Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:23 am

At least we now agree he wasn't up to the job. Now all you need to conceed is that because he wasn't up to the job he played poorly and we are on a roll.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:33 am

You talk about a lack of creativety? Alonso's got more creativety in his poo than Gerrard has and I find it absoloutely staggering anyone can suggest Gerrard's the more "creative" player. Creativety, translated into english means Vision, one of Gerrard's main weakness (although not weak and still at a more than capable level).

Oh FFS not you an all.

Alonso had a poor game end off, he wasnt the worst player out there. But when people came on and actaully said he played well I choked on me RUM. We must of been watching and different game then.

Creativity: Does it soley mean Vision ?

No it doesnt, How you can sit there and say Alonso is more creative than Gerrard is f.ucking laughable mate.
Name me Occasions this season where Alonso has created goals or opportunities for us and I'll bet you Gerrards tally will be higher. The vision your on about is in Alonso's ability to pick a pass at the right time and hit it with perfect wait and prescision. Gerrards creativity starts and ends with him actually making SOMETHING happen with the ball. He'll run with it, inject pace, he'll take on someone with the ball, he does have the vision and ability maybe not as good as ALonso to pick and play a pass. He also scores goals ontop of that, so I'd say Gerrard is much more of a creater and an end producter of attacking football.

If he was such a creater, why doesnt he create himself more goals every season or anyone else for that matter ?

BTW I like Xabi as a player, i just dont make him out to be somthing he's not, like some do.

I've been debating this "Alonso had a poor game " with Bob. He mainly states he's fed up with the lack of praise Alonso recieves. I've praised him for that in the past and I appreciate what he does when he does it well, now your saying Xabi's a better creater than Gerrard a whole different topic of conversation in which I think your wrong.

And you aint worth the headache

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:46 am

BTW creativity means inventive or to make something original , new or different
Good vision means to see things clearly or that others can't

On both counts Xabi was lacking against Chelsea

Didn't know you had a problem ,sorry mate :down:

by **66-1120597113** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:21 am

s@int wrote:BTW creativity means inventive or to make something original , new or different
Good vision means to see things clearly or that others can't

On both counts Xabi was lacking against Chelsea

You should have tried specsavers Stu

He did they give up on 'that eye'! :laugh:

by **The Specialist** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:04 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
The Specialist wrote:Sh.it, poor, way below par, not up to snuff? Is there really much of a difference there? Your argument is a silly one, mate. It's a definite overreaction.

Again, you keep on comparing other players. What for? I don't understand. Is Xabi to be excused? Did anyone excuse Agger for his part in Chelsea's goal? Arbeloa was key there, as he let Joe Cole stroll past him. Was Agger's defending against Drogba not so bad then when you look at the big picture? No, it doesn't matter.

You keep on going on about how he was "solid" and this and that, but why was he subbed then? Why wasn't Mascherano taken off instead? If I watched the game again, I would be in a better position to explain to you in detail what he did wrong. I didn't write things down or make mental notes of every play when I viewed the game. I can't get into real specifics.

Also to be perfectly honest , I have been trying to forget the game completely since viewing it (as it was painful to watch). And I just don't care enough to try and re-live it just to get into an argument with you, so whatever...

If you want to dismiss my opinion, then fine. I don't really care what emoticon you assign to me. You're a middle-aged man assigning emoticons to random people on an internet messageboard. Who's the real " " ?

Just a couple of points in reply and then I swear I'll let it drop...

1) The sub, for me, was a tactical switch--a defensive midfielder came off and an attacking midfielder came on because we were chasing an away goal. I don't think it had anything to do with Alonso having a poor game, I think Rafa just felt that Mascherano would "stay at home" more when Gerrard went forward, is all. People, IMO, are reading too much into this substitution.

2) I really, truly believe that central midfielders are the hardest players to evaluate fairly in terms of performance. How often has Gerrard been described as "quiet" or "below his best" this season just because he didn't score a 30 yard screamer or win a penalty? When CMs do the flash stuff--like Alonso did against Newcastle at Anfield this season--they are rightly praised but when they don't, they are often quite unfairly criticized. They can spend 90 minutes in the trenches, tackling, intercepting passes, tracking runs, shepherding ball carriers towards teammates, making themselves available for the safe pass, moving the ball around, taking kicks, winning headers--all the unsung stuff--and loads of people will still p!ss all over them if they didn't score a goal or set one up. I've seen it many, many times on this board and others, so it's bigger than just Alonso against Chelsea but this time out it's been especially prevalent. "Yer, Alonso's had another poor game" says someone and a chorus of "ayes" soon follows. Personally, I'm sick of it because it's a lazy comment. Why was Alonso (or Gerrard, or Mascherano, or Sissoko) poor? If people are so sure he had a shocker than surely they won't mind taking a minute to explain their reasoning, with evidence from the match. If they won't or can't do that, I just have to assume it's because they don't really understand the full scope of a CM's game and therefore can't appreciate all the little things that get done off the ball to ensure that the shape is maintained or the cleansheet is preserved or the scoring move gets started. For the sake of quality football discussion let's pack the lazy punditry in and really get into these issues. BTW, I'm not have a go at you per se--your comments were just the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were.

3) As for the emoticons, mate, I was just having a bit of fun!

Yeah, Bob, I kind of had a feeling your anger didn't have much to do with my actual comments but rather something that has been building up inside of you for a while.

I don't agree when you say that alot of people don't appreciate the unsung heroes of the game. Hamann was loved, Alonso's performances like the one he had against Juve are loved, people complain about how highly praised Sissoko is, and Mascherano's contribution to the team hasn't gone unnoticed.

Gerrard is a completely different matter, and he can't really be compared to Alonso's. I do get what you are trying to say, though...

But you know what I have to say to everyone defending Alonso in this thread?

Alot of people say Riise had a terrible game, but you know what? I remember him putting in a killer pass to Zenden or two, him clearing the ball in the area and getting his foot in to stop a Chelsea attack at times. The fact of the matter is, very rarely do players do EVERYTHING wrong. You can take positives out of a overall bad performance if you CHOOSE to look hard enough. I think that's what alot of you are doing with Alonso now..

by **The Specialist** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:09 pm

Sabre wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Well sorry, mate, but if you can't be bothered I guess I can't be bothered taking your assessment seriously. I mean, if the stray passes weren't memorable enough to discuss they clearly didn't hurt us that badly. And, let's be fair, our lads were producing stray passes all over the park. Were any of Alonso's seriously worse than the nightmare back pass from Riise or the Mascherano gift to Drogba? Gerrard had several passes cut out by Carvalho and Zenden passed it straight to Makelele on at least two occasions. I'd be willing to bet that Alonso completed a lot more passes as a percentage than most of his teammates.

Alonso tinted glasses !

Scarce live football in many posters, and poor understanding of the game if you ask me. Too much TV and youtube, and resistance to admit one is wrong -- when you reach to argue with questions and you admit you can't get into facts, it's the time to drop it.

Good thread.

I think that patronising comment was aimed at me, not you Bamaga Man...

I will never admit I am wrong, because I don't think I am. As I said, I don't watch games and remember every single play. I only tend to remember the important/match changing ones. It's my overall assesment that Alonso had a poor game.

Again, if anyone wants to dismiss me - they can. It's fair to do so, as I don't want to/can't remember enough to get into a well thought out argument on the matter. To sit and post something like Sabre has is a bit much, though. I mean, Sabre, you act like you were at the game? You get your coverage off TV...

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:15 pm

Well it took awhile but we've finally arrived at a meaningful debate about Alonso's performance (and in a Woodgate thread!

).

Bamaga Man, I wasn't directing my "don't understand the CMs role" comments at you (you either Saint) but at the numerous people in multiple threads who have a go at Alonso without explaining why. I don't pretend to be all-knowing about football but I do pay attention when I watch and I expect that others do to. Yet, on the occasions where I or others have asked people to explain why they thought he was "sh!te" or "shocking" or "p1sh" we get a bunch of feeble statements that give no indication whatsoever that the commentator was even watching the game. It's tedious. It's not about taking detailed notes during the game--it's about identifying a couple of key moments which tipped the balance towards "poor game." People have done it with Zenden, people have done it with Arbeloa and Agger and Riise, but til now, no one's done it with Alonso. Seriously, mate, it's about good debate for me and I think there's a lot of promise in a debate over Alonso's qualities and shortcomings (rather than, say, Zenden's).

So, since you and Saint have obliged me with actual debating points, I'll happily respond in kind. Yes, the whole team were average at best. Yes, during the opening half an hour we were a very nervy outfit that didn't get to grips with the game and that includes Alonso. I don't dispute that. Nor, have I said that Alonso played brilliantly. I gave him the third point in the match standings because I honestly thought he was one of the best of a bad lot but that doesn't mean he was anything more than decent by his own high standards.

Now to the specifics...

1) I obviously remember the Mikel challenge but I can't seriously remember him giving away many other free kicks. Sure, there was the usual niggly stuff that comes from 50/50 balls around the centre circle but you can't really criticize him for that surely? All CMs give away those kinds of free kicks in every game and well they should because its part of the "battling qualities" that they need to have (your right, I did get that in there because its bloody important!). And, since you've opened the door on Mascherano, I'll step through: full credit to him for taking the card with his professional foul to stop the Chelsea break but he put himself in trouble by letting the player get past him. That incident stands out in my mind as strongly as the Alonso challenge on Mikel as the only real rash challenges either player made in the game.

2) Back to the stray passes. As I suggested to the Specialist, this will happen from time to time with Alonso, as he plays a more ambitious long ball than most. The cross-field pass to Arbeloa which ran out of play is the obvious example for that. But, I swear, there was more than one occasion where he picked out a player in space down the flanks: one ball he dropped on Zenden's boots from 30 yards away and he played the pass that Gerrard did well to lose Ashley Cole on down the right. So, I don't think his balls out to the flanks were off and I'll leave his through balls to my next point.

3) Creativity, both you and Saint suggest, was lacking from Xabi's game on Wednesday. Well, I agree with your reply to Stu--Alonso's brand of creativity is much different than Gerrard's. For Alonso, it's about playing players in to good positions. I thought he did that reasonably well with his passes to the flanks (which Zenden, his main target do to Gerrard being infield, did little with) but what about his through balls? Well, he tried a few and they didn't come off. A couple were over-hit and ran out of play (one would have played Gerrard in if it was a little softer), while the best one hit the ref (good spot Saint, although I think Alonso had some reason to expect that Merk could get out of the way). But, it must be said, a player like Alonso can only do so much and 50% of an effective through ball is the run of his teammates. Were people making the runs for him on Wednesday? I don't think so. Bellamy did't, Kuyt and Crouch tried intermittently, Zenden didn't and Gerrard did but often in a congested space just in front of Alonso. All of this, of course, had a lot to do with Chelsea dropping deep after their goal, packing their half and playing on the counter. So, calling Xabi on his lack of creativity is harsh when teammates aren't making runs and the league's best defensive side are plugging on the passing lanes.

I'm sure there are other aspects to this discussion but, I want to reiterate, it's a discussion worth having. Alonso was neither "sh!te" nor "p!sh" nor "shocking" on Wednesday...that I'm not having. Everything else is a matter of debate! :cool:

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:29 pm

3) Creativity, both you and Saint suggest, was lacking from Xabi's game on Wednesday. Well, I agree with your reply to Stu--Alonso's brand of creativity is much different than Gerrard's. For Alonso, it's about playing players in to good positions. I thought he did that reasonably well with his passes to the flanks (which Zenden, his main target do to Gerrard being infield, did little with) but what about his through balls? Well, he tried a few and they didn't come off. A couple were over-hit and ran out of play (one would have played Gerrard in if it was a little softer), while the best one hit the ref (good spot Saint, although I think Alonso had some reason to expect that Merk could get out of the way). But, it must be said, a player like Alonso can only do so much and 50% of an effective through ball is the run of his teammates. Were people making the runs for him on Wednesday? I don't think so. Bellamy did't, Kuyt and Crouch tried intermittently, Zenden didn't and Gerrard did but often in a congested space just in front of Alonso. All of this, of course, had a lot to do with Chelsea dropping deep after their goal, packing their half and playing on the counter. So, calling Xabi on his lack of creativity is harsh when teammates aren't making runs and the league's best defensive side are plugging on the passing lanes

Okay Bob for my part the Alonso Chelsea thing is done we have our opinions, to which we've discussed. I still stand by mine though. Its one game and one player we're talking about and I dont think our views would probably differ that much from the game apart from a few semantics, I say he was poor you say he was average.

I think this next debate will bring Stu in, Xabi apparently has more creativity in his p.oo than Gerrard. He claims to be another know it all, so with that comment he made I'm truly dissapointed as its proved the point he doesnt know it all

hey Stu ?

" For Alonso its about playing players into positions " your quote Bob, and its exactly right. That IMO is what a deep lying playmaker means. It doesnt mean neccessarily to create ' goal scoring oppotunities' or to create goals. Thats what Xabi offers us, but not a lot more on the attacking front. But when considering he is a deep midfielder that also has to do the "unsung" stuff its sufficient for us at times.
But as apparent as it was against Chelsea and for trying to get past one of the meanest defences, its not enough. And as Stu would say, IMO if you play Xabi, and Mascha in the same team throughout the course of the season I honestly doubt it will win you the title. Even against Boro the other week it happened until Gerrard was dropped deeper in the center. For breaking down teams like that Xabi isnt the player, Luis Garcia is or Harry Kewell and Gerrard. They actually create threat to opposing defences, Xabi plays our players into their positions like you said.

I suppose this is a question aimed at Stu more than Bob, but when we're (Liverpool) playing at home to a team like Boro, or away at City and 70 mins have gone and its nil nil. Who are you actually looking at or what one player on the pitch do you think can change that game ?

Everytime its Gerrard for me and I'd best most Liverpool fans would say the same, hell if not him you might be thinking Crouch can nick something Kuyt or Pennant even. But nine out of ten times its Gerrard, and you know why, because he can change a game in an instant as he did against Boro which is a prime example of our midfield lacking creativity. He created the space and let fly from 25 yards, so not only does he create but he often comes out with end product.

Now I cannot honesty say the same thing about Xabi during a game like that, he's probably the last person all barring Reina who I can see creating or even better SCORING a goal. And thats simply because his game isnt about that, its as said before about playing players into positions, spreading the play even starting an attack from defence. Thats what a deep lying midfielder does, and thats what Xabi does. I think though if he's playing the majority of prem games he has done this year we should be expecting a decent goals return from him, even six or seven. IMo to be a title winning side our midfield as a whole have got to create, score and play high tempo attacking football against opponents, as it stands they dont, once that changes we might be in with a shout of winning the league, but like I said that wont come with Mascha and Xabi in the middle.

by **Stu.Murph** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:03 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
3) Creativity, both you and Saint suggest, was lacking from Xabi's game on Wednesday. Well, I agree with your reply to Stu--Alonso's brand of creativity is much different than Gerrard's. For Alonso, it's about playing players in to good positions. I thought he did that reasonably well with his passes to the flanks (which Zenden, his main target do to Gerrard being infield, did little with) but what about his through balls? Well, he tried a few and they didn't come off. A couple were over-hit and ran out of play (one would have played Gerrard in if it was a little softer), while the best one hit the ref (good spot Saint, although I think Alonso had some reason to expect that Merk could get out of the way). But, it must be said, a player like Alonso can only do so much and 50% of an effective through ball is the run of his teammates. Were people making the runs for him on Wednesday? I don't think so. Bellamy did't, Kuyt and Crouch tried intermittently, Zenden didn't and Gerrard did but often in a congested space just in front of Alonso. All of this, of course, had a lot to do with Chelsea dropping deep after their goal, packing their half and playing on the counter. So, calling Xabi on his lack of creativity is harsh when teammates aren't making runs and the league's best defensive side are plugging on the passing lanes

Okay Bob for my part the Alonso Chelsea thing is done we have our opinions, to which we've discussed. I still stand by mine though. Its one game and one player we're talking about and I dont think our views would probably differ that much from the game apart from a few semantics, I say he was poor you say he was average.

I think this next debate will bring Stu in, Xabi apparently has more creativity in his p.oo than Gerrard. He claims to be another know it all, so with that comment he made I'm truly dissapointed as its proved the point he doesnt know it all hey Stu ?

" For Alonso its about playing players into positions " your quote Bob, and its exactly right. That IMO is what a deep lying playmaker means. It doesnt mean neccessarily to create ' goal scoring oppotunities' or to create goals. Thats what Xabi offers us, but not a lot more on the attacking front. But when considering he is a deep midfielder that also has to do the "unsung" stuff its sufficient for us at times.
But as apparent as it was against Chelsea and for trying to get past one of the meanest defences, its not enough. And as Stu would say, IMO if you play Xabi, and Mascha in the same team throughout the course of the season I honestly doubt it will win you the title. Even against Boro the other week it happened until Gerrard was dropped deeper in the center. For breaking down teams like that Xabi isnt the player, Luis Garcia is or Harry Kewell and Gerrard. They actually create threat to opposing defences, Xabi plays our players into their positions like you said.

I suppose this is a question aimed at Stu more than Bob, but when we're (Liverpool) playing at home to a team like Boro, or away at City and 70 mins have gone and its nil nil. Who are you actually looking at or what one player on the pitch do you think can change that game ?

Everytime its Gerrard for me and I'd best most Liverpool fans would say the same, hell if not him you might be thinking Crouch can nick something Kuyt or Pennant even. But nine out of ten times its Gerrard, and you know why, because he can change a game in an instant as he did against Boro which is a prime example of our midfield lacking creativity. He created the space and let fly from 25 yards, so not only does he create but he often comes out with end product.

Now I cannot honesty say the same thing about Xabi during a game like that, he's probably the last person all barring Reina who I can see creating or even better SCORING a goal. And thats simply because his game isnt about that, its as said before about playing players into positions, spreading the play even starting an attack from defence. Thats what a deep lying midfielder does, and thats what Xabi does. I think though if he's playing the majority of prem games he has done this year we should be expecting a decent goals return from him, even six or seven. IMo to be a title winning side our midfield as a whole have got to create, score and play high tempo attacking football against opponents, as it stands they dont, once that changes we might be in with a shout of winning the league, but like I said that wont come with Mascha and Xabi in the middle.

So what you're saying effectively is Lampard's more "creative" than Gerrard then as he has more assists and more goals over the last few seasons?

I agree we all look to Gerrard to make something happen, thats because he's the only world class player we have. If he's the most creative player we have next season then we'll be in for more of the same.

The reason we struggle to break teams down is because he's our most creative player. Last sesaon we had Fowler and Kewell aswell, this season we're back to only having Gerrard and it shows.

End of.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:10 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
3) Creativity, both you and Saint suggest, was lacking from Xabi's game on Wednesday. Well, I agree with your reply to Stu--Alonso's brand of creativity is much different than Gerrard's. For Alonso, it's about playing players in to good positions. I thought he did that reasonably well with his passes to the flanks (which Zenden, his main target do to Gerrard being infield, did little with) but what about his through balls? Well, he tried a few and they didn't come off. A couple were over-hit and ran out of play (one would have played Gerrard in if it was a little softer), while the best one hit the ref (good spot Saint, although I think Alonso had some reason to expect that Merk could get out of the way). But, it must be said, a player like Alonso can only do so much and 50% of an effective through ball is the run of his teammates. Were people making the runs for him on Wednesday? I don't think so. Bellamy did't, Kuyt and Crouch tried intermittently, Zenden didn't and Gerrard did but often in a congested space just in front of Alonso. All of this, of course, had a lot to do with Chelsea dropping deep after their goal, packing their half and playing on the counter. So, calling Xabi on his lack of creativity is harsh when teammates aren't making runs and the league's best defensive side are plugging on the passing lanes

Okay Bob for my part the Alonso Chelsea thing is done we have our opinions, to which we've discussed. I still stand by mine though. Its one game and one player we're talking about and I dont think our views would probably differ that much from the game apart from a few semantics, I say he was poor you say he was average.

I think this next debate will bring Stu in, Xabi apparently has more creativity in his p.oo than Gerrard. He claims to be another know it all, so with that comment he made I'm truly dissapointed as its proved the point he doesnt know it all hey Stu ?

" For Alonso its about playing players into positions " your quote Bob, and its exactly right. That IMO is what a deep lying playmaker means. It doesnt mean neccessarily to create ' goal scoring oppotunities' or to create goals. Thats what Xabi offers us, but not a lot more on the attacking front. But when considering he is a deep midfielder that also has to do the "unsung" stuff its sufficient for us at times.
But as apparent as it was against Chelsea and for trying to get past one of the meanest defences, its not enough. And as Stu would say, IMO if you play Xabi, and Mascha in the same team throughout the course of the season I honestly doubt it will win you the title. Even against Boro the other week it happened until Gerrard was dropped deeper in the center. For breaking down teams like that Xabi isnt the player, Luis Garcia is or Harry Kewell and Gerrard. They actually create threat to opposing defences, Xabi plays our players into their positions like you said.

I suppose this is a question aimed at Stu more than Bob, but when we're (Liverpool) playing at home to a team like Boro, or away at City and 70 mins have gone and its nil nil. Who are you actually looking at or what one player on the pitch do you think can change that game ?

Everytime its Gerrard for me and I'd best most Liverpool fans would say the same, hell if not him you might be thinking Crouch can nick something Kuyt or Pennant even. But nine out of ten times its Gerrard, and you know why, because he can change a game in an instant as he did against Boro which is a prime example of our midfield lacking creativity. He created the space and let fly from 25 yards, so not only does he create but he often comes out with end product.

Now I cannot honesty say the same thing about Xabi during a game like that, he's probably the last person all barring Reina who I can see creating or even better SCORING a goal. And thats simply because his game isnt about that, its as said before about playing players into positions, spreading the play even starting an attack from defence. Thats what a deep lying midfielder does, and thats what Xabi does. I think though if he's playing the majority of prem games he has done this year we should be expecting a decent goals return from him, even six or seven. IMo to be a title winning side our midfield as a whole have got to create, score and play high tempo attacking football against opponents, as it stands they dont, once that changes we might be in with a shout of winning the league, but like I said that wont come with Mascha and Xabi in the middle.

Fair enough, mate--we'll call it a draw!

I agree with you that Alonso and Mascherano are too much alike to play together for most of our games. Both shield the defense, snuff out danger and start moves from deep positions. Alonso has better long-range passing but I think Mascherano is better at creating space for himself in the opposition's final third (as he did brilliantly away to PSV to start the move for Gerrard's opening goal). I'd like to see them rotate a bit over the course of the season, all things being equal and, yes, I'd like to see both chipping in with a few more goals (that's a bit harsh on Mascherano given his lack of games this season but you know what I mean). When Benitez signed Mascherano he explicitly said that Javier would push Alonso for a starting berth. I hope he still has that in mind--rather than playing both of them in CM a lot of the time.

I'd also like to see either of them partnering Gerrard in the centre--both because Stevie's more effective there (I've definitely conceded that debate) and because Pennant provides a better target for Mascherano and especially for Xabi down the right flank. If we ever get Kewell back or sign a proper left winger I truly believe that Alonso's passing game will noticeably improve--he needs targets all over the pitch to be at his most effective.

And, yes, Gerrard is the player you look to when you need to create a goal in a tight match but don't count Alonso out in those situations. I nice diagonal ball to Pennant or Kewell (or whoever we sign as a winger) on the flank might be the piece of skill needed to get us in behind a well organized defence and get a dangerous ball into the box.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:14 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
3) Creativity, both you and Saint suggest, was lacking from Xabi's game on Wednesday. Well, I agree with your reply to Stu--Alonso's brand of creativity is much different than Gerrard's. For Alonso, it's about playing players in to good positions. I thought he did that reasonably well with his passes to the flanks (which Zenden, his main target do to Gerrard being infield, did little with) but what about his through balls? Well, he tried a few and they didn't come off. A couple were over-hit and ran out of play (one would have played Gerrard in if it was a little softer), while the best one hit the ref (good spot Saint, although I think Alonso had some reason to expect that Merk could get out of the way). But, it must be said, a player like Alonso can only do so much and 50% of an effective through ball is the run of his teammates. Were people making the runs for him on Wednesday? I don't think so. Bellamy did't, Kuyt and Crouch tried intermittently, Zenden didn't and Gerrard did but often in a congested space just in front of Alonso. All of this, of course, had a lot to do with Chelsea dropping deep after their goal, packing their half and playing on the counter. So, calling Xabi on his lack of creativity is harsh when teammates aren't making runs and the league's best defensive side are plugging on the passing lanes

Okay Bob for my part the Alonso Chelsea thing is done we have our opinions, to which we've discussed. I still stand by mine though. Its one game and one player we're talking about and I dont think our views would probably differ that much from the game apart from a few semantics, I say he was poor you say he was average.

I think this next debate will bring Stu in, Xabi apparently has more creativity in his p.oo than Gerrard. He claims to be another know it all, so with that comment he made I'm truly dissapointed as its proved the point he doesnt know it all hey Stu ?

" For Alonso its about playing players into positions " your quote Bob, and its exactly right. That IMO is what a deep lying playmaker means. It doesnt mean neccessarily to create ' goal scoring oppotunities' or to create goals. Thats what Xabi offers us, but not a lot more on the attacking front. But when considering he is a deep midfielder that also has to do the "unsung" stuff its sufficient for us at times.
But as apparent as it was against Chelsea and for trying to get past one of the meanest defences, its not enough. And as Stu would say, IMO if you play Xabi, and Mascha in the same team throughout the course of the season I honestly doubt it will win you the title. Even against Boro the other week it happened until Gerrard was dropped deeper in the center. For breaking down teams like that Xabi isnt the player, Luis Garcia is or Harry Kewell and Gerrard. They actually create threat to opposing defences, Xabi plays our players into their positions like you said.

I suppose this is a question aimed at Stu more than Bob, but when we're (Liverpool) playing at home to a team like Boro, or away at City and 70 mins have gone and its nil nil. Who are you actually looking at or what one player on the pitch do you think can change that game ?

Everytime its Gerrard for me and I'd best most Liverpool fans would say the same, hell if not him you might be thinking Crouch can nick something Kuyt or Pennant even. But nine out of ten times its Gerrard, and you know why, because he can change a game in an instant as he did against Boro which is a prime example of our midfield lacking creativity. He created the space and let fly from 25 yards, so not only does he create but he often comes out with end product.

Now I cannot honesty say the same thing about Xabi during a game like that, he's probably the last person all barring Reina who I can see creating or even better SCORING a goal. And thats simply because his game isnt about that, its as said before about playing players into positions, spreading the play even starting an attack from defence. Thats what a deep lying midfielder does, and thats what Xabi does. I think though if he's playing the majority of prem games he has done this year we should be expecting a decent goals return from him, even six or seven. IMo to be a title winning side our midfield as a whole have got to create, score and play high tempo attacking football against opponents, as it stands they dont, once that changes we might be in with a shout of winning the league, but like I said that wont come with Mascha and Xabi in the middle.

So what you're saying effectively is Lampard's more "creative" than Gerrard then as he has more assists and more goals over the last few seasons?

I agree we all look to Gerrard to make something happen, thats because he's the only world class player we have. If he's the most creative player we have next season then we'll be in for more of the same.

The reason we struggle to break teams down is because he's our most creative player. Last sesaon we had Fowler and Kewell aswell, this season we're back to only having Gerrard and it shows.

End of.

No not at all.

I'm saying he's more creative than Xabi.

End of.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:18 pm

The Specialist wrote:Yeah, Bob, I kind of had a feeling your anger didn't have much to do with my actual comments but rather something that has been building up inside of you for a while.

Yer, mate, that's the long and the short of it. If you can't tell I rate Alonso and it gets on my t!ts when it looks like he's getting singled out for OTT criticism.

No need to dissect this performance--and people's reactions to it--any further...but I do expect him to praised when he as a blinder on Tuesday!

BTW, you're officially upgraded to :cool:

now!

by **Rafa D** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:27 pm

I haven't entertained this thread at all as:

A) He has signed for Boro now and will not leave them this summer.

B) He's injury prone.

by **bigmick** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:58 am

What an excellent thread. FWIW I think Bamaga Man makes a very fair point about the people who like Alonso claiming they are "all seeing" and those who don't think he does enough sometimes being dismissed as clueless. I know I'm guilty myself sometimes of dismissing other peoples points of view (although in truth I normally just don't bother answering if I think somebody is clueless rather than explaining why I disagree) and it's wrong. Some on here defend alonso to the hilt, probably too much sometimes and I think Bamaga Man stood up for himself well.

All that said, I don't think either Alonso or Masherano were too bad the other night. I actually have this theory which it's pointless going into right now that the difference between a really good team, or a really good team performance is very little in truth, just a couple of details. As I said earlier in another thread, I thought that other than the two full-backs who were both desperately poor, everybody else did kind of OK but the team just lacked balance, pure and simple. It's probably the first time I've ever said this but I think Rafa got outmanoevred by Mourinho and Chelsea were set up better.

One last point and in reference to something else Bamaga said earlier in the thread. He alluded to the fact that some people think that gerrard is better on the right, but they have now gone quiet. Just to reiterate my own position, I most certainly think Gerrard is a better player on the right. The reason as I've said many times is that he is easier to get on the ball inside the final third when he starts from there, and that's where he can do most damage. BTW he is of course, as Bamaga rightly points out, by a distance the most creative player in the team. Not necessarily by means of a fifty yard pass, but in the sense that he ceates more danger by a quite considerable margin than anybody else in the team, even Alonso.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:24 am

All that said, I don't think either Alonso or Masherano were too bad the other night. I actually have this theory which it's pointless going into right now that the difference between a really good team, or a really good team performance is very little in truth, just a couple of details. As I said earlier in another thread, I thought that other than the two full-backs who were both desperately poor, everybody else did kind of OK but the team just lacked balance, pure and simple. It's probably the first time I've ever said this but I think Rafa got outmanoevred by Mourinho and Chelsea were set up better.

One last point and in reference to something else Bamaga said earlier in the thread. He alluded to the fact that some people think that gerrard is better on the right, but they have now gone quiet. Just to reiterate my own position, I most certainly think Gerrard is a better player on the right. The reason as I've said many times is that he is easier to get on the ball inside the final third when he starts from there, and that's where he can do most damage. BTW he is of course, as Bamaga rightly points out, by a distance the most creative player in the team. Not necessarily by means of a fifty yard pass, but in the sense that he ceates more danger by a quite considerable margin than anybody else in the team, even Alonso.

Not wanting to cause an arguement or draw things out into this debate, but in your first paragraph you refer to Liverpool in the Chelsea game as lacking balance. Then in your second paragraph stand by the notion that Gerrard is still better wide.

Their slightly contradicting for me Mick as you mentioned in one the "team lacked balance, pure and simple", as the balance of the side largely went out the window when Gerrard went searching in that particular game from right mid. You pointed out the full backs, as the culprits, defensively they were no doubt about it. But in the first half we were largely pinned back at times meaning Arbeloa couldnt get forward as much as he would of liked. During the second half he did or at least tried, remember Xabi's overcooked pass to him as he was making the break forward ?
From what I've seen of Arbeloa he does like to get up and support the man infront of him, he has linked well with Pennant recently which has produced a couple of goals on occasions from the right, but he could not do that atall against Chelsea as Gerrard goes off searching leaving him isolated and having knowone to work with. Thus the balance and shape becomes a problem its happened plenty of times when I've seen Gerrard out there.
You also said its easier for him to get into the game from out there, or at least into the final third. Again I disagree as all of my above post points out, because he cant get into the game he goes searching, and A.Cole really kept him quiet out there. I think its easier for teams to mark him out of a game in right midfield, much easier than it is to pick his bursting runs from the center. Gerrard tends to go searching for the ball when its not happening for him out wide, and unlike Pennant its not natural to him, Pennant for all his downfalls holds a much better balance and shape to the team and provides real width.

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