Page 1 of 1
Recovery - First green shoots?
Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:24 amby Scottbot
Was lucky enough to get away to Amsterdam for a few days so haven't had a chance to read much of the post-match debate on here since the Arsenal game. Have had a quick flick and see the 'Should Rafa Go' thread is a popular one again plus a peek at the match thread where the opinion is more mixed. I was encouraged by what i saw yesterday. Yes we were largely out-played for large spells of the game by a tremendous Arsenal side at the top of their game but i didn't expect much else considering the recent form and confidence levels of the two sides. What i did see was a liverpool side playing with passion, guts and determination, real backs to the wall stuff at times but that is what you have to rely on when confidence is so low. I see a couple of idiots have suggested that we should have gone at Arsenal full-steam ahead and played in the same attacking manner as they do but it NEVER works like that unless you have a bit of form behind you (which we clearly don't) We would have been lucky to win the game but let's not forget Arsenal had to rely on Almunia to pull off a few stops of his own.
First thing for me was the formation. Rafa might just have stumbled on something that could (and should) suit us well over the coming games and i hope to hell he sticks with it home and away. It was essentially a 4-5-1 but i'd envisage more of a 4-3-3 against lesser sides. Gerrard had by far his best game of the season, in fact that was about as well as you will see him play, a BIG BIG plus for the manager and it was good to see him acknowledge the Captain's performance to the press (take note all you posters who complain Rafa doesn't love or a..s...s kiss his players enough) 80% of this board screamed for Gerrard to move back inside last season and while i liked him on the right i also felt the time was right for him to step back into the hub but face facts, Gerrard is often hamstrung playing in a central pairing. Yesterday the shackles were off, he was running at players, playing one-twos, bursting forward, getting in shots, winning 2nd balls and still he marked, tracked and tackled. There is no better sight in football than Steven Gerrard in full flight, doing what he does best in the FINAL THIRD of the pitch. PLEASE stick with this formation Rafa!!!
Next up, our strikers. I quite like Voronin and Kuyt, they're tireless workers, they do a lot of good work outside the box, both work the channels and they can be clever on the ball (more so Voronin) BUT they should not play together as a front two. By far our weakest combination, no focal point to our attack with these two together. A lot of posters feel we have outgrown Peter Crouch, our tactics have changed, we've got Torres now, Crouch is not at our level etc BUT surely it's time to give the lad a run now that Torres is missing in action? A couple of season back Crouch was very effective, i see no reason why he can't be again. Stick with that formation, play Crouch as the focal point, either of Kuyt, Voronin or Babel can play wide in support, have Masch and Lucas play deep and allow Gerrard to join up with the attack through the middle. Gerrard and Crouch have an excellent understanding, it was evident two seasons back and you could see it again at the death yesterday when Stevie ran onto a Crouch chest-down and nearly stole it at the end. Gerrard is at his best laying a ball into feet and running onto or beyond to receive the return ball at pace. We'll never see that happen with Kuyt/Voronin playing together up top and we're unlikely to see it with Gerrard playing in a central two either.
PLEASE STICK WITH THAT FORMATION RAFA!!! IT'S THE WAY FORWARD!!!
Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:31 amby Bad Bob
Scottbot wrote:Was lucky enough to get away to Amsterdam for a few days so haven't had a chance to read much of the post-match debate on here since the Arsenal game. Have had a quick flick and see the 'Should Rafa Go' thread is a popular one again plus a peek at the match thread where the opinion is more mixed. I was encouraged by what i saw yesterday. Yes we were largely out-played for large spells of the game by a tremendous Arsenal side at the top of their game but i didn't expect much else considering the recent form and confidence levels of the two sides. What i did see was a liverpool side playing with passion, guts and determination, real backs to the wall stuff at times but that is what you have to rely on when confidence is so low. I see a couple of idiots have suggested that we should have gone at Arsenal full-steam ahead and played in the same attacking manner as they do but it NEVER works like that unless you have a bit of form behind you (which we clearly don't) We would have been lucky to win the game but let's not forget Arsenal had to rely on Almunia to pull off a few stops of his own.
First thing for me was the formation. Rafa might just have stumbled on something that could (and should) suit us well over the coming games and i hope to hell he sticks with it home and away. It was essentially a 4-5-1 but i'd envisage more of a 4-3-3 against lesser sides. Gerrard had by far his best game of the season, in fact that was about as well as you will see him play, a BIG BIG plus for the manager and it was good to see him acknowledge the Captain's performance to the press (take note all you posters who complain Rafa doesn't love or a..s...s kiss his players enough) 80% of this board screamed for Gerrard to move back inside last season and while i liked him on the right i also felt the time was right for him to step back into the hub but face facts, Gerrard is often hamstrung playing in a central pairing. Yesterday the shackles were off, he was running at players, playing one-twos, bursting forward, getting in shots, winning 2nd balls and still he marked, tracked and tackled. There is no better sight in football than Steven Gerrard in full flight, doing what he does best in the FINAL THIRD of the pitch. PLEASE stick with this formation Rafa!!!
Next up, our strikers. I quite like Voronin and Kuyt, they're tireless workers, they do a lot of good work outside the box, both work the channels and they can be clever on the ball (more so Voronin) BUT they should not play together as a front two. By far our weakest combination, no focal point to our attack with these two together. A lot of posters feel we have outgrown Peter Crouch, our tactics have changed, we've got Torres now, Crouch is not at our level etc BUT surely it's time to give the lad a run now that Torres is missing in action? A couple of season back Crouch was very effective, i see no reason why he can't be again. Stick with that formation, play Crouch as the focal point, either of Kuyt, Voronin or Babel can play wide in support, have Masch and Lucas play deep and allow Gerrard to join up with the attack through the middle. Gerrard and Crouch have an excellent understanding, it was evident two seasons back and you could see it again at the death yesterday when Stevie ran onto a Crouch chest-down and nearly stole it at the end. Gerrard is at his best laying a ball into feet and running onto or beyond to receive the return ball at pace. We'll never see that happen with Kuyt/Voronin playing together up top and we're unlikely to see it with Gerrard playing in a central two either.
PLEASE STICK WITH THAT FORMATION RAFA!!! IT'S THE WAY FORWARD!!!
Good post, mate. I liked the look of that set up too, especially with respect to Gerrard. I wouldn't necessarily opt for Voronin and Kuyt (especially not both) in the wide areas, though. I'd prefer to see Babel and--if possible--Harry Kewell (if not Benayoun).
I also wonder how well Lucas would suit the Alonso role but we might as well find out--we'll be without Xabi for sometime now.
Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:48 amby Scottbot
Bad Bob wrote:Good post, mate. I liked the look of that set up too, especially with respect to Gerrard. I wouldn't necessarily opt for Voronin and Kuyt (especially not both) in the wide areas, though. I'd prefer to see Babel and--if possible--Harry Kewell (if not Benayoun).
I also wonder how well Lucas would suit the Alonso role but we might as well find out--we'll be without Xabi for sometime now.
Voronin and Kuyt wouldn't be my ideal pairing either to be honest (i'd swap one of them out for Babel or Yossi) but they do both have terrific engines and high work-rate which is very important for a couple of reasons. Firstly, in order for the formation to work you need the wide-men to get up and down, one moment they are tucking in to help the team defend, the next they need to get high and wide or up to support the front-man. Secondly, they will press defenders for 90 minutes and Rafa's teams always play their best when they press the ball all over the pitch. Unfortunatley we don't have the personel to play a 4-3-3 in the way of Chelsea a couple of seasons back. Ours would be a far more dogged, workman-like approach that would enable us to press the ball, defend in numbers when it's needed and get the best out of Gerrard.
As for Lucas coming in for Alonso, like for like in many ways. He looks like a very tidy player so far, no thrills, no nonsense without the risk factor of Sissoko. He looks ready to me.
Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:51 amby bigmick
I mentioned on another thread that we would be by no means the first team to stumble upon a formula rather than discover it as a result of any great genius. I actually thought parts of the formation worked really well, and parts of it didn't. THE most pleasing element for me was the way in which Alonso and masherano played together, for the first time I can remember actually looking like they might be a partnership. Gerrard is clearly returning to somewhere near his imperious best, whether that was due to the formation or is just one of those things, I don't know and don't mind either way really.
Kuyt and Voronin are at the moment some way from being good enough for me. Voronin I suspect never was and never will be, while Kuyt needs a total reassesment of what he is trying to do. One thing is sure though, neither can play as anything other than the focal point in a 3-5-2, 4-3-3 or anything else, and unfortunately neither is good enough for the role.
Crouch fortunately just about is though, particularly if you have players running off him with pace and cutting edge. Gerrard, Babel and Benayoun playing in front of a duo of say Lucas and Masherano would work, while at a push you could play Sissoko in the Masherano roll or Kewell in the Benayoun one and it would still be effective.
The funny thing (in a peculiar way) is that Rafa is seriously running out of rotational options and is probably going to have to pick a team and broadly stick with it. He is also probably going to have to give Crouch a run in the team which will no doubt stick in his craw a bit, but they are going to have to bury the hatchet between them for the good of the club. It will certainly be interesting to see how Babel and Lucas fair over the next few weeks. They would appear to be certain to get increased time on the pitch, and you never know we might just find out that one or both of them is quite good when push comes to shove. Needless to say but I'll say it anyway, I'd play our very striongest team against Cardiff (that is to say the one which we think we will play at Blackburn) and then I'd keep it the same for a few weeks. Lets face it, we've tried everything else.
Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:01 amby Kharhaz
Should this topic be moved to a thread regarding the Arsenal match considering this is what his views are based on?
Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:30 amby hello_red
Its more a thread about formation and us potentialy stumbling on one that would suit us!
Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:19 pmby VamosRafa
I like the look of 4-5-1 with Gerrard playing as the most advanced central midfielder and Torres or Crouch up top, but Voronin and Kuyt? U must be kidding me. You can't fault their work rate but how can you have not 1 but 2 players who are incapable of holding on to the ball, out of their natural position, on the pitch at the same time. I can't really think of anything they could offer from that position, it would be worth a try with Babel/Kewell/Benayoun
Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:58 pmby burjennio
Could definately work with the right personnel in the 2 wide forward positions, babel and kewell??? or Yossi would make it about 10 times more attack minded , its a shame Pennant picked up the injury, i think he could have flurished and, gulp, maybe even scored
Posted:
Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:15 pmby Leonmc0708
burjennio wrote:its a shame Pennant picked up the injury, i think he could have flurished and, gulp, maybe even scored
Dont take the pi.ss !!