Liverpool FC Forum

by **puroresu** » Tue May 06, 2008 12:41 pm

Bad Bob wrote:I don't often agree with Lawro, the pundit, but I think his point is sound HERE
(except maybe the speculation about Alonso's motivations )
--------------------
Gareth Barry is fine but Rafa Benitez needs match-winners

May 6 2008

by Mark Lawrenson, Liverpool Daily Post

IT’S not that Gareth Barry isn’t a good player and wouldn’t be a decent addition to Liverpool’s squad.

But he’s not the sort of player Liverpool urgently need to address the shortcomings that have added up to a disappointing season.

The most significant aspect of the pursuit of Barry is that it would appear to signal the end of Xabi Alonso.

I can’t really see any other reason for buying the Aston Villa captain, because would Barry necessarily have more impact than Alonso? I think that would just be like for like.

Alonso has fallen prey to the circumstances that often affect foreign players, especially ones who have a great first season and become such a big player for their team, as he undoubtedly did.

He isn’t the central focus any more and with his partner having a baby this season, a move back home to Spain seems more attractive to him all the time.

With Javier Mascherano in the midfield now, Alonso seems to have a lot of his work done for him and I wouldn’t be surprised if he felt a bit sidelined now. Maybe a little bit surplus after initially being the creative hub of the side.

Combine that with his personal circumstances and I think it’s an easy way out for him now – and I’m sure Barry would find it easy to slot into that role.

He also has the added advantage of being able to drift to the left and provide an extra outlet there if necessary.

Which is all very well – but what Rafael Benitez really needs more of is match-winners. And as valuable an addition as Barry could be, I don’t see him as one of those.

As well as new signings, Benitez needs the likes of Ryan Babel to come through for him, because at the moment it’s only Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard you can rely on to produce the moments that change the big games.

I feel that’s what ultimately cost them against Chelsea in the Champions League semi-final last week.

As I feared, Gerrard couldn’t get free from Claude Makelele and that’s a big problem when there aren’t players who can make a similar impact.

Chelsea are one of those teams who are so good in defence they don’t give you anything, you have to work extremely hard to get anywhere against them. You need that extra but of class and invention and it was all too rare when it mattered.

It all reflected the problems Benitez seems to face every year now. He has a good side easily good enough for the top four, but stripped to the bare bones they are a bit short of what it takes to compete consistently at Chelsea and Manchester United’s level.

And against those teams you get caught out if the squad isn’t good enough. This is something Benitez already knows, but I just think it emphasises the gulf that exists between teams at all levels of English football now. You’ve got your bottom eight, next eight then the top four – and even within that there’s still a long way to go to get from four to one.

That’s why you’ve got to have more than a couple of match-winners. If he had as many as Manchester United, for example, it wouldn’t matter if he left players out early on in the season to keep them fresh for the run-in.

That wouldn’t affect results and it would keep Liverpool in contention for the title when his top players would be sufficiently rested to keep up the challenge.

But at the moment rotating the squad in the early stages of the season doesn’t work. The quantity is fine but the quality is a different issue. At the moment Gareth Barry isn’t the answer to that – so it’s up to Benitez’s bosses to help him find plenty more this summer.

I agree with this. Barry will not offer much more to what we already have. The centre of the park is not an area we have issues. Even if Barry was picked at LB or LW for me his not quick enough or the solution to those positions.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue May 06, 2008 12:47 pm

Owzat wrote:
s@int wrote:Only reason I can think of is we are going for an experienced short term (1 season) keeper who will be quite happy sitting on the bench all season, while our young keepers are loaned out to gain experience.

We shouldn't be needing to use the keeper sub very often so there's something to be said for giving a young keeper the bench spot. The only time it becomes a problem is if Reina gets injured, and *touch wood* he's been pretty fortunate with regards injury.

I'd be tempted to keep Carson, give him some games a season in Carling Cup, FA Cup, some Champions League group games/qualifiers and the odd Premiership game or two. He may even impress enough to make a bid for number one, he should get 10-20 games a season. And who says if we're winning 3-0 early on that you can't take the keeper off? It may not rest outfield players, but why not if it keeps the keeper happy?

I don't favour signing 30+ year old keepers, great in terms of experience but hardly long term solutions. Didn't we sign Paul Jones, ex-Southtampon keeper for a while? They're better off in the lower divisions, doing a sturdy job for a club with ambitions but maybe not the resources to match eg a Stoke or Bristols City. We had Hooper here for years and other back-up keepers, I guess we'll never keep two top keepers happy forever but surely doing so for a season or two with someone like Carson is better than signing 35 year olds for a season. And fitness isn't entirely a non-issue with keepers, the older they are the more they lose their agility, reflexes etc. Same goes for us all !

The problem with putting an inexperienced keeper on the bench is twofold :- 1/ They don't get experience sat on a bench and 2/ When/if they are needed because we are a high profile club with few "unimportant" games any mistakes they make can have a serious effect on their confidence and our season.

I am quite happy to have an experienced old goalkeeper on the bench as this enables our younger goalkeepers to be loaned out to gain experience, make their mistakes at other clubs and come back either as serious challengers for the number 1 spot or moved on at a profit.

Maybe it does allow an element of complacancy to develop in our first choice keeper - as he has no real competition, but would any of our goalkeepers (with the exception of Carson ) offer any real competition anyway?

by **account deleted by request** » Tue May 06, 2008 1:03 pm

Bad Bob wrote:I don't often agree with Lawro, the pundit, but I think his point is sound HERE
(except maybe the speculation about Alonso's motivations )
--------------------
Gareth Barry is fine but Rafa Benitez needs match-winners

May 6 2008

by Mark Lawrenson, Liverpool Daily Post

IT’S not that Gareth Barry isn’t a good player and wouldn’t be a decent addition to Liverpool’s squad.

But he’s not the sort of player Liverpool urgently need to address the shortcomings that have added up to a disappointing season.

The most significant aspect of the pursuit of Barry is that it would appear to signal the end of Xabi Alonso.

I can’t really see any other reason for buying the Aston Villa captain, because would Barry necessarily have more impact than Alonso? I think that would just be like for like.

Alonso has fallen prey to the circumstances that often affect foreign players, especially ones who have a great first season and become such a big player for their team, as he undoubtedly did.

He isn’t the central focus any more and with his partner having a baby this season, a move back home to Spain seems more attractive to him all the time.

With Javier Mascherano in the midfield now, Alonso seems to have a lot of his work done for him and I wouldn’t be surprised if he felt a bit sidelined now. Maybe a little bit surplus after initially being the creative hub of the side.

Combine that with his personal circumstances and I think it’s an easy way out for him now – and I’m sure Barry would find it easy to slot into that role.

He also has the added advantage of being able to drift to the left and provide an extra outlet there if necessary.

Which is all very well – but what Rafael Benitez really needs more of is match-winners. And as valuable an addition as Barry could be, I don’t see him as one of those.

As well as new signings, Benitez needs the likes of Ryan Babel to come through for him, because at the moment it’s only Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard you can rely on to produce the moments that change the big games.

I feel that’s what ultimately cost them against Chelsea in the Champions League semi-final last week.

As I feared, Gerrard couldn’t get free from Claude Makelele and that’s a big problem when there aren’t players who can make a similar impact.

Chelsea are one of those teams who are so good in defence they don’t give you anything, you have to work extremely hard to get anywhere against them. You need that extra but of class and invention and it was all too rare when it mattered.

It all reflected the problems Benitez seems to face every year now. He has a good side easily good enough for the top four, but stripped to the bare bones they are a bit short of what it takes to compete consistently at Chelsea and Manchester United’s level.

And against those teams you get caught out if the squad isn’t good enough. This is something Benitez already knows, but I just think it emphasises the gulf that exists between teams at all levels of English football now. You’ve got your bottom eight, next eight then the top four – and even within that there’s still a long way to go to get from four to one.

That’s why you’ve got to have more than a couple of match-winners. If he had as many as Manchester United, for example, it wouldn’t matter if he left players out early on in the season to keep them fresh for the run-in.

That wouldn’t affect results and it would keep Liverpool in contention for the title when his top players would be sufficiently rested to keep up the challenge.

But at the moment rotating the squad in the early stages of the season doesn’t work. The quantity is fine but the quality is a different issue. At the moment Gareth Barry isn’t the answer to that – so it’s up to Benitez’s bosses to help him find plenty more this summer.

I think we all agree that we need more matchwinners (we have been saying it all fkn season

)

I still think Barry is a good signing, who will maybe want the League title more than Alonso does.

I just wonder how many of the people that don't think Barry is such a good player have actually seen him play other than against Liverpool ? This is not a get at the foreigners post, just a genuine interest, because when I have seen him play he has always impressed me.

He is not the quickest (but faster than Alonso) not the most ferocious tackler (but much more than Alonso) not the most prolific goalscorer (but much more than Alonso), not the most mobile (but much more than Alonso) not the best in the air (but maybe better than Alonso)

Alonso can pass better than Barry, but he hasn't been breaking any pots with that the last couple of seasons. Barry links well, passes well and GETS FORWARD much more than Alonso ever has.

In European games against continental opposition I would pick Alonso EVERY TIME. In the league against prem oppo I would probably go with Barry, unless Alonso suddenly finds the form and desire that made him such a hit in his first couple of seasons.

I forgot to mention - he is also Left footed which would help to add balance to our midfield, and added versatility to the squad.

by **stmichael** » Tue May 06, 2008 1:43 pm

I still think he'd be a good signing and enable us to keep the ball better.

I'd make the comparison when United signed Carrick for precisely that reason. He's the perfect example of a player who came in and helped a side keep the ball better and, as a result, saw the attacking players thrive.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue May 06, 2008 1:44 pm

s@int wrote:I think we all agree that we need more matchwinners (we have been saying it all fkn season )

I still think Barry is a good signing, who will maybe want the League title more than Alonso does.

I just wonder how many of the people that don't think Barry is such a good player have actually seen him play other than against Liverpool ? This is not a get at the foreigners post, just a genuine interest, because when I have seen him play he has always impressed me.

He is not the quickest (but faster than Alonso) not the most ferocious tackler (but much more than Alonso) not the most prolific goalscorer (but much more than Alonso), not the most mobile (but much more than Alonso) not the best in the air (but maybe better than Alonso)

Alonso can pass better than Barry, but he hasn't been breaking any pots with that the last couple of seasons. Barry links well, passes well and GETS FORWARD much more than Alonso ever has.

In European games against continental opposition I would pick Alonso EVERY TIME. In the league against prem oppo I would probably go with Barry, unless Alonso suddenly finds the form and desire that made him such a hit in his first couple of seasons.

I forgot to mention - he is also Left footed which would help to add balance to our midfield, and added versatility to the squad.

Well, I've seen him a few times outside matches against us and, yes, I think he's a quality player. I don't think he's as far ahead of Alonso as you're implying but that's kind of beside the point anyway. The bottom line for me is that, unless the owners (current or new) are really prepared to throw open the chequebook this summer, I don't see us having tons of cash to splash. Given that, why spend 10 to 12 million pounds on someone who will, at best, slightly improve our depth in our strongest area of the squad? It's just a daft way to spend money, IMO. The only way it can be justified is if he is going to be played at LM consistently (replacing Kewell and Babel) or if Alonso is definitely, 100% going and Rafa has Barry lined up as his replacement. If Alonso wants to stay but Barry's here to compete with him for a CM berth, it's a complete waste of (likely) limited funds, IMO.

by **JC_81** » Tue May 06, 2008 1:46 pm

I think Barry will be a good signing, I would be very surprised now if he didn't sign. I have thought for some time now that Alonso's days are numbered here and if Benitez is going to play with two holding midfielders then I think Barry would offer more than Alonso has for the past two seasons. Gerrard likes playing with Barry and if you have read Gerrard's book he talks about how highly he rates Barry, dating back to when they both broke into the England squad around the same time as youngsters.

If Barry signs, we will have addressed a major deficiency in our team - quality of set pieces. The guy's delivery from free-kicks and corners are excellent. My only hope is that Benitez sees him as a central midfielder and not as a left back or left midfielder, because he has played some of his best football this season in midfield.

As for signing Maik Taylor, why not? This Itandje has looked a liability any time I've seen him, I'd much rather have a half-decent 36 year old with bags of PL experience than him. Get rid of Itandje, I don't know what Benitez was thinking signing him.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue May 06, 2008 1:56 pm

Try looking at it another way Bob. At the moment we have Riise as our versatile Left footed, left sided player. We sell him for £4/5 million so we are getting a player that can do everything Riise does (only better) for around £5million or so. He can also do a great job in Central midfield so if Alonso does indeed wish to go home we are covered, while the added benefit is while Masch and Lucas(?) are off playing in the OLYMPICS we have adequate cover.

My point about wanting the League more than Alonso is I still believe that our foreign players arn't as committed to winning the league as our British players are. I think offer them the chance of CL success or league title and they would pick the CL EVERY TIME. Especially our Spanish players who also come from a Big league. If Gerrard went to another country do you honestly believe he would get the same satisfaction from winning it as he would winning the prem?

by **Bad Bob** » Tue May 06, 2008 2:04 pm

s@int wrote:Try looking at it another way Bob. At the moment we have Riise as our versatile Left footed, left sided player. We sell him for £4/5 million so we are getting a player that can do everything Riise does (only better) for around £5million or so. He can also do a great job in Central midfield so if Alonso does indeed wish to go home we are covered, while the added benefit is while Masch and Lucas(?) are off playing in the OLYMPICS we have adequate cover.

Fair enough, mate. If we can get Barry in without compromising the signing of some quality attacking options then I won't be opposed. If, however, he's our big summer signing and his job is to replace Alonso, I think we'll have stood still whilst our competitors no doubt strengthen. We'll see how it all shakes out, I suppose, because it truly sounds like he's on his way.

My point about wanting the League more than Alonso is I still believe that our foreign players arn't as committed to winning the league as our British players are. I think offer them the chance of CL success or league title and they would pick the CL EVERY TIME. Especially our Spanish players who also come from a Big league. If Gerrard went to another country do you honestly believe he would get the same satisfaction from winning it as he would winning the prem?

You know, I just don't go in for this kind of stuff at all. I hate the body language discussions too because, at the end of the day, it's all about presuming what's going on in a player's head based on very little actual evidence. Fair enough if Alonso's said that the league plays second fiddle in his priority list but I don't think we can assume anything just because he's a foreigner. (But, if we are going to play that game, I ask you: how motivated does Pennant look half the time?

)

by **account deleted by request** » Tue May 06, 2008 2:13 pm

I don't think its a conscious thing of Alonso etc saying its only a league game against Wigan why bother? I just think they are more up for it against a big name European team than for just another prem fixture.

As I said its not every foreign player - Kuyt for example seems up for any game and would probably play just as hard in a park kickabout. (hopefully scoring a few more

)

As for Pennant I will put him down as the exception that proves the rule

by **lakes10** » Tue May 06, 2008 2:26 pm

Radio five live have been saying that it is John Arne Riise going if we get Barry?

I know he has had a bad year but i still think he has a lot more to give....or we could sell him on his own, i am sure we would get a good price.

by **skatesy** » Tue May 06, 2008 2:46 pm

It seems that if Liverpool get Barry that they will not really have to spend much money on him. It seems that the majority of the cost of the transfer will be covered by a player that Liverpool sends to Villa which is good and keep a lot of money available for some more new players.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue May 06, 2008 3:58 pm

s@int wrote:Kuyt for example seems up for any game and would probably play just as hard in a park kickabout. (hopefully scoring a few more )

by **Bad Bob** » Tue May 06, 2008 4:01 pm

skatesy wrote:It seems that if Liverpool get Barry that they will not really have to spend much money on him. It seems that the majority of the cost of the transfer will be covered by a player that Liverpool sends to Villa which is good and keep a lot of money available for some more new players.

That's an important point, mate. If we can orchestrate a swap deal + cash for Barry using one of our want-away players, our out-of-pocket expense will be reasonable and presumably we can still then go after a quality attacking player (up top, out wide or even in the fullback positions). I'd definitely feel a lot better about signing Barry under those circumstances.

by **The Manhattan Project** » Tue May 06, 2008 4:30 pm

5M plus Voronin and Riise.

I think that's a fair deal for Barry.

by **King Carra** » Tue May 06, 2008 5:13 pm

john craig wrote:I think Barry will be a good signing, I would be very surprised now if he didn't sign. I have thought for some time now that Alonso's days are numbered here and if Benitez is going to play with two holding midfielders then I think Barry would offer more than Alonso has for the past two seasons. Gerrard likes playing with Barry and if you have read Gerrard's book he talks about how highly he rates Barry, dating back to when they both broke into the England squad around the same time as youngsters.

If Barry signs, we will have addressed a major deficiency in our team - quality of set pieces. The guy's delivery from free-kicks and corners are excellent. My only hope is that Benitez sees him as a central midfielder and not as a left back or left midfielder, because he has played some of his best football this season in midfield.

As for signing Maik Taylor, why not? This Itandje has looked a liability any time I've seen him, I'd much rather have a half-decent 36 year old with bags of PL experience than him. Get rid of Itandje, I don't know what Benitez was thinking signing him.

I agree with this post so much. In terms of head to head I don't think there's much difference between Alonso and Barry, but I think it's quite obvious that Alonso is on his way. Can anybody really say he's been the same player this year? I remember the Arsenal game at home where he played magnificently, but after that game he's faded away this season. I don't think he wants to be at Liverpool anyway, and you can't really blame him as he's got a kid who he obviously wants to bring up in a Spanish culture. With Barry we're getting somewhere who played EXCELLENTLY with Gerrard for England and he's very good at set pieces and is versatile. Now if we get Barry I hope he's employed as a centre midfilder and not on the left wing, or left back as he's thrived this season since he's been in the centre of midfield.

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