Liverpool FC Forum

Posted: **Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:29 pm**

You got it spot on there Leon

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:31 pm**

I remember coming away from the Boro game earlier in the season absolutely made up that he went all out attack (we were more or less playing two at the back by the end of the game) and we managed to get all three points. He just seems to have abandoned that way of thinking and reverted back to his old ways of making sure we keep hold of a point instead of going all out for the win. He just seems to have sacked off the plan B of going all out at these lesser teams. That game on Saturday was made for someone like Crouch.

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:36 pm**

stmichael wrote:I remember coming away from the Boro game earlier in the season absolutely made up that he went all out attack (we were more or less playing two at the back by the end of the game) and we managed to get all three points. He just seems to have abandoned that way of thinking and reverted back to his old ways of making sure we keep hold of a point instead of going all out for the win. He just seems to have sacked off the plan B of going all out at these lesser teams. That game yesterday was made for someone like Crouch.

You're a disgrace St Mick, an embarassment and I don't know how you can calkl yourself a Liverpool fan.

Having said that

(sorry mate) I was a bit disappointed we didn't go for it more on Saturday as well. Playing with a proper striker for a bit would have been a start I reckon.

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:48 pm**

I just think a lot of fans, especially ones near where I sit are so geared towards his shortcomings now that there are probably times when they don't recognise or give credit to the positive things he's brought to us. In fairness, he has made us a great cup team because he knows how to make us hard to beat. That doesn't help in the league though when you have to go out and beat teams. We seem to be doing it with amazing regularity away from home but the home form and some of the managers substitutions have been bizarre to say the least.

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:53 pm**

stmichael wrote:I remember coming away from the Boro game earlier in the season absolutely made up that he went all out attack (we were more or less playing two at the back by the end of the game) and we managed to get all three points. He just seems to have abandoned that way of thinking and reverted back to his old ways of making sure we keep hold of a point instead of going all out for the win. He just seems to have sacked off the plan B of going all out at these lesser teams. That game on Saturday was made for someone like Crouch.

I was thinking the same thing after Saturday and after the West Ham game as well.
Earlier in the season we were really going for broke to try and get the win, the Boro game and city away two obvious games were we done it and came away with 3 points, sort of like United and Chelsea have done over the last few years.
I know that its not going to work every time but you are more likely to nick a winner with more attacking players on the pitch.
Robbie Keane not being brought on against Hull left me scratching my head almost as much as Crouch not being used in the champions league final when we were behind at the end.
And i am convinced there was more to it than Rafa merely going with other options (sat i mean), to me he was definately being stubborn, and he didnt get away with it.
Thankfully yet again, he did to an extent as the other three also only drew, but that surely cant continue to happen.
What i will say (maybe controversialy to some) is at this moment and time we are now top despite Rafa, am not saying he hasnt done well so far this season, more that the last 4-5 games he has started making mistakes that fortunately havent put is in a far worse position.

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:19 pm**

I watched the game again last night on SKY+.

It was at times like the Alomo, and we had at LEAST five chances that where clear cut and should have (and probably wowuld have at the foot of TorreS) resulted in goals.

I think some people are letting frustration cloud their judgement.

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:20 pm**

Ace Ventura wrote:
stmichael wrote:I remember coming away from the Boro game earlier in the season absolutely made up that he went all out attack (we were more or less playing two at the back by the end of the game) and we managed to get all three points. He just seems to have abandoned that way of thinking and reverted back to his old ways of making sure we keep hold of a point instead of going all out for the win. He just seems to have sacked off the plan B of going all out at these lesser teams. That game on Saturday was made for someone like Crouch.

I was thinking the same thing after Saturday and after the West Ham game as well.
Earlier in the season we were really going for broke to try and get the win, the Boro game and city away two obvious games were we done it and came away with 3 points, sort of like United and Chelsea have done over the last few years.
I know that its not going to work every time but you are more likely to nick a winner with more attacking players on the pitch.
Robbie Keane not being brought on against Hull left me scratching my head almost as much as Crouch not being used in the champions league final when we were behind at the end.
And i am convinced there was more to it than Rafa merely going with other options (sat i mean), to me he was definately being stubborn, and he didnt get away with it.
Thankfully yet again, he did to an extent as the other three also only drew, but that surely cant continue to happen.
What i will say (maybe controversialy to some) is at this moment and time we are now top despite Rafa, am not saying he hasnt done well so far this season, more that the last 4-5 games he has started making mistakes that fortunately havent put is in a far worse position.

Do you not think we through everything at Hull Satdee lad ?

Also show me a manager ho does not make mistakes.

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:33 pm**

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
stmichael wrote:I remember coming away from the Boro game earlier in the season absolutely made up that he went all out attack (we were more or less playing two at the back by the end of the game) and we managed to get all three points. He just seems to have abandoned that way of thinking and reverted back to his old ways of making sure we keep hold of a point instead of going all out for the win. He just seems to have sacked off the plan B of going all out at these lesser teams. That game on Saturday was made for someone like Crouch.

I was thinking the same thing after Saturday and after the West Ham game as well.
Earlier in the season we were really going for broke to try and get the win, the Boro game and city away two obvious games were we done it and came away with 3 points, sort of like United and Chelsea have done over the last few years.
I know that its not going to work every time but you are more likely to nick a winner with more attacking players on the pitch.
Robbie Keane not being brought on against Hull left me scratching my head almost as much as Crouch not being used in the champions league final when we were behind at the end.
And i am convinced there was more to it than Rafa merely going with other options (sat i mean), to me he was definately being stubborn, and he didnt get away with it.
Thankfully yet again, he did to an extent as the other three also only drew, but that surely cant continue to happen.
What i will say (maybe controversialy to some) is at this moment and time we are now top despite Rafa, am not saying he hasnt done well so far this season, more that the last 4-5 games he has started making mistakes that fortunately havent put is in a far worse position.

Do you not think we through everything at Hull Satdee lad ?

Also show me a manager ho does not make mistakes.

Yeah we did throw everything we had (on the pitch) at Hull, but earier in the seaon...like the two games i mentioned first post, we actually did try EVERY option and it paid off.
Now am not saying if Robbie had come on we would have won, as he has been far from spectacular so far, but if you ask me with 20 minutes to go and you need a goal could he possibly provide a killer pass or pop up at the right time then i would say yes, there is a very good possibility.
All managers will make mistakes but am not sure there are many that would spend the bulk of the transfer budget on a striker...and then not bring him on when there star striker is out injured and a goal is needed in a home game your dominating.
That for me was stubborness, and it was the same against Fulham when he wouldnt bring Lucas off, gambling with points because of his own stubborness and pride, thats my take on it.

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:10 pm**

1. Stadium

Liverpool will always struggle at home since Anfield is a very small pitch and easy to defend. This has been a problem for many years.

2. The job

Tha know nothings who want to sack Benitez is looking to replace him with Steve McLaren or Paul Ince?

Benitez is the best manager in the world and has overperformed compared to his rivals. He is up against Chelsea with unlimited purchasing power, Man U with tree times as much at hand and Arsenal with almost as much as United. Benitez task is making a cheap sedan beat a porche and he is almost successful.

3. Signings

Yes Benitez has failed miserably this year. Robbie Keane was signed for ridiculous amounts. For that kind of money you expect unique talent and a young hungry talent. Keane is slow, old, boring to watch, cant shoot, no treath in the air, can't go past the defender, can't change anything on his own. This is the worst signing i can remember. Benitez has however a fantastic record. He has signed world class talents like Alonso, Mascherano, Reina, Skrtl, Agger and I also like Babel, Arbeloa, Aurelio, El Zhar, Benayoun, Riera,,,

You can't always be right. But his track record is definately as good as that of Fergie.

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:13 pm**

Ace Ventura wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
stmichael wrote:I remember coming away from the Boro game earlier in the season absolutely made up that he went all out attack (we were more or less playing two at the back by the end of the game) and we managed to get all three points. He just seems to have abandoned that way of thinking and reverted back to his old ways of making sure we keep hold of a point instead of going all out for the win. He just seems to have sacked off the plan B of going all out at these lesser teams. That game on Saturday was made for someone like Crouch.

I was thinking the same thing after Saturday and after the West Ham game as well.
Earlier in the season we were really going for broke to try and get the win, the Boro game and city away two obvious games were we done it and came away with 3 points, sort of like United and Chelsea have done over the last few years.
I know that its not going to work every time but you are more likely to nick a winner with more attacking players on the pitch.
Robbie Keane not being brought on against Hull left me scratching my head almost as much as Crouch not being used in the champions league final when we were behind at the end.
And i am convinced there was more to it than Rafa merely going with other options (sat i mean), to me he was definately being stubborn, and he didnt get away with it.
Thankfully yet again, he did to an extent as the other three also only drew, but that surely cant continue to happen.
What i will say (maybe controversialy to some) is at this moment and time we are now top despite Rafa, am not saying he hasnt done well so far this season, more that the last 4-5 games he has started making mistakes that fortunately havent put is in a far worse position.

Do you not think we through everything at Hull Satdee lad ?

Also show me a manager ho does not make mistakes.

Yeah we did throw everything we had (on the pitch) at Hull, but earier in the seaon...like the two games i mentioned first post, we actually did try EVERY option and it paid off.
Now am not saying if Robbie had come on we would have won, as he has been far from spectacular so far, but if you ask me with 20 minutes to go and you need a goal could he possibly provide a killer pass or pop up at the right time then i would say yes, there is a very good possibility.
All managers will make mistakes but am not sure there are many that would spend the bulk of the transfer budget on a striker...and then not bring him on when there star striker is out injured and a goal is needed in a home game your dominating.
That for me was stubborness, and it was the same against Fulham when he wouldnt bring Lucas off, gambling with points because of his own stubborness and pride, thats my take on it.

You think that the guy leaves people on or off the pitch to prove a point ?

You think he makes decisions on his substitutions NOT to win games but just to prove he is the best manager ?

Personally, I think the easiest way for any manager ot prove his worth is to win points, games, leagues and cups NOT to leave a player on in hte hope he scores a goal just to prove he was worth selecting/ buying.

Think about it.

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:19 pm**

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
stmichael wrote:I remember coming away from the Boro game earlier in the season absolutely made up that he went all out attack (we were more or less playing two at the back by the end of the game) and we managed to get all three points. He just seems to have abandoned that way of thinking and reverted back to his old ways of making sure we keep hold of a point instead of going all out for the win. He just seems to have sacked off the plan B of going all out at these lesser teams. That game on Saturday was made for someone like Crouch.

I was thinking the same thing after Saturday and after the West Ham game as well.
Earlier in the season we were really going for broke to try and get the win, the Boro game and city away two obvious games were we done it and came away with 3 points, sort of like United and Chelsea have done over the last few years.
I know that its not going to work every time but you are more likely to nick a winner with more attacking players on the pitch.
Robbie Keane not being brought on against Hull left me scratching my head almost as much as Crouch not being used in the champions league final when we were behind at the end.
And i am convinced there was more to it than Rafa merely going with other options (sat i mean), to me he was definately being stubborn, and he didnt get away with it.
Thankfully yet again, he did to an extent as the other three also only drew, but that surely cant continue to happen.
What i will say (maybe controversialy to some) is at this moment and time we are now top despite Rafa, am not saying he hasnt done well so far this season, more that the last 4-5 games he has started making mistakes that fortunately havent put is in a far worse position.

Do you not think we through everything at Hull Satdee lad ?

Also show me a manager ho does not make mistakes.

Yeah we did throw everything we had (on the pitch) at Hull, but earier in the seaon...like the two games i mentioned first post, we actually did try EVERY option and it paid off.
Now am not saying if Robbie had come on we would have won, as he has been far from spectacular so far, but if you ask me with 20 minutes to go and you need a goal could he possibly provide a killer pass or pop up at the right time then i would say yes, there is a very good possibility.
All managers will make mistakes but am not sure there are many that would spend the bulk of the transfer budget on a striker...and then not bring him on when there star striker is out injured and a goal is needed in a home game your dominating.
That for me was stubborness, and it was the same against Fulham when he wouldnt bring Lucas off, gambling with points because of his own stubborness and pride, thats my take on it.

You think that the guy leaves people on or off the pitch to prove a point ?

You think he makes decisions on his substitutions NOT to win games but just to prove he is the best manager ?

Personally, I think the easiest way for any manager ot prove his worth is to win points, games, leagues and cups NOT to leave a player on in hte hope he scores a goal just to prove he was worth selecting/ buying.

Think about it.

No i dont think he does it purposely to drop points/lose games.

I think he does it thinking he can get away with it.
To prove he is boss and no matter what anyone says he will do things his way, the Lucas thing against Fulham was a classic example (IMHO), he knew that he would have critics for starting him against Fulham ahead of an in form Alonso.
So instead of taking him off he took off Mascherano, not because he wanted us to drop points, more because he thought he would get away with it.
I sincerely believe that.

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:42 pm**

The abuse that Rafa gets for his transfers is unnecessary, its a gimmy that all managers make transfer mistakes and lets be honest many managers have made bigger and far more embarrassing transfers.

The unfallable Red Nose bought Eric Djemba Djemba and the Brazilian superstar Keberson, Mourinio bought Ferrera, Parker, Belletti and Sidwell all of which were never good enough to play for a top team, Wenger bought Pascal Cigan and Franny Jeffers enough said on that.

For a change lets be proud of some of the transfers Rafa has made, before he arrived we celebrated the signing of heskey as our biggest and best, Stan Collymore was Roy Evan's Marque signing.

Rafa has signed far better players with hardly any praise Alonso, Reina, Skyrtel, Agger, Mach, Babel, Torres and even Keane.

Because of Rafa we have a team that is full of players who on their day are world class are squad wasn't even close to this level when he replaced Houllier.

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:46 pm**

Ace Ventura wrote:No i dont think he does it purposely to drop points/lose games.

I think he does it thinking he can get away with it.
To prove he is boss and no matter what anyone says he will do things his way, the Lucas thing against Fulham was a classic example (IMHO), he knew that he would have critics for starting him against Fulham ahead of an in form Alonso.
So instead of taking him off he took off Mascherano, not because he wanted us to drop points, more because he thought he would get away with it.
I sincerely believe that.

You dont think that the manager was trying to show the young player he trusts him, encourage him to play and give him some confidence in his own ability the beleif that he is part of the set up and motivation ot play well ?

Skill, Knowledge, Beleif and Motivation - the four key areas for performace of individuals.

Lucas clearly has plenty of skill, and the level of knowlege to be a success at the club, he simply needed some self beleif and the motivation to see that the manager will bring off Mascherano, arguably the best midfielder of his type on the planet off and entrust Lucas with the running of the midfield.

Did you hear Rafa's sound bites aout dont boo, he is from Brasil etc the last month or so.

Maybe this was Rafa doing the arm around hte shoulder ?

Or are we simply to think Rafa is not a man manager, too aloof and only out to prove his owwn pioints ?

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:52 pm**

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:No i dont think he does it purposely to drop points/lose games.

I think he does it thinking he can get away with it.
To prove he is boss and no matter what anyone says he will do things his way, the Lucas thing against Fulham was a classic example (IMHO), he knew that he would have critics for starting him against Fulham ahead of an in form Alonso.
So instead of taking him off he took off Mascherano, not because he wanted us to drop points, more because he thought he would get away with it.
I sincerely believe that.

You dont think that the manager was trying to show the young player he trusts him, encourage him to play and give him some confidence in his own ability the beleif that he is part of the set up and motivation ot play well ?

Skill, Knowledge, Beleif and Motivation - the four key areas for performace of individuals.

Lucas clearly has plenty of skill, and the level of knowlege to be a success at the club, he simply needed some self beleif and the motivation to see that the manager will bring off Mascherano, arguably the best midfielder of his type on the planet off and entrust Lucas with the running of the midfield.

Did you hear Rafa's sound bites aout dont boo, he is from Brasil etc the last month or so.

Maybe this was Rafa doing the arm around hte shoulder ?

Or are we simply to think Rafa is not a man manager, too aloof and only out to prove his owwn pioints ?

Its one way of looking at things Leon, its not somthing that we have heard of much under Rafa though (the arm round the shoulder thing i mean) so am not convinced.
Plus it seemed clearly to the detriment of the team in this instance - again just my opinion i suppose though.

Taking your point on board though, any ideas on why Keane hasnt been given a sniff in the last two league games...man management wise i mean ?

Posted: **Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:24 pm**

Ace Ventura wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:No i dont think he does it purposely to drop points/lose games.

I think he does it thinking he can get away with it.
To prove he is boss and no matter what anyone says he will do things his way, the Lucas thing against Fulham was a classic example (IMHO), he knew that he would have critics for starting him against Fulham ahead of an in form Alonso.
So instead of taking him off he took off Mascherano, not because he wanted us to drop points, more because he thought he would get away with it.
I sincerely believe that.

You dont think that the manager was trying to show the young player he trusts him, encourage him to play and give him some confidence in his own ability the beleif that he is part of the set up and motivation ot play well ?

Skill, Knowledge, Beleif and Motivation - the four key areas for performace of individuals.

Lucas clearly has plenty of skill, and the level of knowlege to be a success at the club, he simply needed some self beleif and the motivation to see that the manager will bring off Mascherano, arguably the best midfielder of his type on the planet off and entrust Lucas with the running of the midfield.

Did you hear Rafa's sound bites aout dont boo, he is from Brasil etc the last month or so.

Maybe this was Rafa doing the arm around hte shoulder ?

Or are we simply to think Rafa is not a man manager, too aloof and only out to prove his owwn pioints ?

Its one way of looking at things Leon, its not somthing that we have heard of much under Rafa though (the arm round the shoulder thing i mean) so am not convinced.
Plus it seemed clearly to the detriment of the team in this instance - again just my opinion i suppose though.

Taking your point on board though, any ideas on why Keane hasnt been given a sniff in the last two league games...man management wise i mean ?

For me, I think KEane has been a bit too big for his boots, and I see Rafa's non selection to be related to form first and foremost (ie his not scoring) AND also his attitude. The shaking of the finger, the look of disguist at his number being held up and the shake of the head.

Personally I want players to give a sh.it about being dragged off - but KEane's attitude has been petulent in my opinion. I get the impression with him that he was the big fish at Spurs - and now he is here he still thinks the World revolves around him. Dont get me wrong, seems a nice guy, down to earth and all reports about him are that he is proper sound, BUT there is a theory that you revert to type, and as he would have been seen as the hero and saviour, he would have naturally come to think this way of himself - so it will be difficult for him to accept it when he is not and EVERYTHING in the play of the team does not go through him.

That said I think once he adapts he wwill be an excellent addition as he is proven at this level.

Where I do feel Rafa got it wrong on KEane however ( hark at me criticising Rafa) are as follows:

1) I dont think he is the type of player that compliments our current side and style of play - that is Torres up front with Gerrard off him is the way we have got to play once all are fit.

2) I do not feel he is value at £20m - I think he is more like a £10m player

3) I would start him and Kuyt up front without Torres fit

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