Liverpool FC Forum

Posted: **Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:02 pm**

Bammo wrote:There's a huge difference between long ball and direct football. Long ball means hoofing it aimlessly up front and I agree, that doesn't work.

Direct football means getting it forward quickly and not necessarily through the air. Teams like Arsenal who push a lot of players forwards are susceptable to being hiton the break. Too many times when we counter attack we slow the play down and allow teams to regroup.

By the way, I mentioned this as a way to counteract Arsenal, not to suggest we set up every game to play on the counter. Against most teams we have the quality to play free-flowing attacking football.

Is there a difference? I fail to see it. Hitting it forward as quick as possible missing out the midfield is long ball/direct wimbleson style football. Not good enough!!!

Posted: **Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:04 pm**

Wilhelmsson wrote:If God had intended for us to play football in the clouds he wouldn't have put grass on the ground.

Our players are far better on paper than Arsenals team.

Trouble was the b@stards insisted we played on grass

Posted: **Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:11 pm**

Emerald Red wrote:It's as simple as this: if the league is priority, and we haven't yet won it under Rafa in 3 years, then NO progress has been made. Same goes for any manager that comes in. Fail to win the league regardless of points, and there's been no progress. End of.

Cups are a different matter, and when you think about it, the likes of Spurs or even West Ham can make those finals, so go figure. And if it's the CL in question, then years ago we had to have made the best possible progress in the league to even get near it to win it i.e like actually being champions of your league first and foremost. Obviously.

Yes 'but years ago' is not now the CL format is very much about creating a European super league and like it or not it remains the most lucartive and sought after title - and we won it under Rafa, by beating some power houses of Europe !

It is amazing how now we seem to belittle the CL win - ask those players at chelsea what they want the most and a good run in the CL will be top of the list.

Of course winning the league is the one for us - but lets not forget there has been plenty of cr.ap to off-load, interesting to compare the current squad to the Houllier misfits - wonder how that would pan out !

It's not use saying - years ago - speak of the hear and now and you'll fins much has changed!

Posted: **Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:40 pm**

puroresu wrote:Is there a difference? I fail to see it. Hitting it forward as quick as possible missing out the midfield is long ball/direct wimbleson style football. Not good enough!!!

I'll explain it again then. At no point did I say we should miss the midfield out.

Long ball = hitting the ball aimlessly forwards through the air.

Direct counter-attack = playing the ball forwards quickly. This can be through the air but often on the ground, using quick passes.

Last year's goal of the season on MOTD (Rooney vs Bolton) was a perfect example of what I mean by this. From a Bolton corner Ronaldo and Rooney play passes between them as they quickly travel the length of the field. The ball never left the floor after it was out of Utd's box.

The only time we've done this is Gerrard vs Everton and we got a penalty from it. Or would you rather he'd waited for everyone to catch up so we could try and put 20+ passes together?

Posted: **Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:00 pm**

I suppose at the end of the day its how you define progress.

It can't be as simple as just looking at the league table at the end of every season. If you did that every manager would be sacked after a couple of years.

Improving the squad/team ? Surely that says as much about the money available ,as it does about the managers abilities.

Cups and trophies? We won nothing last year so sack the manager?

So what progress have we achieved under Rafa ?

Posted: **Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:05 pm**

Well the squad has definitely improved. Under Houllier the debate over who would partner Gerrard in CM was between Hamann, Biscan or Diao - no contest!

Now we have Mascherano, Sissoko and Alonso to choose from.

OK, we're not that strong across every position but the fact that starting XI threads create so much debate must indicate we've got better players to choose from.

Posted: **Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:08 pm**

Bammo wrote:
puroresu wrote:Is there a difference? I fail to see it. Hitting it forward as quick as possible missing out the midfield is long ball/direct wimbleson style football. Not good enough!!!

I'll explain it again then. At no point did I say we should miss the midfield out.

Long ball = hitting the ball aimlessly forwards through the air.

Direct counter-attack = playing the ball forwards quickly. This can be through the air but often on the ground, using quick passes.

Last year's goal of the season on MOTD (Rooney vs Bolton) was a perfect example of what I mean by this. From a Bolton corner Ronaldo and Rooney play passes between them as they quickly travel the length of the field. The ball never left the floor after it was out of Utd's box.

The only time we've done this is Gerrard vs Everton and we got a penalty from it. Or would you rather he'd waited for everyone to catch up so we could try and put 20+ passes together?

No what I wanna see is the side actually string more than 10 passes together. I want too see 1 aand 2 touch passing, triangles and most important the ball being passed on the deck quickly with intelligent moving. How can it be the case that the side under Roy Evans played better football than the side today? That side actually passed and moved.

How many times do we actually cut sides open cos I dont see it?

Posted: **Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:26 am**

I agree with you puroresu. We're basically arguing for the same thing but from different approaches

We seem to lack the ability to pass our way through teams. When we do put lots of passes together it doesn't end up with a chance. Normally we'll pass it around their box then lay it all the way back for a defender to chip it in. (that was a flaw with the evans team too).

I want players who can pass their way through teams. To do this we need to speed up the pace we play at. Early on, we were doing this. The game against villa gave me hope for the season because we were running at their defence and there was lots of movement.

Recently we've not been doing this. Whether it's confidence or Rafa's instructions (doubt it), our players run into positions but then stop. It's so frustrating to see someone on the ball waiting for movement but every player is standing still.

Maybe Rafa should play "pass and move (it's the liverpool groove)" to the players before every game

Posted: **Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:52 am**

s@int wrote:
Wilhelmsson wrote:If God had intended for us to play football in the clouds he wouldn't have put grass on the ground.

Our players are far better on paper than Arsenals team.

Trouble was the b@stards insisted we played on grass

Posted: **Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:05 am**

Wilhelmsson wrote:sadly I am still naïve and that shall be my ruin

Well, I agreed with that part of your post anyway.

Posted: **Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:18 am**

Bammo wrote:I agree with you puroresu. We're basically arguing for the same thing but from different approaches

We seem to lack the ability to pass our way through teams. When we do put lots of passes together it doesn't end up with a chance. Normally we'll pass it around their box then lay it all the way back for a defender to chip it in. (that was a flaw with the evans team too).

I want players who can pass their way through teams. To do this we need to speed up the pace we play at. Early on, we were doing this. The game against villa gave me hope for the season because we were running at their defence and there was lots of movement.

Recently we've not been doing this. Whether it's confidence or Rafa's instructions (doubt it), our players run into positions but then stop. It's so frustrating to see someone on the ball waiting for movement but every player is standing still.

Maybe Rafa should play "pass and move (it's the liverpool groove)" to the players before every game

What we need is confidence. Once we have that back we'll be sorted. We got the win against Everton and got a good point against Arsenal. We dont lack the ability to pass we just lack confidence and as a supporter it is very frustrating to watch because your not just watching one player off form its the entire team. Many dont like the way we were hanging on against Arsenal but to me I thought we did very well, were not on form but there keeper saved them from losing and we are getting our confidence back. Onwards and upwards !

Posted: **Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:18 am**

s@int wrote:I suppose at the end of the day its how you define progress.

It can't be as simple as just looking at the league table at the end of every season. If you did that every manager would be sacked after a couple of years.

Improving the squad/team ? Surely that says as much about the money available ,as it does about the managers abilities.

Cups and trophies? We won nothing last year so sack the manager?

So what progress have we achieved under Rafa ?

It's almost a gut instinct thing for me, mate. If it feels like we're moving forward I'm happy. If it feels like we're standing still or moving backward, it needs sorting.

Take last year. It was a disappointing league campaign, given our form during the run in the previous year. But we were brilliant in the CL and we had new owners coming in that promised to splash the cash in the summer. Thus, I was reasonably content last May that we were moving forward and that if we just ironed out a few wrinkles with our league form and played the way we were capable of, we'd run the title a lot closer this year.

So, do I still feel like we are moving forward in my gut? I'm not so sure, at the moment. We got out of the blocks very well but there's no question that we've struggled for weeks now. We've had some poor luck with injuries but Rafa's also made some questionable selection and substitution decisions. And, we've got a lot of players who suddenly look very ordinary.

My hope is that we can ride out this current rough patch and put together a little run to keep us within sight of the leaders. I also hope that we go on a run in at least one of the cups and give us all the hope of seeing more silverware in the trophy case. If those things happen, I think Rafa will have done enough to stay on as manager.

But next summer will be absolutely pivotal. Big Mick's already said as much in terms of the rotation policy but I also think that Rafa will have to be immaculate in his transfer dealings next summer. Will he be prepared to sell the likes of Riise, Sissoko, Kuyt and Voronin in order to bring in another Torres-calibre striker, a top class winger (or two), a quality CB and a fullback that can both defend and get forward? We'll see.

Posted: **Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:48 am**

Bad Bob wrote:So, do I still feel like we are moving forward in my gut? I'm not so sure, at the moment. We got out of the blocks very well but there's no question that we've struggled for weeks now. We've had some poor luck with injuries but Rafa's also made some questionable selection and substitution decisions. And, we've got a lot of players who suddenly look very ordinary.

Would this be our confidence doo dah? Id like to think so, whatever anyone thinks of the season so far we are still unbeaten in the league there is just Arsenal left to go on a bad run and I think it will happen against Man Utd. We are far from our best and Arsenal left Anfield happy with a point, If I was in Wengers position id be questioning why we only got a point? Especially as LFC were severely weakened with injurys. If they left happy with a point I would hazard a guess that Wenger also knows that if they hit injurys they will struggle worse than what Liverpool are. I think the cardiff game could have a great influence onto our forthcoming fixtures, with regards to confidence.

Posted: **Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:37 am**

Bammo wrote:Long ball = hitting the ball aimlessly forwards through the air.

Direct counter-attack = playing the ball forwards quickly. This can be through the air but often on the ground, using quick passes.

Not sure we have been watching the same games mate. I would argue our football has been FAR TOO DIRECT for much of this season. The ball is being forced forward TOO quickly, too many hollywood balls and risking possession when we could and should be retaining it. Much of this ( i think) is due to the addition of Torres. Thanks to his pace, strength and determination he is well capable (as we have seen) of turning a hopeful punt into a great ball. But it comes with a downside, how many times have we seen Reina quickly smash a flat kick into the corners in the hope Torres will get on the end of it? And he's not the only one guilty of it, you could point the finger at Gerrard, Riise, the two centre-halves and probably a few more. Too many balls into space and not enough into feet. and as for playing counter-attacking football, we only really get the chance to play this way against the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea and the mancs.

Posted: **Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:31 am**

Sabre wrote:Hiddink? it's the second time I see him mentioned, and this time it has been mentioned by ConnO'var who doesn't speak shíte. I'd like to ask him what he finds interesting about the man, whether he want to answer here, in PM or another section of the forum, is his choice! -- or not answering at all of course is another option.

It was half in jest mate, even though I actually do rate the man...

But this thread has some very nice discussion going on with points being raised that I find interesting... kudos to you all with special mention to Bammo...

So I'm loathe to spoil/derail it by discussing Hiddink here as he has no relevance to our progress to date.

I'll send you a PM.... :laugh:

Liverpool FC Forum

Progress?