Liverpool FC Forum

[Stu the Red]

Stu - Kompany is a class act and he took his header brilliantly. Harsh to simply blame Skytel. And as for Mingolet's gift your blaming Skrtel for that as well. I assume your suggesting that Skytel should have cut the ball out knowing that Mign was going to make a schoolboy error. As for Sakho he had a spell in the game when he was so bad that it was the equivalent to having the yips.

Sahko had three or four wild passes in 10 minutes, apart from that had a good game.

The first goal he was too busy wanting to swap shirts rather than trying to win the header. I can almost forgive that one if he'd have at least challenged Kompany, instead he didn't.

The second goal, I'm sorry but Skrtel made a complete and utter balls up of a situation that was being controlled perfectly by Sahko. These are the basic error's I'm talking about and the ones I can't forgive or look past.

Skrtel ran across the pitch towards the ball instead of holding his position, Sahko was forcing Navas wide and had him exactly where he wanted him until Skrtel decides he's going to mess it up by being a complete clown. If Skrtel does what most Evo Stick centre half does in that situation and runs back in a straight line towards our goal, Navas can never play that pass, as soon as he moves across the pitch, he takes both himself and Sahko completely out of the game and allows Navas an easy pass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzjqhHTa56s

Watch the goal again, see Skrtel's shocking decision after 2 seconds on the clip.

Look at Skrtel's starting position for that goal, its absolutely nail on head perfect, if he holds that line, that shot never gets away as the pass isn't on. That pass never gets played by Navas and if it does, he's got all day to take a touch and lay it back to the keeper.

If he runs back in a straight line, Sahko is forcing Navas wide, even though he's 5 or 6 yards away meaning the play has to develop. He is then contributing positively to forcing Navas wide as well and leaving him with a tougher decision.

At times you hear people saying about Arsenal "over passing" or "trying to walk it in"... well this in defending terms is the opposite of that, you're allowing the opposition the easiest route towards goal by doing this. The more passes you make them make before a shot, the more chances you have to stop them. The problem with this was as soon as Skrtel moves across the pitch, horrizontally instead of running back towards his own goal in a basic straight line, he leaves an easy ball on for Navas which he plays perfectly. Its absolutely amaturish, you DO NOT CROSS over and get caught vertically from a counter attack. Not ever.

The mistake he made isn't the first time and it won't be the last, he keeps doing it and these types of mistakes have been very regular since his debeut and are the reason I don't rate the lad, I don't even see Evo stick level players making this type of error as much as he does and it is a massive source of frustration as he has some other decent attributes. He's done it so many times through out his Liverpool career and it goes unnoticed by a lot of people due to a lack of understanding.

[RedAnt]

Toure is a squad play with masses of experience. He's made a couple of mistakes. Everyone does. As is widely accepted though, a 'keeper or defenders mistake will be far more obvious and glaring, whilst other can shoot wide or misplace a pass and we can all shrug it off. I feel a lil sorry for him. He works hard and usually has a smile on his face. Let's hope that's his error quota for the season out of the way with.

[devaney]

Interesting analysis mate but for all Skrtel's shortcomings that you highlight it was still an awful mistake by Mign that resulted in a goal. At the end of the day it's a team game and if one player fks up then it is up to a team mate to do their very best to sort out the problem. Unfortunately Mign on that occasion produced his very worst !!

[Stu the Red]

Interesting analysis mate but for all Skrtel's shortcomings that you highlight it was still an awful mistake by Mign that resulted in a goal. At the end of the day it's a team game and if one player fks up then it is up to a team mate to do their very best to sort out the problem. Unfortunately Mign on that occasion produced his very worst !!

This is why I'm "so harsh" though mate on these players. They're amateurish mistakes. Anyone can have a howler, anyone can royally f*ck up the most basic of situations but when you see a defender doing things like that time and time and time again it starts to grate. He does it all the time, his positioning, team work, decisions and concentration are quite frankly at times embarrassing. Sometimes we get away with it due to others covering him but it usually happens four or five times a game which is a hell of a lot more than I've seen most centre halves that play for us make.

It was a pathetic decision from Skrtel, the lad is one of the least intelligent top flight defenders I've ever seen and Mignolet was left exposed. We all know he should have done better and tried his usual camera save and ***** it up... but the fact is, if he hadn't been left that exposed in the first place his mistake never happens.

The better the players you have, the less consecutive mistakes you make, the less goals you concede. Unfortunately, our keeper and centre halves aren't upto it, hence we're conceding more than a goal a game.

[Stu the Red]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsPDeTBF6Jo

Another one...

Swansea goal earlier in the season, as Soon as Sahko leaves the defensive line on 5 seconds any decent centre half closes the gap up which he just left, had he done this earlier he'd have been free of blame again as it would have resulted in it being Johnson's responsibility to pick up Michu, instead he stands still and points.... nothing worse than pointing as a defender, communicate properly for ***** sake. 

Because he reacts rather than see's the danger he leaves a big gap for Shelvey to run into, which he obliges. Skrtel doesn't make the challenge on Shelvey again, due to his poor anticipation and positional play not allowing him to be close enough to do so. Most premier league centre half's would have easily read that situation a lot better than he did.

If Skrtel gets a challenge in on Shelvey, I'd have said that was a great goal rather than poor defending. The fact there was no challenge, again highlights his weaknesses.

Sahko makes the first error, but Sahko's error isn't a big one, also being the debeut you can forgive a lack of communication with Lucas meaning he could stay in the back line.

The more I see of these, the more I want him out.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

Toure is a squad play with masses of experience. He's made a couple of mistakes. Everyone does. As is widely accepted though, a 'keeper or defenders mistake will be far more obvious and glaring, whilst other can shoot wide or misplace a pass and we can all shrug it off. I feel a lil sorry for him. He works hard and usually has a smile on his face. Let's hope that's his error quota for the season out of the way with.

To be fair to toure kompany gave away an even more bizarre own goal on that same pitch a few weeks ago so the poor surface probably had a lot to do with it but he just looks a bit rattled ATM.

[Stu the Red]

Toure is a squad play with masses of experience. He's made a couple of mistakes. Everyone does. As is widely accepted though, a 'keeper or defenders mistake will be far more obvious and glaring, whilst other can shoot wide or misplace a pass and we can all shrug it off. I feel a lil sorry for him. He works hard and usually has a smile on his face. Let's hope that's his error quota for the season out of the way with.

To be fair to toure kompany gave away an even more bizarre own goal on that same pitch a few weeks ago so the poor surface probably had a lot to do with it but he just looks a bit rattled ATM.

Forgot about that. Kompany's was f*cking quality, Hart had no chance.

Some of the defending this season though has been shocking. There is only Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea who've looked anything like capable in defence. (Spurs have had four hammerings which make their goals conceded collumb look worse than it would originally be).

[RedAnt]

True, quality defenders are extremely rare these days anyway. Football has evolved in attacking sense but stayed almost the same, defensively. Most of my generation (I'm 37) held the spirit of of the game to heart, at least in England. Feigning injury and going to ground at any sort of contact would have had your team mates on your case, never made the opposition players.

But now, modern society has us breaking everything down and analysing it. People began to see rules based on contact with almost a lawyers eye. Originally of course, the rule was there to stop players bulldozing each other. It wasn't put in place to add a touch of spice to the game. So you can whack a player if you touch the ball first. A tackle rather than an assault. The rule never really changed, but the spin on it has. Now it's an attackers toy. If contact is made, it's an attackers job to hit the ground, wether the defender made contact or not. It's then the referee's job to decide which was touched first, man or ball, and woe betide him if he gets it wrong!

So refs get the sh*tty end of the stick, and so do defenders who risk cards and penalties. For attackers, it's virtually risk free and so well worth a punt.

Anyway, now defenders need to evolve to cope with it. Some are struggling. I imagine being a defender at the top is a nerve wracking game now, especially in the box.

[Stu the Red]

True, quality defenders are extremely rare these days anyway. Football has evolved in attacking sense but stayed almost the same, defensively. Most of my generation (I'm 37) held the spirit of of the game to heart, at least in England. Feigning injury and going to ground at any sort of contact would have had your team mates on your case, never made the opposition players.

But now, modern society has us breaking everything down and analysing it. People began to see rules based on contact with almost a lawyers eye. Originally of course, the rule was there to stop players bulldozing each other. It wasn't put in place to add a touch of spice to the game. So you can whack a player if you touch the ball first. A tackle rather than an assault. The rule never really changed, but the spin on it has. Now it's an attackers toy. If contact is made, it's an attackers job to hit the ground, wether the defender made contact or not. It's then the referee's job to decide which was touched first, man or ball, and woe betide him if he gets it wrong!

So refs get the sh*tty end of the stick, and so do defenders who risk cards and penalties. For attackers, it's virtually risk free and so well worth a punt.

Anyway, now defenders need to evolve to cope with it. Some are struggling. I imagine being a defender at the top is a nerve wracking game now, especially in the box.

Are you on the wind up? The premier league over the years has produced/integrated some absolutely wonderful centre backs of different styles and qualities.

Gallas,
Carvalho,
Ferdinand,
Vidic,
Stam,
Hyypia,
Campbell,
Woodgate,
King,
Kompany,
Hangeland,

Just to name a few of the more recent ones.

the key attributes to good defenders are positioning and anticipation. The fact that probably Hyypia and Hangeland are the worst two on that list says a lot about the standard of centre halves that have played in this country over the last ten years or so.

[RedAnt]

I typed it wrong. I meant true quality. Not true, quality. But the list you've made has many debatable ones for "true quality". I'm talking Baresi quality. The list is also very short considering how many defenders there's been since the PL began.

[ConnO'var]

In all honesty, Toure has not been all that bad. I think the fact that he has to play on the left side to accommodate Martin is the main problem. That and the fact that Martin can be really poor and I think the problem lies in the fact that he has a complete lack of trust in his partner that is causing all these errors to creep in as he tries to overdo things and that causes him to be overly anxious and hence error prone. Fact that he is on his weaker foot since the loss of both Agger and Sakho is not helping either.

I cannot wait for Sakho to come back and Kolo can then move back to the right as well as have a partner he most likely trusts more to not leave him exposed. He is a much better defender than he has looked since he started partnering Martin. I give Martin full credit for his double against Arsenal but him, Johnson and Cissokho have no business being in our starting backline.

However, having said that, the howler against WBA was atrocious and not defensible in any way, shape or form.

[RedAnt]

I've spoken of "true quality" before and used one of the best as an example. Paolo Maldini. A man who could head the ball as well as the best, but rarely needed to head it because he was streets ahead of most players in terms of anticipation and positioning. Not a particularly big man, but strong enough to hold his ground, quick enough and smart enough to make heading and tackling nothing other than a last resort.

So no, it's not a wind up. The players you list are not in the "true quality" category league, not in my opinion anyway.

[Stu the Red]

I typed it wrong. I meant true quality. Not true, quality. But the list you've made has many debatable ones for "true quality". I'm talking Baresi quality. The list is also very short considering how many defenders there's been since the PL began.

Beacuse I'm talking about quality players and not including people from before the 2000's. If I started listing just good one's I could name hundreds. You say Baresi quality, well that narrows it down to Carvalho and Ferdinand and possibly Stam.

Skrtel doesn't come in anything other than the average category. He's three or four level's below nearly all of those mentioned in the list and the reality is, need at least one who can get into that list. If not, we at least need a massive upgrade on the Slovak.

He's not a hard player to upgrade upon and I fully expect Agger and Sahko to displace him when fit.

[damjan193]

Despite his mistakes, Toure has still been a great signing for us. For me, he already did a lot more than I expected him to do in our first three, very important games. He was probably the most responsible for those wins, along with Sturridge. I may call him a junkie in frustration when he does a mistake, but I think he's been a solid signing. However, those mistakes he did were terrible, and he needs some time on the bench to clear his head. After some time, I'll gladly have him back in the team and play alongside Agger (unless Sakho is back by then).

One thing is for sure though, as I said when they played their very first game together, Martin and Kolo should never be partnered in our defense again! Horrible partnership that.

[RedAnt]

I give up with ya, Stu. I stated that true quality defenders are very rare. You saw that as a wind up and chose to respond in your usual windup manner, and then listed some fine defenders. I pointed out to you that the RARE level of defender I'm talking about is of the Baresi and Maldini. Two of the best ever. Rare, true quality. You countered that by saying they don't count because they were older players.

This just ain't worth my time.