Liverpool FC Forum

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:35 am**

I haven't read long babbling conversations/arguments like that in ages - and it's not even heated or anything. It's fecking great.

I'll add in my two cents, however.

I'm tending to side with Bad Bob in this case. My arguments are more or less the same but with different examples. The World Cup does indeed increase the value of a player if he plays well, and also decreases it if he has a shyte tournament (albiet not to the same extent). Moreover, it tends to OVER RATE players. A crappy game in an England top for Gerrard, Carra, Lampard or whoever will not dramatically decrease their value; however, if per say Lennon, thought already highly rated in England, plays a couple of blinders, then his value would reach sky heights - people will no doubt rate him as world class.

I used hypertheticals as examples cos real life examples will always have some excuse.

Rafa is likely to sign someone after a long hard look at him over numerous occasions. Judging a player on 3-7 games in a short time frame is quite silly IMO. Rafa is likely not to only check skills and determination, but the qualities to mould them into a player to fit his system - a la crouch.

So I guess, a blinder or a stinker at a tournament doesn't mean much other than performing on a pressured stage. Important I guess, but ultimately its the determination to play for the badge and not of fear is more important.

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:37 am**

Raiden Warr wrote:I still haven't figure how that quote thingy works

Let me guess, Are u a blonde

so wat do u do in your free time ? besides discussing about "football" and drinking tea :;):

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:04 pm**

Blonde moments..hmm I have been known to have a few apart from talking football, what do i do? watching football, playing football, coaching football, eating football drinking.... tea....all right I give up how do you do the quote thingy?

Wee Boi I take your point about judging a player over a few games is quite reckless but I think it happens even at the higher echelons of football. But even where you research a player for ages it does not mean they will perform. Look at Morientes. He came to Liverpool and has not delivered and he is a player who I certainly have been watching for ages and I imagine so have Liverpool. I thought he was a good buy although I did have my reservations.
I still remain unconvinced about Kuyt. He is averaging 20 goals a season in the Dutch league which I think is low compared to Van Nistleroy or Larsson who played in weak leagues and had a comparitively higher goals ratio. I wonder how he will fit into the way Liverpool play. I understand why Cisse was brought in. He was supposed to have the pace of Michael Owen play off Crouch and stick the ball in the back of the net. Do you really think Kuyt is the man to do this from what you have seen? As for Cisse I disagree he was not worth 14million. I do not think he was utilised properly nor was he able to reach his potential at Liverpool. Cisse cannot be such a bad player if he was included in the French team ahead of Ludovic Giuly who is an excellent player and (incidentally if you want a man wide right would fit the bill as he is being replaced by Leo Messi. He has experience skill and speed and a good goal scoring record) But for his injury Cisse would be playing in this world cup and lets remember he was scoring for France and Liverpool. He took the penalty that won the champions league.
Whenever I have watched him he has shown more passion and desire than Crouchie who I think is rather laid back. I like Torres,Joaquin,Giuly, Klose,Inzahgi, Podolski scored but I would like to see whatelse he can do, Simao (have seen him play in more than just the world cup) correct me if I am wrong but I believe he plays on the left is Rafa thinking of getting rid of Kewell?

BB said:-
"Your comment about Kuyt not being a first-choice starter puzzles me. You don't think the fact that he started against Portugal in the knock-out round (ahead of Van Nistleroy) qualifies him as a first-choice starter? He also started and played the entire match against Argentina, while RVN was substituted part-way through the 2nd half. Based on minutes played, you could well argue that Kuyt was preferred to Van Nistleroy by Van Basten in the big matches. Now, I would suggest that there's more than a little politics involved in RVN's benching but to say that RVN, RVP and AR were "preferred" to Kuyt is simply wrong--and the minutes played statistics will prove it, if you care to look.

More daft, however, is your insinuation that Ruud Van Nistleroy doesn't even start for Man U. He's had a falling out with Alex Ferguson, of course, which has led to his lack of selection. But, don't kid yourself, it's a decision borne of a power struggle between two gargantuan egos rather than a decision prompted by Van Nistleroy's lack of form. He's still good enough to start for most teams in the world and you know it. Implying that Ruud Van Nistleroy is just some second-rate squad player (or Van Persie for that matter) who, nonetheless, was still "preferred" to Kuyt is simply absurd."
Kuyt says:-
“That's my goal,” he said. “If Van Nistelrooy is not there, I want to be the first one to be his substitute. If that happens, I’ll try to be as good as Ruud and become the number one striker.” (straight from the horse's mouth) (website is fifa world cup.yahoo.com)

Back to you BB about Van Nistleroy I think you will find he has been replaced by Saha and Rooney as first choice and Man Utd are selling him at a time they can still cash in on him. I personally hold the opinion that the decision to let go of Van Nistleroy is a business decision and not an emotional one by Ferguson because he does not get on with the player.

As to the financial issue that is a thorny one. I guess it depends on what you are expecting to achieve. I think that spending 30million on Shevchenko is a bad idea if the sole reason he is being bought is to win the champions league however I do not believe that is the reason he is being bought. There are sentimental reasons as well as financial reasons for that. Shevchenko is a big name in Russia and the former Soviet States and it is possible Abramovich has a marketing plan to recoup his money back. Russia and Eastern Europe are afterall emerging markets.
Real Madrid spent an obscene amount of money on David Beckham and the galacticos they have won nothing of note for the last three years but in buying Beckham et al they were not only buying a Footballers but making a business decision. Beckham a marketing phenomenon who generated 40 million worth of business in one year of the three he was there so they have more than recouped the outlay they spent on him.

As to the Liverpool policy of buying players - if you pay peanuts you will get monkeys!
Houllier spent an awful lot of money (over 100 million) on lots of players and few of those players are still considered good enough to play at Liverpool. Under his regime Our best players have been the homegrown ones. Gerrard et al. One of the reasons I like Rafa is that a higher proportion of the players he has bought so far have been very good. I personally would like to see an introduction of more home grown players, One or two experienced heads at least one with a proven consistent/prolific goal scoring record and may be one or two gambles like a Dirk Kuyt but not at 12 million. I would like to see us spend money on a 2-3 good players every season, quality not quantity.
As to the question of spending 30 million on a player, Whilst I don't think we should buy 11 players worth 30million I think that sometimes you do have to spend the money. Clubs don't just spend money on a player like that for his footballing skills but also for his marketing power Football is afterall a business. Hence selling shirts image rights etc all come into play and you have got to spend money to make money so why not. Alex Ferguson blew his transfer budget for that season to purchase Wayne Rooney and I think it paid off. Frank Rijaard rejuvenated his Barcelona side by buying cut price players from the champions league winning & finalists team of Porto and Monaco. He did not pay 30 million for Etoo or Deco. Nor did Bayern pay over the odds for Schweinsteiger.

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:02 pm**

Afternoon, Raiden Warr...

Not surprisingly I disagree with much of what you've said again

...

Unfortunately I'm off on holidays as of today and have a long drive ahead. Since I do my own typing (yes it's true Babu! :laugh:

)..I can't take the time to respond.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one but I've enjoyed the dialogue!

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:02 pm**

So what are we saying? 5 million?

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:08 pm**

Will miss you loads and happy holidays

Posted: **Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:54 am**

I agree with Warr, I only saw Kuyt play once in the world cup and I was disappointed, in both him because he was wasteful, a whinger, went to ground too easily and like the rest of the Holland team, shocked me by his cheating efforts to get opposition players booked. I'd rather Rafa steared clear of a player with that kind of mentality. Naive I know!

The first time I saw Ian Rush play, in his debut, I was so excited by his potential, I KNEW he would be great- a gut feeling- Kuyt liked flicking his blond hair too much for me to take him seriously!
As an aside, does anyone know the portuguese for lady boy w**nker to direct at Ronaldo. Don't be surprised if all the England team accidentally deck him during the premiership new season. His wink was a disgrace. :devil:

Posted: **Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:56 pm**

Yay finally a voice of reason. What do you think of Klose I know his world cup performances have been good but he also played a part in Werder Bremen's advance in the Champions League oh yes and he's German so he can take penalties. We need a steady head Especially now Didi's on his way out.
As for Cristiano Ronaldo lets just say **&!!£$$%" and ""£%$&*!! for good measure. He is one of those guys who is not as good as he likes to think he is. Where does he want to play Real Madrid who is he gonna replace Robinho? pah

Posted: **Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:08 pm**

gabbyh wrote:I agree with Warr, I only saw Kuyt play once in the world cup and I was disappointed, in both him because he was wasteful, a whinger, went to ground too easily and like the rest of the Holland team, shocked me by his cheating efforts to get opposition players booked. I'd rather Rafa steared clear of a player with that kind of mentality. Naive I know!
The first time I saw Ian Rush play, in his debut, I was so excited by his potential, I KNEW he would be great- a gut feeling- Kuyt liked flicking his blond hair too much for me to take him seriously!
As an aside, does anyone know the portuguese for lady boy w**nker to direct at Ronaldo. Don't be surprised if all the England team accidentally deck him during the premiership new season. His wink was a disgrace.

I was unimpressed with Dirk Kuyt's World Cup performance but to judge him on what, two half appearances and one starting appearance is outrageous, it really is. World Cup 2002 made Salif Diao look like a World Beater, did he turn out as a great signing? Nope, he didn't. :no

Posted: **Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:09 pm**

Raiden Warr wrote:Yay finally a voice of reason. What do you think of Klose I know his world cup performances have been good but he also played a part in Werder Bremen's advance in the Champions League oh yes and he's German so he can take penalties. We need a steady head Especially now Didi's on his way out.
As for Cristiano Ronaldo lets just say **&!!£$$%" and ""£%$&*!! for good measure. He is one of those guys who is not as good as he likes to think he is. Where does he want to play Real Madrid who is he gonna replace Robinho? pah

Why would you buy Klose to replace Hamann? They both play in completely different positions?

Posted: **Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:12 pm**

Really? do they? Wow dude? This soccer stuff is like er totally confusing and oh my gahd. ye heavens.. oh my goodness who would ever have guessed? I mean those two purty boyz they are er like so totally from Germany and they er like both totally speak German and they both play soccerrr......
:idea

why don't we read the post together. I didn't actually say Klose should replace Didi did I? I will however clarify what I meant.I first asked what Gabby thought of Klose as a player. Then I went on to suggest that he (Klose) would be a good addition to the squad. One of the qualities he would bring would be his ability to take penalties. (keep up remember Didi- FA Cup- penalty inspired confidence- set the tone) Further based on his performances in the World Cup and with Werder Bremen I thought he would be a better acquisition than Dirk "Pretty Boy" Kuyte Kite rhymes with......

Now back to your reading and comprehension lesson. Gabbyh actually said she only saw Dirk once so she is only judging him on one performance she says so. You say she is judging him on two appearances.[/quote]I was unimpressed with Dirk Kuyt's World Cup performance but to judge him on what, two half appearances and one starting appearance is outrageous, it really is. World Cup 2002 made Salif Diao look like a World Beater, did he turn out as a great signing? Nope, he didn't. :no

[quote]

She is further goes on to elucidate (use a dictionary) She judged rushie on instinct She liked the look of him when he played it won her over. There is a groundswell of opinion that you should not judge a player on one performance. On the other hand you can study a player for ages and when he does finally play he is (rhymes with Kuyt) However I can tell you as an ex soccer player and current football coach sometimes (not all the time) one chance is all you get at a football trial. Finally Salif Diao played in the French league before he played in the world cup. Houllier claimed to have a good knowledge of French players (well there's Cheyrou, Le Tallec, Pongolle, Diao, Diouf, the list goes on) you assume that because You saw Diao play only in the world cup so did Houllier. He is making a million pound decision I hardly think He would make it based on seeing the player play only once.
I think you should stop being so condescending and assuming that because we are girls we don't know anything about football its quite what's the word....Sexist and makes you look like a Boor which I am sure you are not.

Posted: **Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:59 pm**

Raiden Warr wrote:Really? do they? Wow dude? This soccer stuff is like er totally confusing and oh my gahd. ye heavens.. oh my goodness who would ever have guessed? I mean those two purty boyz they are er like so totally from Germany and they er like both totally speak German and they both play soccerrr......
why don't we read the post together. I didn't actually say Klose should replace Didi did I? I will however clarify what I meant.I first asked what Gabby thought of Klose as a player. Then I went on to suggest that he (Klose) would be a good addition to the squad. One of the qualities he would bring would be his ability to take penalties. (keep up remember Didi- FA Cup- penalty inspired confidence- set the tone) Further based on his performances in the World Cup and with Werder Bremen I thought he would be a better acquisition than Dirk "Pretty Boy" Kuyte Kite rhymes with......

Now back to your reading and comprehension lesson. Gabbyh actually said she only saw Dirk once so she is only judging him on one performance she says so. You say she is judging him on two appearances.

I was unimpressed with Dirk Kuyt's World Cup performance but to judge him on what, two half appearances and one starting appearance is outrageous, it really is. World Cup 2002 made Salif Diao look like a World Beater, did he turn out as a great signing? Nope, he didn't. :no

She is further goes on to elucidate (use a dictionary) She judged rushie on instinct She liked the look of him when he played it won her over. There is a groundswell of opinion that you should not judge a player on one performance. On the other hand you can study a player for ages and when he does finally play he is (rhymes with Kuyt) However I can tell you as an ex soccer player and current football coach sometimes (not all the time) one chance is all you get at a football trial. Finally Salif Diao played in the French league before he played in the world cup. Houllier claimed to have a good knowledge of French players (well there's Cheyrou, Le Tallec, Pongolle, Diao, Diouf, the list goes on) you assume that because You saw Diao play only in the world cup so did Houllier. He is making a million pound decision I hardly think He would make it based on seeing the player play only once.
I think you should stop being so condescending and assuming that because we are girls we don't know anything about football its quite what's the word....Sexist and makes you look like a Boor which I am sure you are not.

Never read yer post but Karim aka Liverpoolanytime p1ss off yer borin

Posted: **Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:44 pm**

Ciggy wrote:
Raiden Warr wrote:Really? do they? Wow dude? This soccer stuff is like er totally confusing and oh my gahd. ye heavens.. oh my goodness who would ever have guessed? I mean those two purty boyz they are er like so totally from Germany and they er like both totally speak German and they both play soccerrr......
why don't we read the post together. I didn't actually say Klose should replace Didi did I? I will however clarify what I meant.I first asked what Gabby thought of Klose as a player. Then I went on to suggest that he (Klose) would be a good addition to the squad. One of the qualities he would bring would be his ability to take penalties. (keep up remember Didi- FA Cup- penalty inspired confidence- set the tone) Further based on his performances in the World Cup and with Werder Bremen I thought he would be a better acquisition than Dirk "Pretty Boy" Kuyte Kite rhymes with......

Now back to your reading and comprehension lesson. Gabbyh actually said she only saw Dirk once so she is only judging him on one performance she says so. You say she is judging him on two appearances.
I was unimpressed with Dirk Kuyt's World Cup performance but to judge him on what, two half appearances and one starting appearance is outrageous, it really is. World Cup 2002 made Salif Diao look like a World Beater, did he turn out as a great signing? Nope, he didn't.

She is further goes on to elucidate (use a dictionary) She judged rushie on instinct She liked the look of him when he played it won her over. There is a groundswell of opinion that you should not judge a player on one performance. On the other hand you can study a player for ages and when he does finally play he is (rhymes with Kuyt) However I can tell you as an ex soccer player and current football coach sometimes (not all the time) one chance is all you get at a football trial. Finally Salif Diao played in the French league before he played in the world cup. Houllier claimed to have a good knowledge of French players (well there's Cheyrou, Le Tallec, Pongolle, Diao, Diouf, the list goes on) you assume that because You saw Diao play only in the world cup so did Houllier. He is making a million pound decision I hardly think He would make it based on seeing the player play only once.
I think you should stop being so condescending and assuming that because we are girls we don't know anything about football its quite what's the word....Sexist and makes you look like a Boor which I am sure you are not.

Never read yer post but Karim aka Liverpoolanytime p1ss off yer borin

You're gettin borin now, get over it.

You're starting to sound like me arguing with 7_kewell, Bavlondon, John_Craig, Johnnymac, JBG, stmichael, smeg, bigmick, cool hand luke, shanks74, the hustler, Oasis, bad bob, dalglish, LFC#1, LFC, supersub, Dawson99 and one or two others...

Posted: **Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:33 am**

WHY ALL THE BULL?

if Rafa thinks hes a good buy, then that should be good enough,
some on here are obcessed with out of towners supporting LFC,
why?

Posted: **Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:36 am**

Actually the only person I'm in a snit with is Peu Weu. I think Bad Bob is cool. I like our discussions. I've even quoted him to a few of my mates. Oasis I find a tad condescending and who the hell is Karim? What did he do? Did he get thrown off the forum or something?
Here is a clue.
I must be female because I type lots. The rest of you boys type one liners. Everyone knows girls talk loads well we type loads too.
Besides If I was Karim I would have figured out how the quote thing works by now.

Liverpool FC Forum

What is kuyt really worth?