Page 16 of 21
Posted:
Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:39 pmby tonyeh
Sabre wrote:tonyeh wrote:Jesus........I just can't read that Sabre....sorry.
The lads who use that red text on here are blinding me.
Humm... I turned it red a lot time ago in some sort of gesture to support the team in a difficult moment -- can't remember
But the last day I was thinking about the legibility when reading newkit in another screen that's not mine, I did see that depending on the screen it was difficult to read.
So, I'll revert to black font. Thanks for the comment.
Sorry Sabre, I'm not trying to be knickery.
Red on grey though... 
Posted:
Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:29 pmby Ace Ventura
I have skimmed over the last couple of pages of this thread, as i have already clearly stated my opinion that the players and Rafa did well to come back from 2 down away at one of the trickier fixtures this season i wont harp on.
Just a side note about what Stu (fo dne) was talking about.
How deep are midfield and team in general are at times. I dont think necessarily it is because of who is playing there. It can be Gerrard and Alonso at times and they are still imo far far too deep, then the wide players dont push on and the full backs are static - as ours are not naturally attacking players and it all becomes very predictable and easy to defend.
I think Stevie although brilliant against Everton doing this can be too deep trying to be disciplined (because Rafa has criticised him in the past) and then the whole team struggles to know when to push forward, especially as none of our defenders do this as they are scared of being exposed with balls over the top on counter attacks etc.
Its why imo we struggle to exert enough pressure i games we dominate and why at times we are far to easy to defend against.
It would take guts on Rafas part to trust his players but i feel at times he would rather be tight and try and nick a goal than really have a go.
Thats why the last 15 at city i was so pleased, Rafas subs in this game and the positions the players were taking up underlined a totally different approach, not settling for what we had (like in the past) but really having a go.
Am not sure if we will continue to see Rafa play a five man midfield in difficult games then change things near the end in the future if we are i with a shout or if it was a one off.
Lets hope its a sign of things to come, as his usual substitutions were a full back for a striker when we were behind etc.
Anyway...thoughts on how deep we play at times....or should that be in another thread ?
Posted:
Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:28 pmby JC_81
Ace Ventura wrote:I have skimmed over the last couple of pages of this thread, as i have already clearly stated my opinion that the players and Rafa did well to come back from 2 down away at one of the trickier fixtures this season i wont harp on.
Just a side note about what Stu (fo dne) was talking about.
How deep are midfield and team in general are at times. I dont think necessarily it is because of who is playing there. It can be Gerrard and Alonso at times and they are still imo far far too deep, then the wide players dont push on and the full backs are static - as ours are not naturally attacking players and it all becomes very predictable and easy to defend.
I think Stevie although brilliant against Everton doing this can be too deep trying to be disciplined (because Rafa has criticised him in the past) and then the whole team struggles to know when to push forward, especially as none of our defenders do this as they are scared of being exposed with balls over the top on counter attacks etc.
Its why imo we struggle to exert enough pressure i games we dominate and why at times we are far to easy to defend against.
It would take guts on Rafas part to trust his players but i feel at times he would rather be tight and try and nick a goal than really have a go.
Thats why the last 15 at city i was so pleased, Rafas subs in this game and the positions the players were taking up underlined a totally different approach, not settling for what we had (like in the past) but really having a go.
Am not sure if we will continue to see Rafa play a five man midfield in difficult games then change things near the end in the future if we are i with a shout or if it was a one off.
Lets hope its a sign of things to come, as his usual substitutions were a full back for a striker when we were behind etc.
Anyway...thoughts on how deep we play at times....or should that be in another thread ?
Not sure Ace.
Certainly the games away at Sunderland, Marseille and Man City (first half) I see what you mean about Gerrard playing very deep. However away at Everton and in our home games our central midfielders have played reasonably high (even against United at Anfield when it was Alonso and Masch pressing). I think it directly depends on the specific instructions given by Benitez for certain games.
Gerrard has, in general, been playing a lot deeper this season but I don't see it as a problem. Part of the reason is that Keane drops off and occupies the space 'between the lines' so Gerrard possibly has less space to operate there and is more liable to sit or break forward later than he used to. I think Keane has been doing a good job linking play despite just the one goal and I think the this season Gerrard has been excellent in the games he's played as an out and out central midfielder.
I probably also slightly disagree about the full backs not pushing on and wide players being static this season. I think Riera's movement is very intelligent and he's given good balance down the left. Kuyt has had his moments, and I like the guy, but he's a weakness in terms of our attacking fluidity. I think the full backs pushing on has been a feature of our tactics this season, moreso at Anfield, trouble is Arbeloa, Aurelio and Dossena don't offer much of a threat in the final third. Basically I think they're getting forward enough, therefore tactically I'm happy enough, but we could do with better individuals than our current full backs in the long term.
Posted:
Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:03 pmby Fo Dne
Ace Ventura wrote:I have skimmed over the last couple of pages of this thread, as i have already clearly stated my opinion that the players and Rafa did well to come back from 2 down away at one of the trickier fixtures this season i wont harp on.
Just a side note about what Stu (fo dne) was talking about.
How deep are midfield and team in general are at times. I dont think necessarily it is because of who is playing there. It can be Gerrard and Alonso at times and they are still imo far far too deep, then the wide players dont push on and the full backs are static - as ours are not naturally attacking players and it all becomes very predictable and easy to defend.
I think Stevie although brilliant against Everton doing this can be too deep trying to be disciplined (because Rafa has criticised him in the past) and then the whole team struggles to know when to push forward, especially as none of our defenders do this as they are scared of being exposed with balls over the top on counter attacks etc.
Its why imo we struggle to exert enough pressure i games we dominate and why at times we are far to easy to defend against.
It would take guts on Rafas part to trust his players but i feel at times he would rather be tight and try and nick a goal than really have a go.
Thats why the last 15 at city i was so pleased, Rafas subs in this game and the positions the players were taking up underlined a totally different approach, not settling for what we had (like in the past) but really having a go.
Am not sure if we will continue to see Rafa play a five man midfield in difficult games then change things near the end in the future if we are i with a shout or if it was a one off.
Lets hope its a sign of things to come, as his usual substitutions were a full back for a striker when we were behind etc.
Anyway...thoughts on how deep we play at times....or should that be in another thread ?
To be fair, I would usually (but didn't, due to being extremely 
off with Rafa in the first place for a team selection) pick up on that fact that he actually made a positive change in bringing a striker on for a midfielder.
To be honest, It does make a nice change from taking Gerrard or Torres off when we need a goal.
It was the right change, but the question needs to be asked would we have been in the situation had that team started in the first place? I don't think we would, I think we'd have seen a greater influence from Gerrard and more pressure from both Keane and Torres from the off.
Lets face it, Torres was having a mare aswell untill he scored.
Posted:
Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:16 pmby Ace Ventura
Glad to have two replies to the question, and John i agree about it being under Rafas instruction that the players where deep.
Against Everton, they allowed us that much time and space we eventually pushed on, but i think first half we were too deep.
I can understand it as they are hard games and we dont want to lose but i really think Rafa (as with end of the city game) should allow the players to play further up the pitch and make the opposition worry about us a bit more.
Posted:
Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:17 pmby Ace Ventura
Fo Dne wrote:Ace Ventura wrote:I have skimmed over the last couple of pages of this thread, as i have already clearly stated my opinion that the players and Rafa did well to come back from 2 down away at one of the trickier fixtures this season i wont harp on.
Just a side note about what Stu (fo dne) was talking about.
How deep are midfield and team in general are at times. I dont think necessarily it is because of who is playing there. It can be Gerrard and Alonso at times and they are still imo far far too deep, then the wide players dont push on and the full backs are static - as ours are not naturally attacking players and it all becomes very predictable and easy to defend.
I think Stevie although brilliant against Everton doing this can be too deep trying to be disciplined (because Rafa has criticised him in the past) and then the whole team struggles to know when to push forward, especially as none of our defenders do this as they are scared of being exposed with balls over the top on counter attacks etc.
Its why imo we struggle to exert enough pressure i games we dominate and why at times we are far to easy to defend against.
It would take guts on Rafas part to trust his players but i feel at times he would rather be tight and try and nick a goal than really have a go.
Thats why the last 15 at city i was so pleased, Rafas subs in this game and the positions the players were taking up underlined a totally different approach, not settling for what we had (like in the past) but really having a go.
Am not sure if we will continue to see Rafa play a five man midfield in difficult games then change things near the end in the future if we are i with a shout or if it was a one off.
Lets hope its a sign of things to come, as his usual substitutions were a full back for a striker when we were behind etc.
Anyway...thoughts on how deep we play at times....or should that be in another thread ?
To be fair, I would usually (but didn't, due to being extremely off with Rafa in the first place for a team selection) pick up on that fact that he actually made a positive change in bringing a striker on for a midfielder.
To be honest, It does make a nice change from taking Gerrard or Torres off when we need a goal.
It was the right change, but the question needs to be asked would we have been in the situation had that team started in the first place? I don't think we would, I think we'd have seen a greater influence from Gerrard and more pressure from both Keane and Torres from the off.
Lets face it, Torres was having a mare aswell untill he scored.
I agree mate but can see why he made that change - to the initial team.
just think at times we are FAR too deep and allow opposing defenders to get back too easily.
Posted:
Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:18 amby Fo Dne
Ace Ventura wrote:Fo Dne wrote:Ace Ventura wrote:I have skimmed over the last couple of pages of this thread, as i have already clearly stated my opinion that the players and Rafa did well to come back from 2 down away at one of the trickier fixtures this season i wont harp on.
Just a side note about what Stu (fo dne) was talking about.
How deep are midfield and team in general are at times. I dont think necessarily it is because of who is playing there. It can be Gerrard and Alonso at times and they are still imo far far too deep, then the wide players dont push on and the full backs are static - as ours are not naturally attacking players and it all becomes very predictable and easy to defend.
I think Stevie although brilliant against Everton doing this can be too deep trying to be disciplined (because Rafa has criticised him in the past) and then the whole team struggles to know when to push forward, especially as none of our defenders do this as they are scared of being exposed with balls over the top on counter attacks etc.
Its why imo we struggle to exert enough pressure i games we dominate and why at times we are far to easy to defend against.
It would take guts on Rafas part to trust his players but i feel at times he would rather be tight and try and nick a goal than really have a go.
Thats why the last 15 at city i was so pleased, Rafas subs in this game and the positions the players were taking up underlined a totally different approach, not settling for what we had (like in the past) but really having a go.
Am not sure if we will continue to see Rafa play a five man midfield in difficult games then change things near the end in the future if we are i with a shout or if it was a one off.
Lets hope its a sign of things to come, as his usual substitutions were a full back for a striker when we were behind etc.
Anyway...thoughts on how deep we play at times....or should that be in another thread ?
To be fair, I would usually (but didn't, due to being extremely
off with Rafa in the first place for a
team selection) pick up on that fact that he actually made a positive change in bringing a striker on for a midfielder.
To be honest, It does make a nice change from taking Gerrard or Torres off when we need a goal.
It was the right change, but the question needs to be asked would we have been in the situation had that team started in the first place? I don't think we would, I think we'd have seen a greater influence from Gerrard and more pressure from both Keane and Torres from the off.
Lets face it, Torres was having a mare aswell untill he scored.
I agree mate but can see why he made that change - to the initial team.
just think at times we are FAR too deep and allow opposing defenders to get back too easily.
Dya know what ace, I used to defend Houllier like that lad. The fact is, my attitude towards it all has changed so much since I've read so many things by players which I've experienced myself (obviously not to the same level) and spoke to coaches and managers who've done these things.
Its made me really cynical about the game if I'm honest and the way certain things are done. Make no mistake, managers player players "just to give them game time" in cases and they will also do things to massage their own ego, in the same way players will react badly to certain things. Some players come off and are off, others are selfish, others highly professional and others like little children.
I'm sick of the over analysing of the game and feel its a massive massive problem in why this countries national team in particular is starting to suffer.
The country as a hole these days is so obbsessed with skills, techniques, drills, athlete's, tactics and all the other that they completely fail to do the basics and teach the kids how to do the important stuff.
LEARNING TO PLAY FOOTY AND ENJOYING IT!
Posted:
Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:41 amby andy_g
gerrard to john terry: "so which one do you want then, lucas or babel?"
Posted:
Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:35 amby Thewaykokid
I can't see why Rafa would change the formation me self, just as we finally looked like we were finally getting used to the 4-4-2, everything gets screwed, Mascherano is pretty hopeless in an attacking sense, and Gerrard was completely insignificant on the right. Playing the 4-2-3-1 formation was meant to help us defensively, and we conceded 2 in the fisrt half with no reply, so it obviously didnt do much. You could say that the goals were a bit hard to stop, the free kick, Reina was out of position, and the first goal was poor to say the least. But a goal is a goal, and we where dominated in the first half 
Oh i would like to add that i am a raving Keane supporter................he's just got too much character to resist
Posted:
Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:43 amby GYBS
mistakes that were made werent becuase of the formation - that was down to individual errors on the day . and gerrard wasnt playing out right , was playing in the role where he was outstanding last season - just behind torres .
Posted:
Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:00 amby stmichael
Two games time we play Chelsea away. There isn't a chance in he'll that Rafa will play Gerrard in a central midfield two in that one otherwise we'll get completely overrun.
The formation will change depending on the opposition. Don't be surprised to see Gerrard off the striker against Athletico aswell.
Posted:
Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:12 amby tonyeh
Thewaykokid wrote:I can't see why Rafa would change the formation me self, just as we finally looked like we were finally getting used to the 4-4-2, everything gets screwed, Mascherano is pretty hopeless in an attacking sense, and Gerrard was completely insignificant on the right. Playing the 4-2-3-1 formation was meant to help us defensively, and we conceded 2 in the fisrt half with no reply, so it obviously didnt do much. You could say that the goals were a bit hard to stop, the free kick, Reina was out of position, and the first goal was poor to say the least. But a goal is a goal, and we where dominated in the first half
Oh i would like to add that i am a raving Keane supporter................he's just got too much character to resist
True, the goals probably would have been scored, even if Rafa had stuck to the 4-4-2 formation...however, with the 4-2-3-1 formation, our opportunities to reply were severely limited. Torres couldn't pick his bum without having at least two City defenders on him in a second and his only decent ball feeder Gerrard was nowhere to be seen.
Posted:
Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:10 pmby Fo Dne
andy_g wrote:gerrard to john terry: "so which one do you want then, lucas or babel?"
Posted:
Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:12 pmby Fo Dne
GYBS wrote:mistakes that were made werent becuase of the formation - that was down to individual errors on the day . and gerrard wasnt playing out right , was playing in the role where he was outstanding last season - just behind torres .
You define clueless.