spending big in America.

4) As for the other positions, I don't consider them urgent priorities. Our defence has been proven to be effective.

5) Overall I just completely disagree about a) the extent to which the squad needs strengthening esp in defence and b) the value you seem to place on potential transfer targets.

[Penguins]

Well, you make your points and I disagree with practically all of them.

For me when you disagree with someone you just say that and comes up with examples of why.

You do not say "I think your post is UTTER " with caps
and comes up with no reason why you disagree with the pst at all.

So I believe you went overboard 1st. And if you think the part about Kewell is an insult, then I'm sorry if you took it that harshly.

And then about wingers.
How anyone can believe we all of a sudden don't need a new winger in case kewell isn't available I can not understand.
And I disagree about a top class winger will cost 10-15 million.
I believe you are wrong. 15-20 for a top class winger.
And Leto cost 2 million and is a real maybe.
So 2 top class wingers and and extra backup (6-8) makes it 30-40 million in my book.

And how can we afford not to keep Masch??
he has had enough performances this season to show he is class. He has played vs the best (Arsenal, Chelski, Milan) and been amongst the best every game.
I do not see we not signing him as an option, simple as.

And a top class striker would be £20m+ and that would be if we just sign 1. We know nothing about exactly how much is available but 30-40 at most. That is what I believe.

We have 1 RB, 2 LB(but aurelio is never fit) and 3 CB who is good enough. Arbeloa is a big maybe. That for me are too few at the back and we lack depth there.
A couple of new signings for £10-15m would help alot if we loose one of our defenders by injury.

That makes it 65-70 million which I see we could need to increase squad depth. And when we got 5 CM in place I see selling 1 as a good choice if it could help other areas of the team.
Sure, this is under the asumption that the players cost that much and that we do not have unlimted funds.
But that is a must since we do not know such facts, one way or the other.

[LFC2007]

How anyone can believe we all of a sudden don't need a new winger in case kewell isn't available I can not understand.
And I disagree about a top class winger will cost 10-15 million.
I believe you are wrong. 15-20 for a top class winger.
And Leto cost 2 million and is a real maybe.
So 2 top class wingers and and extra backup (6-8) makes it 30-40 million in my book.

And how can we afford not to keep Masch??
he has had enough performances this season to show he is class. He has played vs the best (Arsenal, Chelski, Milan) and been amongst the best every game.
I do not see we not signing him as an option, simple as.

And a top class striker would be £20m+ and that would be if we just sign 1. We know nothing about exactly how much is available but 30-40 at most. That is what I believe.

We have 1 RB, 2 LB(but aurelio is never fit) and 3 CB who is good enough. Arbeloa is a big maybe. That for me are too few at the back and we lack depth there.
A couple of new signings for £10-15m would help alot if we loose one of our defenders by injury.

That makes it 65-70 million which I see we could need to increase squad depth. And when we got 5 CM in place I see selling 1 as a good choice if it could help other areas of the team.
Sure, this is under the asumption that the players cost that much and that we do not have unlimted funds.
But that is a must since we do not know such facts, one way or the other.

I reacted to what I considered a Sh!te post, then I gave my reasons why.


I go by evidence and logic when I form my opinions, and they seem to be invariably in line with most people on this forum - give or take minor details.




Back to the post:


1) I'd say the law of averages means Kewell is due an injury free season, and I hope he is.

2) We have Leto coming in if Kewell is injured, we also have Riise and Aurelio who if need be can play left mid. Supplemented with a top class winger I'd say we're covered.

3) Going by the EVIDENCE of what Rafa said in one of his post Athens interviews, words to the effect of "we haven't been able to spend £10-15m on individual players before". Then I'd say that's an indication of how much a winger will cost seeing as the only positions of significance where we need to strengthen are with a Striker and on the wings.

4) I don't think Rafa will spend £15-20 each on two wingers, likewise I don't think he'll buy another left mid in the 6-8m range. Evidence: LFC physios have flown with Kewell to Australia's training camp to assist.

5) As for Mascherano, he's played under 10 games for us, none of which were meaningful premiership games. You use the argument that he's performed very well against Chelsea, Arsenal, Milan. I could say the same about Sissoko vs. Chelsea and Barcelona, a player you don't rate. Only when Mascherano has completed a full season will we be able to judge whether we must do all we can to keep him - simple logic.


6) We don't know that we just have £30-40m to spend nor do we know that a striker will definitely cost £20m+. Owen would cost £9m, Tevez £Loan/agents fees. Of the others, I see Eto'o as the only one who would cost anything like the money you suggest.


7) Has our defence been a problem? The stats. suggest not, the only thing you could argue from the stats is that we may lack character at the back for away games.


8) Given the things Rafa has come out in the press many times, just like Hicks and Gillett have, saying we need to add a 'few top players' then I consider it unlikely that our squad is going to be revamped to the extent which you are suggesting. I don't see us bringing in 3 defenders, 3 wingers and 2 strikers, nor do I think we need to in any way. We need IMO, 2 top wingers and a top striker, maybe a versatile defender but only if finances permit.

[Penguins]

1) Well, accoring to me Kewell is a player you can't count on.
Is never injury free and when you become older with so few games the last seasons it becomes easier to become injured again.

2)Leto for 2 million is in the same prece range as gonzales and not someone I'd like to rely on too much. Know very little of what he has achived and hasn't played at the highest lvl.
I don't really see Risse as a left winger at all. besides a good shot his crossing and dribbling is poor at best.
Aurelio is still more a LB than LW and he is very injury prone and hasn't shown much at all beacuse of that.

3)Just cause Rafa says "we haven't been able to spend £10-15m on individual players before", doesn't mean he will spend that. Ribery cost 17 million, Anderson, 17 and Nani 14 beacuse of his clause.
Those are the top class midfielders that has been sold so far.
WHY must then the top class we buy be so much cheaper?

4) I belive we must spend 15-20 million on 2 wingers each if we are to compete. We have no top class wingers right now and we need 1 for each side. At least I think so. About buying another one for 6-8 all comes back to Kewell.

5) No meaningful PL games? So Arsenal at home was what then? We won 4-1 and he was brilliant. He has been more than solid and we have lost 1 game with him in the side Vs Milan. I believe he has shown enough to warrant a starting place and that we pick up our option on him.

6)
A realiable top class striker would cost 20m+.
owen who hasn't played for 2 seasons for 9m isn't good business. Etoó, tevez, torres, villa are player we need if we are to compete. At least I think so and all will cost alot.
Bent, Owen etc is not enough and won't improve our squad to any greater extent.

7) Our defense was awful at the start of last season. But sure when all are fit our defense is strong.
But we were very lucky last season.
Finnan, carra, Agger, Risse all had very few injuries.
Try Arbeloa, Hyppia, Palleta, Aurelio as backup. I shudder at the thought. That is not title challenging depth.

8) I might not believe that so many players will come, but I believe it is needed cause of the lack of depth in all places except CM. And if we sold a few players which we can, finances would permit more strenghtening.

[aCe']

good discussion u2....good read... LFC i think if you quit all your "utter sht that post is" you can be taken more seriously around this forum... u have only been around for a couple of months or so.. to me... in most of ur replies you come out as childish and a bit offensive but i couldnt care less really... anyways back to the topic...

penguins i see where ur coming from but it seems as if we arent going to sell any of our central midfielders afterall ... personally..i would have preferred if we had sold one of alonso (the cash would have been nice) or sissoko (only needed for a few games the whole season) but seems like its not going to happen..

about ur discussion...
- i think that we definitely need a top class left winger...malouda -or any other clas left winger- for anywhere between 10-15mill would do...

- pennant has improved alot...and i think he can do a job in the right wing if hes played regularly...he has shown that he can do it and was vital for us in many games by the end of the season.. id personally rather we go out and get a top class right winger (alves, mancini, quaresma..20mill or so for any) but if we cant afford it..then i wouldnt be too dissapointed if pennant was given the chance...id say a backup right winger for 5-10mill (foeign youngster or something)

- our back four are solid to say the least but we seem to lack depth in that department... we would probably be better off signing a versatile defender who can play in the center aswell as say rightback...arbeloa isnt liverpool standard and from what i have seen...doesnt look likehe'll have many chances next season.. thats another 5-10mill if the player we sign is just cover and not 1st team..

- forwards...thats when it gets a little tricky... do we need one or two top class strikers... i think we will probably see ONE big name forward signing to play alongside Kuyt/Crouch... depending on who the player is...the transfer fee might range from 10mill(owen, bent) to 30-35mill(etoo, villa) ...would be brilliant if we could sign 2 top class strikers...1 of which wouldnt cost much (owen, saviola) and a world class one...

all in all that a maxium of 70mill or so... suppose we sell the likes of bellamy,cisse,zenden,gonzales for 15 mill or so...that still means that we need to fork out 55mill...if the transfer budget assumed is arounf 40 mill...that means that we are still 15mill short.. selling alonso would have covered it up...but since we are not selling... seems as though at least one of the mentioned signings will be sacrificed ...

before you say anything LFC....all the transfer fees and the assumed budgets are just hypothetical....for the sake of the argument...just take them for a given...

[Penguins]

Not going to disagree with that Ace as I agree about selling Alonso or momo would maybe make it possible to get more targets and improve the squad overall.

And i know we might not sell any CM but I still see it hard to keep all happy which I find important. We have no back up CM(at least no one will accept that role), like we have back up striker, LB, RB etc which makes it even worse.

And even though I agree Pennant has improved I don't think he's title challenge material. He scored 1 goal last season and that is very bad from a winger. let's just say we sold Momo for 10-15m. Instead as you say we get a rw backup for 5-10 we can now get a top class rw for 15-20 m like mancini,Alves, Quaresma and use pennant as backup.
So instead of

Pennant gerrard masch Malouda we could have

mancini Gerrard masch Malouda

We have still Alonso and Lucas as cover in CM and has improved the team overall.

Just MPV.

[LFC2007]

1) Well, accoring to me Kewell is a player you can't count on.
Is never injury free and when you become older with so few games the last seasons it becomes easier to become injured again.

2)Leto for 2 million is in the same prece range as gonzales and not someone I'd like to rely on too much. Know very little of what he has achived and hasn't played at the highest lvl.
I don't really see Risse as a left winger at all. besides a good shot his crossing and dribbling is poor at best.
Aurelio is still more a LB than LW and he is very injury prone and hasn't shown much at all beacuse of that.

3)Just cause Rafa says "we haven't been able to spend £10-15m on individual players before", doesn't mean he will spend that. Ribery cost 17 million, Anderson, 17 and Nani 14 beacuse of his clause.
Those are the top class midfielders that has been sold so far.
WHY must then the top class we buy be so much cheaper?

4) I belive we must spend 15-20 million on 2 wingers each if we are to compete. We have no top class wingers right now and we need 1 for each side. At least I think so. About buying another one for 6-8 all comes back to Kewell.

5) No meaningful PL games? So Arsenal at home was what then? We won 4-1 and he was brilliant. He has been more than solid and we have lost 1 game with him in the side Vs Milan. I believe he has shown enough to warrant a starting place and that we pick up our option on him.

6)
A realiable top class striker would cost 20m+.
owen who hasn't played for 2 seasons for 9m isn't good business. Etoó, tevez, torres, villa are player we need if we are to compete. At least I think so and all will cost alot.
Bent, Owen etc is not enough and won't improve our squad to any greater extent.

7) Our defense was awful at the start of last season. But sure when all are fit our defense is strong.
But we were very lucky last season.
Finnan, carra, Agger, Risse all had very few injuries.
Try Arbeloa, Hyppia, Palleta, Aurelio as backup. I shudder at the thought. That is not title challenging depth.

8) I might not believe that so many players will come, but I believe it is needed cause of the lack of depth in all places except CM. And if we sold a few players which we can, finances would permit more strenghtening.

1) We're just going to disagree on Kewell, he is due an injury free season.

2) We don't know what Leto is like, one thing I'm pretty sure of is that after Gonzales I think Rafa will have learnt about some of these South American players and what attributes are required - all I know is he is a tall pacey winger, at the very least his physique gives him more of an advantage over Gonzales to match the physical demands of the EPL. Riise can play left mid, as can Aurelio and they have done with success. At the very least they are very good back up.

3) Because Rafa mentioned fees of £10-15m that is an indication of the price range we are likely to be competing in. We could sign one for £12m and one for £18m either way it doesn't matter, its the quality not the price I'm interested in. You don't set out to look for players in a certain price range, you look for quality. You can get top class for £12m, just like you can make a top quality signing for £17m. It depends on many things such as timing.

4) We must spend X amount on the wing is not the issue, as above.

5) No meaningful EPL games, no games that counted significantly to what we are, that is a club that should be challenging for the title. The pressure at the start of a season to get it right from the word go is entirely different to a game against Arsenal when we were fighting for 3rd place and nothing more. He's played what 7 games? Nowhere near enough to judge him on a consistent basis in the EPL, I think that is reasonable enough logic, if reported correctly the option on him is at the end of the 18 month loan deal which makes adequate sense. He will warrant a starting place if Rafa deems him suitable for the game in question, you don't give players a blank guarantee that they will start next season after only 7 games for the club.

6) I am not saying I want Owen here, but his ability is unquestionable and his goalscoring prowess in this league is superb. I personally don't see us signing a striker for anything like the fees mentioned in the papers e.g. Eto'o £40m, Villa £40m..... crazy figures IMO and unlikely to go through. I don't rate Torres as anything like a £20m + signing, and Tevez is contracted to West Ham, his contract release clause is believed to be £40m, if we could get him on a loan with agents fees paid for then great.

7) The stats for the defense over TWO seasons prove my point, Hyypia is more than adequate backup, aurelio is a quality left back and Finnan rarely gets injured but yes maybe a versatile defender to supplement the defense would be good.

[LFC2007]

good discussion u2....good read... LFC i think if you quit all your "utter sht that post is" you can be taken more seriously around this forum... u have only been around for a couple of months or so.. to me... in most of ur replies you come out as childish and a bit offensive but i couldnt care less really... anyways back to the topic...

I've just about had enough of the sh!t that comes out of your mouth aCe.

I deemed the CONTENT of his post sh!t, not him, the CONTENT and if reasonable people read it I think they'd agree.

All this rubbish about "you haven't been around here long", who the FUC,K are you sitting behind a computer in Timbuk .ingtu pontificating about Liverpool, do you go to games?? I do, how many times do you go to Anfield, or should I say the BERNABEU.

A Real Madrid Supporter who also claims to support Liverpool who doesn't go to games, who isn't from this country, who sits behind a computer in cloud Cuckoo land smoking a Cigar with the words "I'm the don Corleone" printed on it.


You boost your footballing ego by pontificating on here, when in reality you don't go to games, you support another club, know sh!t about Liverpool and talk like Bart Simpson.

Get a room DUDE.

[maguskwt]

Well, when you have 1 genuine left midfielder(who I rely absolutely 0% on) and 1 genuine right winger and 5 CM that makes a team much worse than if you had at least 2 wingers on each side you can rely on and 3-4 CM.

funny thing we sometimes insists on having certain things...

did milan have any wingers? and how did they play?

[Ydde]

funny thing we sometimes insists on having certain things...

did milan have any wingers? and how did they play?

Well I read in a book (A Season on The Brink) that Rafa always wants to have wingers.

"2 dangerous wingers who works hard for the team. Wingers win you matches."

He was supposed to have said something like the above.