Liverpool FC Forum

[Scottbot]

All of the players in the team are having to make adjustments and learn (or re-learn) their roles playing within Rodgers system. The front 3 are having to learn new patterns and to know when to inter-change with eachother, the middies are have to understand the transition from having the ball to losing it (and the subsequent efforts to get it back) but I thinks it's obvious that it is the back 5 (espcially the GK and CBs) who have the biggest adjustments to make and they are the key (I believe) to us having a good season this time around.

If you start with the Goal Keeper, Rodgers has already said that Reina has to be able to play as a sweeper (as Vorm does for Swansea) and based on what I saw yesterday, it means a LOT more work for Pepe in terms of the amount of times he will touch the ball and the levels of concentration he will need to show. Yesterday it was almost as if he was playing as a rush keeper given the amount of times the ball was bounced back to him. On a few occasions his teamates did put him under unnecessary pressure but he dealt with it admirably I thought. Also, his start position (not something you will see on the box) when we were in possession of the ball in their half was incrediably high, sometimes nearing the halfway point of our own half. This is a massive year for Reina as he looks to bounce back from a tough year last time around but I think he is well suited to the task and hope that Rodger's style of football will play into his strengths as the BEST distributor of the ball in the Premier League.

The CB's have just as big an adjustment to make as Reina based on what we've seen so far and unsurprisingly, our worst moments have come through errors in their play (ie. Skrtels slip that led to Agger's red card and yesterday's back pass). I'm not worried about Agger (except that he stays and gets another contract that is!) because he is so comfortable in possession and is a genuine ball-player. However, I am a little concerned about Skrtel and whether he can make the necessary adjustments to his game. Now I actually think Skrtel is a better centre-back than Agger, in fact I believe that only Kompany was better last season HOWEVER, this system asks Skrtel to play in space a lot more and it asks him to do the right thing with the ball when he will often be pressed by opposing attackers. In fact I suspect they will apply particular pressure in his direction given that he has looked a little uncomfortable. For all his strengths Skrtel is not Carlos Puyol so it will be interesting to see how he develops as the season progresses. I'd like to think that his confidence and composure will increase as the season goes on but it is improtant that he has a solid few games ahead I think. I wonder how the rest of you think he will fare in this system?

The full-backs also play a little differently in this system although not so much as the GK and CBs. This set-up looks absolutely made for Glen Johnson because the full-backs have got absolute licence to get forward, particularly on the overlap in matches where we have a leftie on the right and vice-versa in the wide mifdiled postions. I'm not worried about Jonno, I think he'll have his best season at the club and fancy to grab 4-5 goals this campaign. Same goes for Kelly, he's not as good going forward as Jonno but he is a solid defender who has a bit about him going forward and usually does the simple things well in possession of the ball. I am concerned about Enrique though, he is VERY one-footed and given that we will play a high line (I hope i'm wrong but) I fear he will put Agger/Skrtel into some difficult situations as a result of losing the ball. I actually wonder if young Jack Robinson will prove to be a better bet at left-back in the long-run? The lad is very quick and already looks a polished defender who is comfortable on the ball.

As for our other 2 CBs. Despite some good moments yesterday I am struggling to see Coates as regular in this system because he isn't the most natural ball player, in fact he might be the least natural of all our defenders. I think Carra will do ok on the ball, don't forget he played a large part of his career as a full-back so he is used to being on the ball in space. Obviously the worries with Carra are playing him in a high line given that he has lost a step and is a bit stiff in the hips these days.

I've got a few questions:

- who will have the better season. Agger or Skrtel? And Why?
- Do you think Enrique is up to the job in this system?
- Can Coates be a successful player in this system? If, so why?

[andy_g]

great post, scott

as far as skrtel is concerned i'm not too worried about his ball playing skills. lets not forget that he started his career as a striker, and has shown a bit of fancy footwork in the opposition box on a few occasions. his main issue, as we saw again against man city, is that he sometimes seems to lose sense of his position on the pitch and has lapses in concentration. we've seen he's a good learner though, judging from his huge improvement last season. i'm sure rodgers is putting the CBs through some pretty intensive drills at melwood and i'm confident that skrtel can adapt.

while enrique isn't exceptionally quick and is, as you say, one footed, he's also one of the most comfortable players in possession that we have. he's always got a calm head on him and will always take time to pick the correct pass. he'll be fine.

[Calum]

I wasn't aware if the "Tika Taka" phrase until I just looked it up on Wikipedia. A mention for our manager in the main opening paragraph!   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiki-taka

[maypaxvobiscum]

I've got a few questions:

- Who will have the better season. Agger or Skrtel? And Why?

Daniel Agger of course. He's exactly the type of player that will fit into the system BR wants to be played hence why even a club like Barcelona were rumored to be chasing his signature. He's very comfortable on the ball and has the swagger to dribble the ball up field. I've not seen a player who has so much style and composure since Xabi Alonso and Fernando Redondo. He's also grown a lot as a player over the years and I recognize him as the future captain of his club. That's not to say Skrtel won't have a good season though. I do think Skrtel will have a good season but unlike Agger, he might need more time to adjust to BR's methodology.

- Do you think Enrique is up to the job in this system?

Without wanting to sound stereotypical, Spaniards are generally technically brilliant players (exclude Javier Garrido) so I don't see why he can't adapt. I don't think Jack Robinson is ready though. If he was, then he would have been playing left-back instead of Johnson while Enrique was unavailable in the recent games. But he's definitely one for the future. If I'm not mistaken he played against Arsenal? Was really impressed as he was able to keep up with the speed of their players such as Walcott. He's also likely to get more playing time as he's only got Enrique to compete with while our other hot prospect John Flanagan has got Johnson and Kelly on the right side.

- Can Coates be a successful player in this system? If, so why?

Before he joined Liverpool, clubs like Man City and PSG (due to an injury to Sakho) were considering purchasing him so he's no slouch for sure. He's also a great threat in the opposition's box as you see in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUgHxm3p34I and not forgetting his scissor-kick for us. He made his debut for Nacional at 17 and for a player his age, he's got a vast amount of experience even in international competitions (Copa America 2011 where he was Player of the Tournament and Olympics). Point being, he's young and can only get better.

Coates reminds me a little bit of Henchoz in his style of play. Nothing flashy, but keeps it safe and is efficient. With good coaching from BR and his team, he can only get better and is most likely to adapt to BR's philosophy. He's more likely to succeed compared to someone like Danny Wilson. Against Brighton, Coates showed that he's capable of of distributing the ball out of defense and has accurate passing. So he isn't all about aerial ability but he'll have to improve his reading of the game in the sense that he doesn't get drawn out by making a wrongful anticipation of the ball. In this aspect, Carragher would be someone whom he can learn from.

[Kenny Kan]

I think people (LFC fans) mostly now assume we've been playing football like the old 'crazy gang' before Rodgers arrived. Even Martin Tyler made a valid point that 'passing and moving' is in Liverpool's DNA and it's not something new to this club (Hodgson aside). Okay, his system is different and more specific in this 'style' but I think there has been almost too much emphasis on this which almost discards our history of playing the game.

Take the Reina talk of being a 'rush' goalie, or a 'sweeper keeper', has no LFC fan prior to Rodgers's arrival seen Reina comfortably sweep up behind the defense, or play the ball out with his feet? Or am I the only one who doesn't have this selected memory loss.

Where the CB's are concerned I'd agree that within this system adjustments will need to be made but then again know matter how pure Rodgers's philosophy is, re football. If I had center-backs who weren't sure about the imminent pass out of a risky situation I'd always advocate hoofing the ball clear, if in doubt kick it out. Especially if those risky passes led to a goal like Tevez's did on Sunday, surely Rodgers would have preferred all three points (I know I would) rather than his players playing what can be perceived as a risky pass - if like he said the angles weren't on for Skertel. Also, the players own perception of his abilities shouldn't be forgotten and if he doesn't feel comfortable 'Tika Taka-ering' at the back, safety first, and a pragmatic approach in my mind would be the order of the day. A defender should go with what he thinks are the better odds of not conceding possession and possibly a goal in a given situation. I know this sounds as though it's contradictory to Rodgers's philosophy but that's my own personal take. It should also be said that Skertel's back pass may have not even been credited to this system anyway, he could have played that blind ball back under the guidance of any other manager.

[killerp]

I wasn't aware if the "Tika Taka" phrase until I just looked it up on Wikipedia. A mention for our manager in the main opening paragraph!   :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiki-taka

I thought it was a type of curry 

[The Good Yank]

Great thread opener Scott (as always).

I've been thinking alot about the back the past couple of weeks and it may be a bit of jumping the gun and trying to draw conclusions, but it is what it is.

I agree with alot of what Scott said.  I have even remarked about it in the match threads.  For me my only problem with the new system is having the fullbacks so far up the pitch without us having the ball across the midfield line.  The isolation of our CB's has led to 3 of the goals we've allowed (and a sending off).  Now I know the goals were scored because of the midfield giving the ball away cheaply, but if we had a traditional back four those sort of giveaways would have been covered pretty easily.

Now to the questions.

I think Agger will have the better season overall.  Skrtel will have a decent one as well.  Skrtel will pop up with a couple of goals from corners and will be immense at the back defending set pieces and such.  But Agger is in a different class when it comes to being in a system where ball playing CB's are a necessity.

Enrique.  Hmm, I'm not really convinced he's got the mental aptitude to play in this system.  He's very good in the defensive final third.  Really good in the middle third.  But he's absolute ***** in the attacking third.  His final ball is awful and I think we need more in the attacking third than we do in the defensive third from our fullbacks (given that they play so damned high up the pitch, which makes me mental)

Coates.  I think Coates is totally suited to the way BR wants our CB's to play.  Very good on the ball ( better on the ball than he is defensively), might look a bit awkward due to his lanky frame.  I actually think he's better on the ball than Agger.  It's going to take some time for him to not look like a heart attack waiting to happen at the back.  Give the lad a good look next time he starts a match and notice his passing.  Very nice range of passing.

[Scottbot]

Take the Reina talk of being a 'rush' goalie, or a 'sweeper keeper', has no LFC fan prior to Rodgers's arrival seen Reina comfortably sweep up behind the defense, or play the ball out with his feet? Or am I the only one who doesn't have this selected memory loss.

Of course Reina has been asked to "sweep up" plenty of times in the past but it will happen to a far greater extent in this system. Just look back at some of the passes Reina had to deal with on Sunday. He had a 30 yard floated chip from Allen that had the whole stadium bricking it, young Sterling played one back to him from absolutely miles out and there were a good few others where he was under pressure and under pressure from City players. It was a step up from the usual sweep up duties you would normally see our keeper perform and therefore (in myopinion) definately worth a mention.

Interesting to see people's opinion of Coates and his ability to play the ball. I certainly hope the lad meets people's expectation but despuite the fact he showed us tremendous technique to score that scissor kick at QPR last season I don't think he will ever be as comfortable as Danny Agger playing the ball from the back. He makes me nervous! He had some good moments on Sunday but there were a couple of occasions within a bout 10 seconds of eachother when City were attacking and he went to ground and i absolutley shi....t meself!

[aCe']

Scott, great to have you posting a bit more regularly again.

Ill keep it short since you made most of the points anyways. Regarding Skrtel, I think it's all down to awareness and concentration as far as he's concerned. He had a very good season last time out but his lack of awareness and concentration at key moments stop him from being a top top defender. Agger on the other hand isnt the most dominant of CBs but he has excellent composure on the ball which is always something you look for when trying to play it out from the back. For me, the two complement each other pretty well and I'd have a Skrtel and an Agger in the side before having 2 Aggers despite the well documented shortcomings of Skrtel. In summary, I'm not too worried about our CBs and if anything -and to more accurately answer your question-, I expect Skrtel to do better than Agger this season and i can see him scoring a much needed 5-8 goals from set pieces.

Regarding the fullbacks, my worry isn't Enrique. It's actually Kelly. While being quick and strong, he lacks the first touch and composure on the ball to keep attacking moves flowing. As a backup, he should be fine coming in every now and then but I cant see him performing well consistently unless he improves his attacking play considerably.

On Coates, I'm not his biggest fan. Like Kelly, he's young and has all the time in the world to improve. As a backup, or 4th option as it stands, we're okay with having him. However, I do worry whenever I see his name on the starting lineup. Defensively he is suspect and on the ball he seems to lack the experience and composure needed. I do however think that we need to give both him and Kelly the platform to improve and do so sooner rather than later. I'd be more than happy to see the likes of Kelly, Coates, Robinson, Shelvey...etc who are all promising young players who need to be tested given starting roles in Europa and domestic cup games. As things stand though, I dont think Coates and Kelly would be successful in the current system quite yet.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

I think people (LFC fans) mostly now assume we've been playing football like the old 'crazy gang' before Rodgers arrived. Even Martin Tyler made a valid point that 'passing and moving' is in Liverpool's DNA and it's not something new to this club (Hodgson aside). Okay, his system is different and more specific in this 'style' but I think there has been almost too much emphasis on this which almost discards our history of playing the game.

Take the Reina talk of being a 'rush' goalie, or a 'sweeper keeper', has no LFC fan prior to Rodgers's arrival seen Reina comfortably sweep up behind the defense, or play the ball out with his feet? Or am I the only one who doesn't have this selected memory loss.

Where the CB's are concerned I'd agree that within this system adjustments will need to be made but then again know matter how pure Rodgers's philosophy is, re football. If I had center-backs who weren't sure about the imminent pass out of a risky situation I'd always advocate hoofing the ball clear, if in doubt kick it out. Especially if those risky passes led to a goal like Tevez's did on Sunday, surely Rodgers would have preferred all three points (I know I would) rather than his players playing what can be perceived as a risky pass - if like he said the angles weren't on for Skertel. Also, the players own perception of his abilities shouldn't be forgotten and if he doesn't feel comfortable 'Tika Taka-ering' at the back, safety first, and a pragmatic approach in my mind would be the order of the day. A defender should go with what he thinks are the better odds of not conceding possession and possibly a goal in a given situation. I know this sounds as though it's contradictory to Rodgers's philosophy but that's my own personal take. It should also be said that Skertel's back pass may have not even been credited to this system anyway, he could have played that blind ball back under the guidance of any other manager.

yeah you are spot on, there is a bit of revisionism going on.
having keepers that sweep up at the back is nothing new at anfield, infact bill shankly invented the `sweeper keeper`.
when we had teams pressed back in the 60`s shankly encouraged his defence to push right up and squeeze the opposition in their own half, so to help combat the ball over the top catching our defence out shankly told tommy lawrence to stand right on the edge of his area (and sometimes out of it!) so he could sprint out and welly the ball into the stands. lawrence was nicknamed `the flying pig` (he was quite hefty for those days) not because of the way he dived but because of the way he came `flying` out of his goal area to clear the ball. seeing a keeper standing outside of his box watching the game unfold was a radical thing back then, it`s worth noting though that in those days it was practically impossible to lob the keeper from the halfway line with the balls they used in that era.
that tactic was used right through paisley`s and fagan`s era and kenny`s first spell too (brucey often stood outside his box, the difference between bruce and tommy was that instead of hoofing the ball out the ground bruce would often go on a mazy run with the ball) but by the early 90`s i think the balls started to get lighter and fly more distance so keepers had to be wary of getting lobbed.
so rodgers is in a sense reinventing the wheel here, what i do think rodgers has done that hasnt probably been seen at anfield since the 80`s though is to mix passing footy with intensity of play and work rate, we`ve had some good passing sides over the last 20 years especially under roy evans but that team was very laconic in general, rodgers seems to instilled a real work ethic right throughout the side.
in the past one player might make an effort to close the opposition down but everyone else would stand around watching.
never mind with the ball, i think rodgers has got them playing as a team when we havent got the ball and it`s great to watch.

[Johnny Boy]

Agger will have an excellent season if he can stay fit, he is extremely comfortable at bringing the ball out of defence and can link up
better with the midfielders than Skrtel can.

Enrique , I am not sure, his form dipped dramatically midway through last season. If he plays like he did early last season I think he
can be very effective in the new formation, as like he can overlap and beat a man. Can see the likes of Sarin and Allen combining well with him.

Coates I honestly haven't seen enough of, he showed some good touches at the weekend.

The important thing with the centre backs is the combination, Agger the natural gifted footballer combined with Skrtel or Coates, who are probably
better tacklers.

What slightly worries me, maybe as Enrique hasn't played much, I am not a fan of Johnson moving to the left - especially to accomodate Kelly.
If Enrique isn't selected, Robinson who is a natural left sided player should be picked and Jonno back on the right.