Liverpool FC Forum

[Judge]

Stu, I think this is a very good case in point as to why people struggle to take you seriously. You seem to have this odd delusion that your opinion carries more weight than anyone elses, and I'm afraid that's just not the case.

Ashton has been watched by countless clubs while he's been at Norwich, but no Prem club appear to be actively pursuing him at the moment. My guess is a combination of Norwich pricing him too highly, with Prem managers not willing to spend big for someone with limited experience at the top level.A lot of players known for delivering in front of goal in lower divisions - Earnshaw, Zamora, Boa Morte, f*ck it, even Goater - haven't exactly set the Prem on fire. Yes, players like Phillips and Andy Johnson have made the leap successfully and not looked out of place, but there aren't too many more strikers that have in recent years. Managers know that, and as the goals for column is pretty essential, they're going to be more inclined to bring in a couple of continentals for £2.5m a piece and hope that at least one of them works out.

You can't pay £5m+ for a guy that's only had 16 games in the Prem - Darren Bent got off to a stormer for Charlton earlier this season, but his goals dried up for a bit and his first month or so now looks like a purple patch. Maybe that's what Ashton was having when he first signed for Norwich last season.

My opinion on the guy is based on watching him, up close, a couple of times, and seeing him countless times on TV. I don't know who these "so called experts" you mention are, but I prefer to make my own mind up ta very much. I liked some of what he did, but he didn't blow me out of me seat, so there's no way I'd get too carried away about the guy. Good striker with good link up and hold up play, but nothing particularly outstanding. He looked good for Norwich, but then anyone that didn't put the ball out of play with their first touch looked good for Norwich. If you fail to take into account his surroundings, you're a f*cking mug. Big fish, little pond.He's a good player, but saying he's in the same class as Henry and Anelka is absolutely outrageous.

If I was a Blackburn fan, I'd be hoping the manager had a look and put a bit of £3-£4m in for the guy. I really don't see anyone above their level bothering though, to be honest.

If you think different, get your UEFA coaching badges and show all the Prem managers how it's done.

quality

[Puddy Heskey]

Its very hard to tell.sinama just hasnt played enough despite being there for a good while now.But on his luton performance alone he does warrant a bit of a run at least.I really think liverpool could be a world class outfit if we just had that one striker of class.Our keeper is sound as is our defence.and a good midfield that creates alot of chances.We just lack that killer instinct player like shevshenko,ronaldo,rooney,henry etc that can score 30+ a season and create goals from nothing.When we find him.Then we will be champions for a long time.Maybe this theo walcott fellow could be what were looking for.But as for sinama.He still looks like he has to potential to be a great and have his name in lights the world over.but i just dont think it will happen.But you never know.but a few months regular start and there is a possibility he could be what we needed all along.Hes got the skill,the finish and a bit of pace.he just needs expierence.

[115-1073096938]

Stu, I think this is a very good case in point as to why people struggle to take you seriously. You seem to have this odd delusion that your opinion carries more weight than anyone elses, and I'm afraid that's just not the case.

Ashton has been watched by countless clubs while he's been at Norwich, but no Prem club appear to be actively pursuing him at the moment. My guess is a combination of Norwich pricing him too highly, with Prem managers not willing to spend big for someone with limited experience at the top level.A lot of players known for delivering in front of goal in lower divisions - Earnshaw, Zamora, Boa Morte, f*ck it, even Goater - haven't exactly set the Prem on fire. Yes, players like Phillips and Andy Johnson have made the leap successfully and not looked out of place, but there aren't too many more strikers that have in recent years. Managers know that, and as the goals for column is pretty essential, they're going to be more inclined to bring in a couple of continentals for £2.5m a piece and hope that at least one of them works out.

You can't pay £5m+ for a guy that's only had 16 games in the Prem - Darren Bent got off to a stormer for Charlton earlier this season, but his goals dried up for a bit and his first month or so now looks like a purple patch. Maybe that's what Ashton was having when he first signed for Norwich last season.

My opinion on the guy is based on watching him, up close, a couple of times, and seeing him countless times on TV. I don't know who these "so called experts" you mention are, but I prefer to make my own mind up ta very much. I liked some of what he did, but he didn't blow me out of me seat, so there's no way I'd get too carried away about the guy. Good striker with good link up and hold up play, but nothing particularly outstanding. He looked good for Norwich, but then anyone that didn't put the ball out of play with their first touch looked good for Norwich. If you fail to take into account his surroundings, you're a f*cking mug. Big fish, little pond.He's a good player, but saying he's in the same class as Henry and Anelka is absolutely outrageous.

If I was a Blackburn fan, I'd be hoping the manager had a look and put a bit of £3-£4m in for the guy. I really don't see anyone above their level bothering though, to be honest.

If you think different, get your UEFA coaching badges and show all the Prem managers how it's done.

Ok, firstly you state "Ashton has been watched by countless clubs while at Norwich but no Prem club appear to be actively pursuing him at the moment. My guess is a combination of Norwich pricing him too highly, with Prem managers not willing to spend big for someone with limited experience at the top level". Experience? Did Owen at 17 have experience? Did Rooney have experience at 16? Did Fowler at 18? The answer... No they didn't, they had ability. Far more important, experience doesn't make you a great player. Also the fact that no-one's got the balls to take a "chance" on him proves what? That he's not good enough? I don't get where you were going with this point at all.

You also say "A lot of players known for delivering in front of goal in lower divisions - Earnshaw, Zamora, Boa Morte, f*ck it, even Goater - haven't exactly set the Prem on fire"... Well firstly, Zamora ain't doin to bad this year, Earnshaw scores goals when he actually plays and Boa Morte is Fulham's captain and his managers opinion best player. Also, i'm not on about average first division players like Akinbiyi or Zamora. I'm on about lads with ability, the ability to adapt and play at a higher level with better and against better players. You say how much time Ashton had on the ball, everytime i've seen the lad, even up close thats the thing that stands out most along with his eye for goal. He always has time, thats not luck, thats quality.

You're on about the players who haven't made the step up, theres loads. Jason Roberts, Nathan Ellington, great first division players but average in the premier league, i'm not on about this class of player. I'm on about players like Ashton, Bullard and Phillips who are international class players playing in the first division. International standard players can make the step up quite easily. Defoe was another, i was saying for ages when West Ham went down someone should sign him, he didn't set division one alight, however now most people would put him in the top 7 or 8 strikers in the country.

As for not being able to pay 5m+ for a lad who's not had 5 games in the premiership, well i'm sorry. But thats rubbish. If the lads good enough, they're worth every penny. Ask spurs fans and management if Defoe was worth 7m, ask Man Utd if Rooney was worth over 5 times the 5m you are quoting. If managers can't spot a players ability then thats clearly there own problem. Ashton is highly rated by Norwich for a reason, he was highly rated by Crewe for a reason. Before he left Crewe they were a mid table side, once he left they slipped very quickly and lost alot of games. They lost about 60% of there teams quality when Asthon left and there results this season and last back this up. Crewe fans will also back this up and more importantly, one man who can spot a player, Dario Gradi will back this up.

As for Bent he's clearly a premiership class player. Not in Ashton's class again, but clearly a premiership footballer. Also, his goals drying up? He's scored 14 goals this season lad in a Charlton side which is up and down like a yo-yo. He scored 7 in his first 6... He's still a good player. Another player who's better than the 14m Sissy that we have upfront.

You've seen him close up? I've seen him live about 4 or 5 times, i've seen him on tv plenty of times in both highlights and full matches

The reason he didn't blow you out of your seat is clear, you are expecting a Michael Owen type player or an Adriano or maybe a Ronaldinho. Tell you what lad, Crouch hasn't once blown me out of my seat but i can see the lads level of ability and can see the lad can play.

You say he's nothing outstanding, he hardly ever gives the ball away, his ability to finish with both feet and his head, composure infront of goal, and technical ability are far greater than the likes of Sissy.

Also, i'm not a mug for failing to take into account his surroundings at all. The only mug for actually taking that into account is yourself. A good player is a good player no matter where they are. The fact is f they have the ability in the first place to be a good player then thats all they need. Don't tell me the likes of Zidane wouldn't "adapt" to this country or Rooney would be a worse player in a Coventry team rather than Man Utd. The lad can't do it all on his own and the better the team around him and the more it plays to his strengths the better he would seem as a player.

As for "big fish in little pond" that was Shaun Wright-Phillips and Danny Murphy, i said many times last year Shaun Wright-Phillips wasn't he player he was made out to be,  he's gone to Chelsea and has been shown up for exactly what he is. A good player who was never in the same class as Duff or Robben or even Joe Cole. Danny Murphy, now to me at Charlton looked exactly the same player i'd seen for Liverpool, yet some people were saying why didn't he play this good for us, he did. Just we expect more.

As for taking the because i've coached young players and know a bit about the game and how bad some of these scouts are, well i'm sorry but this shows up what sort of person you are. Having seen many player i don't rate players unless they show EVERYTHING! Sissy shows pace, yet no composure, no brain, no strength even tho he's built like a brick house. He goes down under feeble challenges and his balance is shocking. He doesn't read the game either.

I know plenty about tactical movements and postional and link up play, you can't pass those courses without knowing about it. The fact is if you watch a premiership youth side like Arsenal or Man Utd compared to a 3rd division side you can see the class difference in the movement alone.

When you see players make a 5 yard run that opens up space, play a simple pass to the wing, read the flight of a ball better than an opposing player, have time on the ball, positions there touch and kil the ball properly, show the correct technique, and think three or four passes ahead then you know you are watching a player. Perfect example, a game last season against Man Utd, a long ball played to Ashton, he had his back to goal, Ferdinand coming from his right hand side, he saw McKenzie's run into the space were Ferdinand was, you could see that by the way he looked into the space, he knew he didn't have an angle to play that pass from the position he recieved the ball, so he layed it back into the path of Francis who was about 8 or 9 yards away, he had also spotted the pass was on. He made a decision to give the defender no chance and slipped the pass into McKenzie who'd made the run. The fact is a world beater would have come up with a sublime flick to get McKenzie through, an excellent player would have done the simple and effective thing, a player like Baros or Sissy wouldn't have spotted the gap in the first place.

I don't need to see a player in the premiership to judge there strength, technical ability, pace, power, heading ability, finishing ability or anything else. I can see it perfectly in the championship, infact i can see it division two aswell.

Ryan Taylor, used to play for Tranmere, now at Wigan, very good right back.

[Judge]

some facts, but plenty of assumptions stu

[115-1073096938]

Assumptions such as what?

[Judge]

The reason he didn't blow you out of your seat is clear, you are expecting a Michael Owen type player or an Adriano or maybe a Ronaldinho.

this is an assumption

[115-1073096938]

Fair enough

[A.B.]

Writing essays on here, eh Stu?

[yckatbjywtbiastkamb]

i dont think dean ashtons what i`d call class or anywhere near it tbh, i agree with the poster who said he reminded him of beattie.
he`s a decent player but he`s not in the same bracket as henry, rooney, gerrard etc. for me.

[115-1073096938]

i dont think dean ashtons what i`d call class or anywhere near it tbh, i agree with the poster who said he reminded him of beattie.
he`s a decent player but he`s not in the same bracket as henry, rooney, gerrard etc. for me.

Of course not, its insane to think a player who plays for Norwich could be any good.

How could any player outside any team in the top 6 in the premier league be even able to kick a ball? What was i thinking, i mean surely all class players are known straight away and they all play for great sides straight away and they all have a world class reputation straight away, its completely rediculous to suggest players like Ashton can come from the lower leagues and excell, i mean its not like anyones ever gone from Chester to Liverpool and become a legend or top scorer, or even Scunthorpe to Liverpool, any player who played for Scunthorpe must be rubbish and the best players always start and finish at great sides.

How silly of me to think otherwise...

[A.B.]

The sarcasm thread is in the General Discussion area.

[115-1073096938]

Aaaaahhhh A.B. that was nearly funny mate, i'll buy you a pint when ya old enough.

[A.B.]

Enough with the patrionizing b#llocks.

[115-1073096938]

oooooooooo someone can make a joke but can't take one...

[A.B.]

Jokes are supposed to be funny