Liverpool FC Forum

[metalhead]

Well after reading Stu's arguments on player's natural ability and the ways you should judge a player (after practically reading his life story and his sunday pro days..kidding stu ) it's interesting to know what others think.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss/debate various abilities you look into players for their specific role on the pitch. How would you judge a player when you watch a game on the tele or in the stadium, do you look for certain strengths or the complete package?(mentality, confidence, ability on the ball, athleticism). Do you make your mind up directly or do you give it a certain time to see if he adapts or improve?

For example, for me it's important that a GK should be a good shot stopper, has high level of concentration, his decision making is top notch (when rushing out), can deal with a cross and finally his distribution is accurate. If a GK has these important aspects, then he is a good gk. However, many might lack the one or two, but might excel in others so it balances out.

so let's take Coutinho for example, what did you look for when you first watched him play? Did you look at his athleticism first? his first touch? his passing? Well, definitely the first thing I looked at is his passing and his first touch. I think these two aspects are very important in today's football because in England players usually close you down very very quickly and the player doesn't have the luxury to have a bad first touch because he would lose the ball rather quickly or just lose possession (something that Dirk Kuyt was very guilty of). For me Coutinho passed that test, his first touch is fantastic and he is very tidy in possession that when he is closed down he can make space for himself (with his great foot work) by a dummy or by getting past a player. He is also brilliant at reading the game, and his passing is just superb to watch sometimes, the way he plays a killer ball or a through ball. He is such a great technical player and has the potential to be a top top player for me.

Bill Shankly once said ''Football is a simple game based on the giving & taking of passes, of controlling the ball & making yourself available to receive a pass. It is terribly simple.'' He was absolutely spot on.

[RedAnt]

Good topic. First and foremost for me is attitude. I always watch the new guys keenly, noting their reactions to losing the ball, or when they mess up. I like you see players busy a gut. I love the goose pimples I get when I see someone like Agger thunder into tackles against the likes of Everton, fully understanding and commuted to the cause.

For players like Couthino, I love to watch the movement, the way he drags the oppositions entire shape around and then manipulates the gaps.

The fundamental things that can't be taught are surely priority.

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

Well after reading Stu's arguments on player's natural ability and the ways you should judge a player (after practically reading his life story and his sunday pro days..kidding stu ) it's interesting to know what others think.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss/debate various abilities you look into players for their specific role on the pitch. How would you judge a player when you watch a game on the tele or in the stadium, do you look for certain strengths or the complete package?(mentality, confidence, ability on the ball, athleticism). Do you make your mind up directly or do you give it a certain time to see if he adapts or improve?

For example, for me it's important that a GK should be a good shot stopper, has high level of concentration, his decision making is top notch (when rushing out), can deal with a cross and finally his distribution is accurate. If a GK has these important aspects, then he is a good gk. However, many might lack the one or two, but might excel in others so it balances out.

so let's take Coutinho for example, what did you look for when you first watched him play? Did you look at his athleticism first? his first touch? his passing? Well, definitely the first thing I looked at is his passing and his first touch. I think these two aspects are very important in today's football because in England players usually close you down very very quickly and the player doesn't have the luxury to have a bad first touch because he would lose the ball rather quickly or just lose possession (something that Dirk Kuyt was very guilty of). For me Coutinho passed that test, his first touch is fantastic and he is very tidy in possession that when he is closed down he can make space for himself (with his great foot work) by a dummy or by getting past a player. He is also brilliant at reading the game, and his passing is just superb to watch sometimes, the way he plays a killer ball or a through ball. He is such a great technical player and has the potential to be a top top player for me.

Bill Shankly once said ''Football is a simple game based on the giving & taking of passes, of controlling the ball & making yourself available to receive a pass. It is terribly simple.'' He was absolutely spot on.

Nice thread

I think the qualities in a keeper I would view as imperative would be firstly a commanding figure who continually instructs his defence on where
they should be at set pieces ,and one more than capable at collecting corners and crosses,obviously a strong shot stopper with acute awareness
and good positional sense.

As for Coutinho ,the very first thing I noticed was his intelligent use of the ball ,and his ability to bring others into play with one sweep of those
talented feet,I think we're extremely lucky to have found a player with a natural football brain ,I can only think of Ozil and maybe Modric who
possess the same speed of thought with a football at their feet .

[devaney]

I think attitude covers it for me as we'll. I have worked with some extremely intelligent and well educated people but they fundamentally lack the desire or have the determination to succeed to the level that their mental capabilities suggest are possible. Having all the skill in the world without the determination to succeed simply does not bring the required result. For me Kevin Keegan was one of my favourite footballers because he would die on the pitch for his team. Not the most skilful but what a fantastic attitude he had combined with limitless determination? A positive mental attitude is also vital. If somebody thinks they are shight then they usually are !! 

[Thommo's perm]

1. Can he control the ball?
2. Does he give it away often?
3. Does he retrieve it if he does?
4. Does he pass when he should and shoot when he should?
5. Does he fall like a tart when hes tackled or does he get up and carry on without complaining?
6. Does he play it simple yet effective?
7. Does he give away needless free kicks in dangerous areas?
8. Does he celebrate his team-mates goals?
9. Does he have fun while hes playing?
10. Is he gutted if we lose?

[Benny The Noon]

Good thread

For me there are lots of attributes that make up a player and depending on the amount of those attributes a players excells at will determine the overall standing of the player.

For the top player in the world you just look at Messi and he has the lot

Skill
Pace
Power
Aerial ability
Strength on the ball
Desire
Hard work
Stamina
Energy
Confidence
Agility
Produce under pressure
Temperament
Teamwork

Every attribute you can think off Messi is at the top level

Now if we look at some of our recent players you can look at the above attributes and you can see where they excel and where they fall short but they are still very good players because where they are strong enables them to produce the goods.

Take Kuyt for example - now I think he was a great player for us over the years. He wasnt the most skillful or the quickest or the most powerful but he worked bloody hard , stamina and energy was great , desire was world class , confidence and above all he produce when under pressure - that enabled him to get us so many crucial goals or assists when we needed them.

There are prob other attributes that other people use to judge a player but for me the overriding one is the ability to produce the goods using what attributes the player has.

Carra is another example - you wouldn't call him the most skillful or the quickest or the best in the air yet he produce performance after performance which made him a legend.

We can look at Suarez and you can see straight away where he excells but you can also see where he falls down.

[RedAnt]

Michael Owen talked in his bio about how football changed as he was growing into it. The likes of Gary Linekar, who hadn't an all round game, but had certain attributes that connected (such as knowing where to be, plus the ability to finish) were discouraged. Owen himself was made to train with his weaker foot, and his head. Perhaps it's the effect of 'total football'.

'Complete players' really are rare.

[bunglemark2]

Much as many might dislike him, or mentioning him in this thread, if there's one player who embodies the will to win and inspires others, it was Roy Keane. I would love to see a player demand that commitment and demonstrate that leadership in our midfield. Not saying he was a saint. But his leading by example was inspirational to others.

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

Much as many might dislike him, or mentioning him in this thread, if there's one player who embodies the will to win and inspires others, it was Roy Keane. I would love to see a player demand that commitment and demonstrate that leadership in our midfield. Not saying he was a saint. But his leading by example was inspirational to others.

Its a bit strange ,but I could never bring myself to dislike Keane with the same venom I held for the rest of the team. I don't think he ever talked anything but sense ,and in much the same respect as Scholes held a revered silence /grudging respect when it came to Liverpool.

[eds]

Much as many might dislike him, or mentioning him in this thread, if there's one player who embodies the will to win and inspires others, it was Roy Keane. I would love to see a player demand that commitment and demonstrate that leadership in our midfield. Not saying he was a saint. But his leading by example was inspirational to others.

Its a bit strange ,but I could never bring myself to dislike Keane with the same venom I held for the rest of the team. I don't think he ever talked anything but sense ,and in much the same respect as Scholes held a revered silence /grudging respect when it came to Liverpool.

You're kidding right?

This was the same individual who will be remembered for one of the most spiteful tackles in the history of the premiership and belongs nowhere on a football field, let along the top flight. Ending another players career and then gloating later on in his autobiography that it was fully intentional.

Only a year later he acted like a prima-donna at the World Cup and starts fights with the rest of his Irish squad and manager eventually getting kicked out of the team and sent back home in disgrace, after the team did everything to keep the sulking idiot under control. Whether the tirade against McCarthy is true or not, his behaviour was unprofessional and uncalled for.

Don't think he left Manure on good terms either, driving a wedge between the love-in old Whiskey nose once had for him, not that any of us really care.

Keane is a disgrace of a human being and embodies everything I destest during that Manure era......horrible player, horrible individual and really happy his football career ended in a farce as s**ty manager.

[eds]

Much as many might dislike him, or mentioning him in this thread, if there's one player who embodies the will to win and inspires others, it was Roy Keane. I would love to see a player demand that commitment and demonstrate that leadership in our midfield. Not saying he was a saint. But his leading by example was inspirational to others.

Wonder if you have the same level of "respect" for our current Number 7?

Would be really surprised that the same traits you glorify Keane about you aren't able to recognise in Suarez.

Both heavily flawed individuals that "embody the will to win and inspires others"

Thoughts?

[Kenny Kan]

Interesting one.

Regarding the keeper's position because it's more specific and easier to discuss, although Thommo's generalisation isn't that far off from outfield players, except for the lack of attributes to their respective positions.

A keeper's primary job and the essential one at that is to keep the ball out of the net. Shot stopping is my primary attribute for a keeper where as good kicking is an added bonus but nothing to worry about too much if he isn't as good as say Reina (who was brilliant with his feet). As Mignolet has shown so far, he is an excellent shot stopper with quick reflexes (which is another important attribute to shot stopping) and indeed accompanied with this has high levels of concentration. This is something I feel Reina lost to a degree in his last two years with us (for various reasons) and this impacted on his shot stopping (see Reina Vs Hearts for one example). When this happens, losing silly goals in important matches is detrimental to the sides achievement and impacts on the team's mentality. So that's why shot stopping for me is very important.

My next important attribute to look for is collecting crosses, from corners especially and decision making comes into this too.  It's not an easy one either and in all fairness to keepers it is probably the most difficult skill in the modern game. It has a lot to do with decision making and there isn't much time to judge whether a cross is going to be a keeper's ball or his defenses. Then once the keeper's made that decision to commit he really ought to be making good contact with the ball. If he doesn't commit, he's got to be ready and on his toes like a cat waiting for an almost impossible shot to save from close range. I honestly cannot remember the last time an LFC keeper in recent history had this attribute down pat - which is another reason why I think it's the most difficult attribute in the modern game for a keeper.  'Calamity' James was atrocious, Westerveld and Dudek I can't really remember (but having Hyypia and Henchoz at the back would have helped them), and Reina didn't inspire my with confidence either due to his sometimes erratic decision making. That said, Mignolet seems to be following the trend of another keeper who looks uncomfortable from crosses, however it could be nerves at this stage.

I think if a keeper can do these two things well, at a high consistent level then you'll have the two primary fundamentals of becoming a top class keeper. Another attribute to lay over these fundamentals in making a top class keeper is the confidence he inspires and being a commanding presence. If a keeper is good on crosses especially, and shot stopping he will naturally inspire confidence into the defense and with this he also needs to be a commanding presence.

"Decision making (rushing out)", not sure I'd put these two together if we're talking about 1 on 1's. A keeper will always come out, and so long as he doesn't come off his line like road runner and pass the oncoming attacker leaving the fella an empty net to shoot into then his decision is pretty much sound. It's what happens next that's important after closing down the angles. And I think this comes back to shot stopping and making the keeper look big and staying on his feet for as long as possible. Peter Schmeichel was the best keeper I've seen do this, in fact he's probably one of the best keepers I've ever seen.

Distribution, another good attribute to have. Again, Schmeichel with those huge long throws was brilliant. But when I think of a distribution expert I think of Reina. I remember under Rafa when we used to break with pace and counter attack he'd throw the ball out and we'd be up the other end in seconds attacking our opponents. He used to turn defense into attack in a matter of seconds. Also, I don't think I've seen a keeper who's more comfortable with the ball at his feet which is always reassuring, this would also give the back line  confidence in knowing their keeper was competent with the ball at his feet.

[bunglemark2]

Much as many might dislike him, or mentioning him in this thread, if there's one player who embodies the will to win and inspires others, it was Roy Keane. I would love to see a player demand that commitment and demonstrate that leadership in our midfield. Not saying he was a saint. But his leading by example was inspirational to others.

Wonder if you have the same level of "respect" for our current Number 7?

Would be really surprised that the same traits you glorify Keane about you aren't able to recognise in Suarez.

Both heavily flawed individuals that "embody the will to win and inspires others"

Thoughts?

Nope, I don't consider them similar of equal. Frankly speaking, Suarez's behaviour disgusts me at times - diving, biting, and his carry on this summer. That's not to say he doesn't have huge talent.
I'm not saying Keane was an angel either. The career ending tackle he made years ago was bang out of order. The conduct though in Saipan was more about his insistence that the FAI demand proper facilities and that they should not be sending bureaucrats in business class when the players were in cattle class. I agree with him on both counts. But his leadership on the pitch was phenomenal, dragging the Filth into the CL final.

I don't see anyone in our squad who show such admirable traits.

[Benny The Noon]

Gerrard ! And without the disgraceful behaviour and deliberate career ending tackles - not only dragged a team to a CL final but dragged a team to win it

[Hustler 2]

Most important, what I look for....

1.the ability to not give the ball away
2. The ability to create chances, see openings and put others in on goal.
3. Strength and speed.
4. An eye for goal.
5 good crossing ability, into the box.
6. Ability to bomb down the wing.
7. Solid tackling ability.

Stevie G is the only LFC player that ticks most of those boxes.

Coutinho, can change direction, see openings , put others in in goal, but he cant dribble, shoot on target, and loses posession easily .you dread it when he is on the edge of the box with the ball as you know he can't score.

Suarez scores, but is wasteful with many chances, he cant pass or cross, his head is always down, has no vision, and has many weaknesess.

Lucas has no creative ability. Can only short pass side to side. Is a one trick pony.

Johnson can bomb down the wing but cant cross or shoot to save his life.

Carra was great tackler, but was awful for pace.

Toure- looks strong, good tackler. Not sure about pace.

Hendo- good engine, but cant score goals, not creative enough final third.

Enrique- good on the ball, but cant cross, shoot, or tackle. Well.

Agger/skrtel - good tacklers, readers of the game, but both liabilities in our box with crosses. And no pace. They are not that good on the deck either.

Sturridge- good eye for goal. His vision, crossing passing in the box though is not the best, although he is strong + quick.

Aspas, moses, llori, sakho ibe etc etc.- well, your guess is as good as mine on that lot

Unfortunately, not many of our players have these essential abilities