Liverpool FC Forum

kartiek » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:19 am wrote:

Thommo's perm » Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:34 pm wrote:

maguskwt » Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:28 pm wrote:I'm amazed how "true fans" weren't defending Kuyt about 3 years ago with as much conviction and vigor as they are defending Carroll now? What was it back then? Headless chicken? Only score goals accidentally with his shin? 

Can't say that I'm surprised though... There has always been double standards when it comes to British player vs foreign player...

Kuyt has had plenty of time to prove his worth.
I have been one of his biggest critics but I have been honest and did not have a hidden agenda. Kuyt is a workhorse who comes up with vital goals at times. But he is limited technically and is often the breakdown in link up play. He has a tendency to run around with very little purpose but he is passionate and loyal and I will be sad to see him go.
This is different to the absolute slaughtering Carroll has got in the months he has been playing for us. Some have been totally against him from the begining due to his price tag, which goes to show how shallow they are. He came in injured and has slowly grown in stature and confidence, despite the stick he has received from the cu'nty hypocritical media and the sheep that follow them.
Dickie Kuyt will always be remembered with fondness by me, frustrating as he is, his heart is in the right place.

To be completely honest, Kuyt's link up play is not that bad at all. He's lambasted on this point, in my opinion for no reason. His main problem really is that he's slow and doesn't have tricks under his belt. But he can always play the one two.

Andy Carroll on the other hand, I think can pass the ball a bit, but he's really poor with running with the ball (just can't do it), and he definitely isn't sharp enough at playing one twos either. One thing he'll definitely improve upon with age is his awareness, as long as he keeps working hard on his fitness. The thing that's most bothersome, IMO, is his lack of ball control while in motion. In fact, I can't recall him running for more than 3 yards with the ball at his feet.

Kuyt has been a great servant. Sometimes hes been very good. Other times hes been vey sh'it. One thing hes always been is a tryer who gives his best every time he pulls the shirt on.
I am a bit confused with your analogy of Carroll. Why would you want him running with the ball? Thats what Downing, Henderson, Gerrard, Bellamy and Suarez are there for? I absolutely disagree with your opinion of his ball control as well. I have seen some lovely touches, especially in the last few games and I would say overall he can take the ball, control it and lay it off without a problem?

I won't comment anymore on Carroll until the end of the season. So i will finish with this.

The lad will never be good enough for Liverpool. Peter Crouch is a better player and he was not good enough. Ultimately he will be moved on, the question is how long before he is.

I congratulated him for winning two flick ons against Blackburn and Everton, which is the aerial Stoke-esque style that suits him. On the floor he is bogstandard, we all know that, and our league season, the worst in half a century, has been destroyed by not having a quality #9 who can stick the ball in the net.

Our team is riddled with mediocrity from Spearing, Shelvey, Carroll, Henderson up. If Kenny is here next season (and its a big if as the media reports and his comments appear to suggest he won't be) he has to address the two problems of central midfield and upfront.

That didn't take so long did it?

metalhead » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:17 pm wrote:That didn't take so long did it?

Thought Carroll had a pretty good game today. Worked hard and his control and movement were good. He looked sharp and up for it. His finishing was poor though but he's getting on the end of more and more chances which means he misses more...but scores more too of course. Gonna be vital next year, especially if we can bring in a big name striker to supplement the attack, relieve pressure, and contest for a starting spot.

RedAnt » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:35 pm wrote:

metalhead » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:17 pm wrote:That didn't take so long did it?

Thought Carroll had a pretty good game today. Worked hard and his control and movement were good. He looked sharp and up for it. His finishing was poor though but he's getting on the end of more and more chances which means he misses more...but scores more too of course. Gonna be vital next year, especially if we can bring in a big name striker to supplement the attack, relieve pressure, and contest for a starting spot.

Yeah I thought he played well today. I think both Suarez and Carroll are playing well now but they're not exactly clicking as a team, not creating easy chances for each other... And of course, both our strikers need at least 7 attempts on goal before getting a goal, which is bothersome.

I did say no more comments but i had to have one last one in response to this pearler..

"thought he had a good game .... his finishing was poor"

You couldn't make it up.

On seconds thoughts it sums up the low level of expectation... like the dumb kid in a school who got a gold star (and a pat on the head) for getting 42 out of 100.

Roll on the changes that summer must bring.

D___C » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:51 pm wrote:I did say no more comments but i had to have one last one in response to this pearler..

"thought he had a good game .... his finishing was poor"

You couldn't make it up.

On seconds thoughts it sums up the low level of expectation... like the dumb kid in a school who got a gold star (and a pat on the head) for getting 42 out of 100.

Roll on the changes that summer must bring.

What are you on? The days of strikers like Lineker are long gone. Modern forwards, little, big or otherwise have much more to their games these days. Do you even remember Lineker?

modern forwards have to score goals.. therein lies a problem (among many others) with andy carroll

Listen.. he will be defended by a number of our own, i get that, its understandable to do so, commendable even... i personally am not one of those people.

I prefer to stick with a realistic, accurate assessment. 

He (and Spearing, Shelvey, Adam and co.) will be moved on, whether Kenny is here to do that remains to be seen. Thanks to Kenny's signings (or whoever is responsible) our team has never been so mediocre. That change must happen in the summer otherwise the mediocrity will be hard to remove.

D___C » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:06 pm wrote:modern forwards have to score goals.. therein lies a problem (among many others) with andy carroll

Listen.. he will be defended by a number of our own, i get that, its understandable to do so, commendable even... i personally am not one of those people.

I prefer to stick with a realistic, accurate assessment. 

He (and Spearing, Shelvey, Adam and co.) will be moved on, whether Kenny is here to do that remains to be seen. Thanks to Kenny's signings (or whoever is responsible) our team has never been so mediocre. That change must happen in the summer otherwise the mediocrity will be hard to remove.

You obviously think that Suarez was the most wasteful of the strikers today. Was that Carrolls fault too?

carroll had a decent game, most of them did to be fair, at times in the second half it was like the alamo.
we have got to improve our delivery into the box though, our wide players and fullbacks get into some great positions but they either hit the first defender or sky the ball right over everyones head for a throw in on the other side.
our decision making when we get into dangerous positions could be better as well, for instance suarez did a great bit of skill wide out to get past a defender but he tried to shoot from a impossible angle when we had carroll and someone else (kuyt i think) free in the middle waiting for a tap in.

Andy Carroll is a thoroughly decent footballer, but I get the sense that he needs to be the focal point in a team in order to get the best out of him. The entire team needs to be set up around him, he needs to be the main man and at Liverpool he'll never be that man. He'll never have the team set up around him. Then you have the problem of him and Suarez not scoring enough goals. It's evident that we need another striker, we need someone like Papiss Cisse who can score goals on a regular basis. We need another Fernando Torres, that's what we need at Liverpool. Suarez won't be sold under any circumstances, he's arguably our best player, so that leaves Andy on the fringes if we sign another striker. I don't think Andy Carroll has much of a future at Anfield in all honesty.

Boxscarf » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:18 pm wrote:Andy Carroll is a thoroughly decent footballer, but I get the sense that he needs to be the focal point in a team in order to get the best out of him. The entire team needs to be set up around him, he needs to be the main man and at Liverpool he'll never be that man. He'll never have the team set up around him. Then you have the problem of him and Suarez not scoring enough goals. It's evident that we need another striker, we need someone like Papiss Cisse who can score goals on a regular basis. We need another Fernando Torres, that's what we need at Liverpool. Suarez won't be sold under any circumstances, he's arguably our best player, so that leaves Andy on the fringes if we sign another striker. I don't think Andy Carroll has much of a future at Anfield in all honesty.

carroll has to be kept and another striker needs to be bought but it has to be one of note that can score and more importantly give us another option in the final 3rd.
if anyone needs to go its kuyt,maxi and maybe bellamy not andy carroll.

red till i die!! » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:28 pm wrote:
carroll has to be kept and another striker needs to be bought but it has to be one of note that can score and more importantly give us another option in the final 3rd.
if anyone needs to go its kuyt,maxi and maybe bellamy not andy carroll.

Bellamy, Kuyt and Maxi offer far more in an attacking sense than Andy Carroll. Andy Carroll is never going to be a 20 goals a season striker which is what we need. Whilst he and Suarez work well together, they are not potent enough in front of goal as shown multiple times this season. If we sign a 20 goals a season striker, you can bet your bottom dollar that Carroll will find it next to impossible to get games, unless either striker is out with an injury, a suspension or whatever else. No club in their right mind would spend £35m on a player to then leave him on the bench. I honestly don't think Carroll has a future here, if another manager comes in, I think Carroll along with Downing and Adam will be the first players out of the door, unless Reina beats them first.

Why would anyone get rid of Kuyt? He is an excellent player even though getting on a bit (remember he starts for 2nd best team in the World - Holland) I think the whole world knows that Carroll is just not that good, the price tag didn't help him but he will never get you even 15 goals a season i doubt.  Downing never ever scores or seems to do anything and i'm sorry but even though Spearing tries his hardest he is no better than an average Championship Midfielder. We need world class players not run of the mill workhorses.

Boxscarf » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:35 pm wrote:Bellamy, Kuyt and Maxi offer far more in an attacking sense than Andy Carroll. Andy Carroll is never going to be a 20 goals a season striker which is what we need. Whilst he and Suarez work well together, they are not potent enough in front of goal as shown multiple times this season. If we sign a 20 goals a season striker, you can bet your bottom dollar that Carroll will find it next to impossible to get games, unless either striker is out with an injury, a suspension or whatever else. No club in their right mind would spend £35m on a player to then leave him on the bench. I honestly don't think Carroll has a future here, if another manager comes in, I think Carroll along with Downing and Adam will be the first players out of the door, unless Reina beats them first.

Yes Bellamy, Kuyt and Maxi offer more in an attacking sense... however... i don't agree that andy carroll cant score 20 goals in a season. In a bogstsandard direct aerial team he would do... in a passing team that play it on the floor he won't sniff that figure. The two recent goals he got.. Vs Blackburn.. direct hoof down the middle from Coates, flicked on to carroll who headed in. Vs Bitters.. free kick into the box.. backward header in. Imagine him at Stoke...crosses whipped in constantly, long diagonal balls upfield, long throw ins from Delap.. he would have a field day. This aerial stuff is what he fed on at newcastle.. flick ons, getting on the end of direct long balls from Barton/Nolan and also crosses from Guiteriezz. Its not a successful method of play, it bypasses midfield, and is to the detriment of technical players who play on the floor. For us to get the best out of him means sacrficing playing it on the floor and challenging above sixth. Newcastle are a team transformed since the slow, lumbering big fella left. Sat in 14th, Pardew discarded the direct method when he walked out the door, brought in better players, and started to play it on the floor as successful sides do.

My issue with carroll has always been twofold.. one; lack of talent, two; the aerial game that he demands to get the best out of the limited big fella.

If he was just an extra option for us to have on the bench to throw on for the last 10 minutes if all else had failed then fine... but we paid 35million for that.

Comolli was fired because of his transfer policy, a transfer policy geared toward andy carroll. Kenny (or any new manager) has to rip up the mistake and start again.