Liverpool FC Forum

by **The Manhattan Project** » Sat May 03, 2008 6:59 pm

If he's called Gareth Barry, does that mean that when he joins LFC his nickname will be Gazza Bazza?

by **Scottbot** » Sat May 03, 2008 7:44 pm

Class act for me. Should have bought the lad last summer or the year before that and then we'd be talking 5-6 million instead of these figures. There's no doubt he's a centre-mid now and that's where he would want and expect to play if he becomes a Redman. Particularly now he has established himself as an international. As for Left-Back, he'd be a considerable upgrade on Riise and Aurelio in that position for me but it's academic because he will only play there occasionally i'd imagine. If we buy him it's fair to say it would be as a straight swap in for Alonso. A couple of years ago I would have called him a 'poor-mans Alonso' (and would have agreed entirely with Lando) but Xabi's game has dropped somewhat while Barry has lifted his game. Tbh they are very similar players, both are good passers (although Alonso probably has better vision), Barry is a little faster, maybe a touch more mobile and plays higher up the pitch (although not necessarily if he came to LFC). It's a tough one to call.

I'd say Xabi at his best is the better player BUT I also wonder if Alonso can reclaim the form he showed the first 18 months at the club? If he can't (and who can tell) then it isn't a bad move in my eyes.

by **redtrader74** » Sat May 03, 2008 7:51 pm

Well we need a left-sided midfielder with real quality, and in that respect he fits the bill, the fact that he can play in different positions is also an advantage ( he can only do this because he is a quality footballer). That said we should not pay over the odds, its clear that he wants CL football, and wants to play at a bigger club, we are probably his only English option, so we should put the offer in ( a straight swap for Crouch and Carson is more than enough for a 27 year old IMO) and not budge, leave the ball in Barry's and Villas court to sort out between them. He'll be hell bent on wanting to come, and Villa will eventually have to succumb.

by **Fo Dne** » Sat May 03, 2008 11:15 pm

The_Rock wrote:Looks like barry would become our 1st signing...

10 million pounds ? More like carson + 2 or 3 million pounds for barry...

If rafa pulls this off....then it would be an awesome move. Just hope rafa doesn't intend barry to play as a left back or worse a left winger...... We need pacy players there.

Idiotic mindless post. He should clearly be brought in to play on the left. He's a class act.

Why bring him in to play centre mid when we have Alonso, Gerrard, Lucas and Mascherano who can already play there?

We don't need another :censored:

central

midfieder.

I'm sick of us signing players who play there when its the only position in the squad that has an abundance of quality.

:no

by **Fo Dne** » Sat May 03, 2008 11:18 pm

That would leave us with an excellent midfield...

Barry, Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard

Yes please...

What a midfield that would be, solid defensively and full of players who can use the ball and keep it when attacking. I'd have Barry all day.

by **bigmick** » Sat May 03, 2008 11:43 pm

Fo Dne wrote:That would leave us with an excellent midfield...

Barry, Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard

Yes please...

What a midfield that would be, solid defensively and full of players who can use the ball and keep it when attacking. I'd have Barry all day.

It would be a good midfield Stu, but there are a couple of inherent problems with it in terms of balance in my opinion which could trip us up.

For starters you've got to make the assumption that Gerrard is going to buy into the playing on the right routine again. Now I know some will say "nobodies bigger than the club, he plays where he's fecking told etc etc etc" but there is more to it than that. When he's playing out there and involved in the game constantly, I'm sure he's pretty happy. I've often said I actually think it's his most effective position as it's much harder to do a "Makeleli" on him when he starts on the right side of midfield. The problem is though that if teams can successfully close down Alonso, and then screen in front of Gerrard he gets gradually isolated out of it, goes looking for the ball and we lose a bit of shape. If Xabi is firing on all cylinders, moving around the pitch and making it harder for the opposition to box him in then it works for me. If however he is doing what he has done for the last few seasons, sitting in the pocket and getting closed down by the opposition centre forward then it can all fall apart quite quickly.

The other problem, and it kind of relates to the same thing is that currently both Alonso and Masherano are holding midfielders. Neither of them would expect to score more than five goals in a season, and currently neither of them gets over the half way line with any great regularity either. Now even if we were to sign a Samuel Eto or whoever to partner Torres, I think we are going to need a central midfielder who contributes to attacking play at some point. It doesn't have to be both of them, but one of them I reckon has to occasionally get involved if we are going to regularly roll teams over. I don't think FWIW that despite his many talents, Masherano is capable of fulfilling such a role. He is though the best holding midfielder in the Premiership bar none in my opinion, so we'll forgive him. Alonso on the other hand is more than capable in my opinion, it's just a question of whether we are willing to ask him to perform the role. If he isn't actually able or willing though, then we are going to need to think of a different plan in my view.

If not, you'll arrive at a similar situation as we've had against Chelsea, Arsenal and Manchester United at various stages of the matches this season. That is to say, four defenders plus Alonso and Masherano staying back to mark for instance Drogba, and then expecting the other four players (one of which is Kuyt) to go and rip their defence to shreds. Then we wonder why Gerrard has a quiet game, or Torres even. Needless to say when Chelsea attack, Lampard and Ballack both momb on, so does Ashley Cole and so does Essien and then lo and behold, you have attacking threat.

I do really think that if we are intending to keep Xabi Alonso as a regular starter for next season, then the role we have in mind for him is going to be an absolutely key ingredient to our success or failure. Can you make it work in England with TWO holding midfielders? I don't think you probably can to be honest.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun May 04, 2008 12:07 am

Mick, Alonso can't be a box to box midfielder because he doesn't have the pace, plus those who say "Alonso needs time to be effective" he isn't going to get acres of space 20 yards from goal is he? So expecting him to be getting the goals is going to end in disappointment.

I think Mascherano on the other hand, has the energy to get across the pitch. Box to box midfielder, and if during the summer he can work on his shooting and passing, he could easily fulfill the role in my opinion. Mascerano is like Essien in he has the energy to get forward and back and still break teams up. I think the safer bet would be on Mascherano than Alonso to be the box to box midfielder we lack when Gerrard isn't played there.

by **Number 9** » Sun May 04, 2008 12:22 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Mick, Alonso can't be a box to box midfielder because he doesn't have the pace, plus those who say "Alonso needs time to be effective" he isn't going to get acres of space 20 yards from goal is he? So expecting him to be getting the goals is going to end in disappointment.

I think Mascherano on the other hand, has the energy to get across the pitch. Box to box midfielder, and if during the summer he can work on his shooting and passing, he could easily fulfill the role in my opinion. Mascerano is like Essien in he has the energy to get forward and back and still break teams up. I think the safer bet would be on Mascherano than Alonso to be the box to box midfielder we lack when Gerrard isn't played there.

Bullsh.it John mate!
You seriously think Mascherano can be trained over the summer to become a box to box midfielder?An attacking midfielder??
Never in a million light years mate.
That player was born to play the role he plays now,breaking play up,holding the ball and playing the simple pass.He does it all as well as anyone i have seen apart from Claude Makelele and maybe Didier Deschamps in his prime!But Masch is still young and in my opinion in time can surpass both.

But to suggest that Rafa can train him over the summer to be something he is not,is laughable even by your standards!
To make myself clear,there is more chance of training a greyhound to become racehorse or the Pope declaring Jihad on Britain!

FFS think about it lad?
For someone that claims to have spent so much time on the Kop you amaze me at times.One can only imagine that you have a bird fetish and spent your hours on the Kop watching the pigeons above have pigeon se.x!
One things for sure,you sure as :censored:

were not watching the football,coming off with stuff like that! :no

by **LFC2007** » Sun May 04, 2008 12:27 am

The point about having two holding mid's effectively being boxed in and not forming a strong enough link with our attack is, and has been a problem for us for a while. Rarely will one or the other venture forward. That's what Chelsea have, and it showed when they played us. It's possible, IMO, to get away with this, if you have two outstanding wingers, and equally very astute full backs - pretty much like the Manc's, but even still - Carrick/Hargreaves and Anderson get forward more than Alonso/Mascherano. I feel we lack a bit of mobility going forward in midfield in comparison with our competitors. Lucas could solve a part of this problem next season if he improves himself physically, and gains a bit of confidence.

If we intend to sign Barry as a CM, that would probably leave Alonso's future in the balance. Whilst Barry may provide a touch more going forward, if Xabi can regain a bit of form, he's the better player by quite a bit IMO. Again, if he's intended to play in this position, we'd be neglecting key areas i.e. the wings, full backs, and up front. We can't afford to miss out on the opportunity to get the right players in for these positions this summer. Spending £10m or whatever would give us too much to do in these other, more important areas in my view.

I actually feel Rafa would intend to play him primarily as a LM, I think that's the most likely scenario, although I don't see him as LM myself. I feel we need someone with quicker feet, and a bit more pace. He'd be an improvement as a LB, but he's not played there for a while, so our apparent interest in him probably wouldn't indicate our intent to play him in that position.

My hope is that we can get the top-class LW we need, and the second forward, and put Gerrard back in the middle with Mascherano or Alonso or Lucas. In the main, that's the route I'd go down - permitting for tactical changes now and then, and depending on form/injuries etc.

*FWIW, I don't think Mick is expecting, or indeed desiring Alonso to transform into a box-to-box midfielder. I think he just wants him to play in a slightly more advanced role, to help support our attacks.

[/IMO]

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun May 04, 2008 12:27 am

I didn't claim him to become an attacking midfielder did I? No. Just a box to box midfielder. He has the energy to get up and down the pitch, which Alonso hasn't.

Graeme Souness broke up play but still managed to get to the opponents box. Steve McMahon the same. I'm not expecting Mascherano to chip in with 20 goals a season like Gerrard, but he is the better option between himself and Alonso to be box to box. He can break the play up which he does brilliantly like you said, he can then play the simple pass to Alonso and make his way forward. There's no point him giving it to Alonso and then standing still waiting for the oppositions next attack. Play the ball and push forward, with his energy, enthusiasm and timing of how to tackle, he could easily do it.

by **Thingy** » Sun May 04, 2008 12:36 am

As I think Saint said, if he's our NUMBER 1 transfer target, we arent setting our sights high are we? He should be imo in the middle if you like, not our main target, but not our worst buy either. Could work out to be a wonder buy though. Or it could be a case of square pegs in round holes. A centre midfielder playing as a left winger. Whats the bet?

by **Number 9** » Sun May 04, 2008 12:50 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I didn't claim him to become an attacking midfielder did I? No. Just a box to box midfielder. He has the energy to get up and down the pitch, which Alonso hasn't.

Graeme Souness broke up play but still managed to get to the opponents box. Steve McMahon the same. I'm not expecting Mascherano to chip in with 20 goals a season like Gerrard, but he is the better option between himself and Alonso to be box to box. He can break the play up which he does brilliantly like you said, he can then play the simple pass to Alonso and make his way forward. There's no point him giving it to Alonso and then standing still waiting for the oppositions next attack. Play the ball and push forward, with his energy, enthusiasm and timing of how to tackle, he could easily do it.

In one of your last posts as seen above you were recommending him training on his shooting over the summer!

If you take a player like Masch out of his territory(ie the middle of the park) you take away his strengths.
Whilst Masch is getting forward as you think he should,who will be our Monster in the midfield?

Or do we pressume that he can get back quick enough to counter the counter attack that will inevitably happen should our counter attacking counter attacker be out of position?I know he is South American but even speedy gonzalez could'nt do that John!

So while you reckon he should get forward more,this will leave Alonso more isolated in midfield with speedy out of the question.
We all know that Alonso is not the quickest hence will not be able to deal with the counter attack alone.
therefore the result of your idea of Mascherano getting up and being more box to box is a very very bad idea!

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun May 04, 2008 1:17 am

I think this is being taken out of proportion baz (are you a journalist :laugh:

) I'm not saying make Mascherano into a Steven Gerrard, I'm saying Mascherano is better equipped to doing the box to box work more than Alonso. Whereas if next year it's Barry and Mascherano, then Barry is the better equipped because he won't need as much work on his attacking ability.

I do think however Mascherano could do some work over the summer on his shooting for when he does make those surging runs that he does occasionly. Also when we're at home to sides like Fulham/Reading/Bolton who aren't going to be attacking us as much, is it necessary to have two holding midfielders who offer us pretty much nothing going forward. If you can get a Mascherano who can be useful going forward as well as keeping his natural ability which is obviously to break up the play all the better for those sides who are more likely to sit deep and invite us onto them.

So again I'm not expecting Mascherano to chip in with 20 goals a season, but with a bit of work and a bit more confidence or freedom to go forward, he'd be a better player all round for us.

by **bigmick** » Sun May 04, 2008 2:02 am

John (and LFC was spot on here) I'm not advocating Alonso becoming "box to box' by any defination which the phrase has ever been used. I am simply saying that if he were to break the shackles which keep him within ten yards of our centre halves, to support the attack and get within shooting distance of their goal, to back himself to be able to recover should we lose posession, he's be a much more effective player for us. He'd also make it much harder for the opposition to set up to counteract him. As it is, an opposing manager could on a blackboard guess within a circle of radius twenty yards or so where Alonso will be nearly all the time. Because of this it's very easy to detail his most offensive midfielder and his centre forward into Alonso pressing duties.

Now this predictability is fine if your Makeleli or even Masherano, as those blokes never pass the ball more than twenty yards anyhow it's not their game. Unfortunately though, incisive visionary passing is what Xabi brings to the team which is his greatest asset. Allow the opposition to take that away from him and he becomes just another midfielder, good at reading the game, lacking in pace and not bad in the air.

Now I'm not disputing for a second that Masherano is better equipped physically to cover more ground getting forward and then back again, but he doesn't have Alonso's quality on the ball, subtlety of pass, shot or vision. If it's simply a question of ruinning around a lot and forget about the quality, you might as well play Kuyt central midfield.

The point is that if Xabi gets up and back a bit more readily, he becomes much more of an influence on the game and much more difficult to play against. Also, it means we aren't playing with two holding midfielders. Great player though he is, I don't think in all honesty Masherano has the ability to play other than as 100% a holder.

by **Sabre** » Sun May 04, 2008 2:10 am

Congratulations to the posters of this thread, healthy and informative posts by several members.

I PMed bigmick before this discussion and he already informed me a bit about this Barry guy (tnx mate). I've completed the picture with the rest of the posts.

Two holding mids might sound conservative and defensive per se, but it doesn't have to be that way. In the moment when we've meen more solid and point winning, the moment in which Rafa "saw" the light, we were actually employing this system.

But it's not ONLY up to the two holding mids to reach upfront, wide men also have to say something about it, and also the man on front of this midfielders, the one that gives numerical superiority in the middle against a classical 442. Of course it can work in England too. In fact, I have seen Arsenal and Chelsea playing similar one striker formations in some games against us.

Options and possibilities were necessary at some point. This season Rafa has said that he already has a deep squad. So now, it's not time for options, it's time to buy the correct player for the correct position. I do not want Barry tests LB, LM, and DCM in December, as Bigmick fears, I need a player that comes to occupy a position.

Those positions would be, RW, where a striker and Gerrard has been occupying that position because Pennant hasn't done a progression this season.

LW, because Kewell is eternally injured and Babel has quality, but very poor decissions and much to learn.

RB, because Carra and Arbeloa has been occuping that position as "options". There's not an owner of that position.

If Barry comes for a specific position, fair enough, but I hope it's not CM, because we have plenty of quality there already.

The notion of swapping Alonso for Barry doesn't convince me because at the end of the day it's a gamble, and not exactly a cheap one, where as you have other positions unsorted.

As for a quality second striker S@int wishes, I also want one. But the fúcking problem is that the quality ones cannot be bought like apples and pears, they're ridiculously expensive. A Real Madrid :censored:

has approached us as he overheard our footie conversation and told us it's official they've offered 20M quid + Granero + De la Red (promising and good players).

If we want quality for second strikers, we need to outbid that kind of offer. Can we? It looks that with Hicks we can't without getting in debt, so I'd rather use Barry's 10M and selling a player like Pennant in achieving a good second striker, RW, or LW.

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