Liverpool FC Forum

Stu.Murph wrote:Whatever

On the football front, Drogba simply had to much pace, power, arial ability and intelligence for Agger. Which says it all about the lads level of ability.

Bamaga man wrote:

Well sorry, mate, but if you can't be bothered I guess I can't be bothered taking your assessment seriously.  I mean, if the stray passes weren't memorable enough to discuss they clearly didn't hurt us that badly.  And, let's be fair, our lads were producing stray passes all over the park.  Were any of Alonso's seriously worse than the nightmare back pass from Riise or the Mascherano gift to Drogba?  Gerrard had several passes cut out by Carvalho and Zenden passed it straight to Makelele on at least two occasions.  I'd be willing to bet that Alonso completed a lot more passes as a percentage than most of his teammates. 

Alonso tinted glasses !

Stu.Murph wrote:Whatever

On the football front, Drogba simply had to much pace, power, arial ability and intelligence for Agger. Which says it all about the lads level of ability.

Stu.Murph wrote:Whatever

On the football front, Drogba simply had to much pace, power, arial ability and intelligence for Agger. Which says it all about the lads level of ability.

Sabre wrote:Just read the second post of Bamaga man, and I think it's a proof of why football is so lovely.

It's difficult to say who's right or wrong, as it's a matter of perceptions. Just like when you see a Piccasso, you can say it's a shíte picture!! or  great art

Keep the footie discussion up!! see you on monday!

redtrader74 wrote:thought this thread was about woodgate?? irrelevent anyway as he's signed up for Boro

Same here but somebody dragged the Alonso topic in here with em. 

woof woof ! wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:Whatever

On the football front, Drogba simply had to much pace, power, arial ability and intelligence for Agger. Which says it all about the lads level of ability.

Whilst I agree with the bones of that statement Stu, it's also a little harsh on Agger (re his ability) . When on his game Drogba has to much pace, power, arial ability and intelligence for most central defenders .

It was certainly a mismatch but it my opinion it was due to Drogba's surfeit of quality rather than Agger's lack of it .

I still have nightmares over the Marseille game a few seasons back  when he absolutely terrorised Carragher AND Hypia and virtually won the match for Marseille on his own.

It was intended as a "clever" statement pretty much as you took it.

Agger's not a bad player, I've said it a million times, but I doubt Liverpool FC will ever win a championship with him and Carragher as a central defensive partnership. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm usually not!

s@int wrote:Chelsea v Liverpool
1 Goals 0
1 1st Half Goals 0
4 Shots on Target 4
9 Shots off Target 8
1 Blocked Shots 1
1 Corners 5
9 Fouls 19
5 Offsides 2
0 Yellow Cards 1
0 Red Cards 0
70.0 Passing Success 78.4
18 Tackles 25
38.9 Tackles Success 64.0
45.5 Possession 54.5
39.2 Territorial Advantage 60.8

Those are the stats for Wednesday night. We had more possession and a huge territorial advantage (we were in there half more) yet we created next to nothing. One perhaps 2 half chances in 90 mins. Xabi showed little if any creativity, in fact whenever he tried to play the ball forward he failed, he even passed to the referee on one occasion.

He reminded me on Wednesday of the way Butch (the crab) Wilkins used to play for England. Great at passing the ball sideways and hitting balls out to the wing(Alonso didn't even do that very effectively), but hopeless at playing through balls or showing any sort of creativity. Playing Mascherano and Xabi added extra responsibility to Xabi to show a bit more, against Chelsea he clearly failed to step up.

Statistics can lie :- Chelsea 4 shots Liverpool 4 shots on target :- sounds fairly even, but Chelsea's 4 shots included a goal and 2 great saves by Reina. Ours included a shot by Riise from about 50 yards away that was virtually a pass back. The only real shot we had all night was Gerrards volley.

The fact that someone can't remember individual mistakes by a player does not mean they are wrong in their opinion, most people do not sit watching a game with pen and paper making notes. Most people watch the game and make an assessment of individual performances as the game progresses. Football is about opinions not whether someone can remember specific actions in a game, many times a player is poor not because of what he did as much as what he DIDNT DO.

Anyone suggesting Alonso was poor the other day was watching a different game or clearly doesn't understand the game.

He moved the ball around with his usual quality and purpose and picked out players time and time again in space. He also commited Chelsea players which enabled players to find space. He also made four or five excellent interceptions. He wasn't at his best and didn't play "well" but he certainly wasn't poor.

Very average I'll take, but I'm hearing the same people saying Alonso was poor praising Zenden? Do us a favour? Alonso, like it or not was the only other Liverpool player bar Reina and Gerrard who bothered there to show up. The rest were absoloutely awful.

Alonso was also asked to play to high up the pitch against Chelsea, its as simple as that. He's a deep lying play maker who's at his best infront of the back four, not playing a "Paul Scholes" role.

Bamaga man wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:

The Specialist wrote:Sh.it, poor, way below par, not up to snuff? Is there really much of a difference there? Your argument is a silly one, mate. It's a definite overreaction.

Again, you keep on comparing other players. What for? I don't understand. Is Xabi to be excused? Did anyone excuse Agger for his part in Chelsea's goal? Arbeloa was key there, as he let Joe Cole stroll past him. Was Agger's defending against Drogba not so bad then when you look at the big picture? No, it doesn't matter.

You keep on going on about how he was "solid" and this and that, but why was he subbed then? Why wasn't Mascherano taken off instead? If I watched the game again, I would be in a better position to explain to you in detail what he did wrong. I didn't write things down or make mental notes of every play when I viewed the game.  I can't get into real specifics.

Also to be perfectly honest , I have been trying to forget the game completely since viewing it (as it was painful to watch). And I just don't care enough to try and re-live it just to get into an argument with you, so whatever...

If you want to dismiss my opinion, then fine. I don't really care what emoticon you assign to me. You're a middle-aged man assigning emoticons to random people on an internet messageboard. Who's the real " " ?

Just a couple of points in reply and then I swear I'll let it drop...

1) The sub, for me, was a tactical switch--a defensive midfielder came off and an attacking midfielder came on because we were chasing an away goal.  I don't think it had anything to do with Alonso having a poor game, I think Rafa just felt that Mascherano would "stay at home" more when Gerrard went forward, is all.  People, IMO, are reading too much into this substitution.

2) I really, truly believe that central midfielders are the hardest players to evaluate fairly in terms of performance.  How often has Gerrard been described as "quiet" or "below his best" this season just because he didn't score a 30 yard screamer or win a penalty?  When CMs do the flash stuff--like Alonso did against Newcastle at Anfield this season--they are rightly praised but when they don't, they are often quite unfairly criticized.  They can spend 90 minutes in the trenches, tackling, intercepting passes, tracking runs, shepherding ball carriers towards teammates, making themselves available for the safe pass, moving the ball around, taking kicks, winning headers--all the unsung stuff--and loads of people will still p!ss all over them if they didn't score a goal or set one up.  I've seen it many, many times on this board and others, so it's bigger than just Alonso against Chelsea but this time out it's been especially prevalent.  "Yer, Alonso's had another poor game" says someone and a chorus of "ayes" soon follows.  Personally, I'm sick of it because it's a lazy comment.  Why was Alonso (or Gerrard, or Mascherano, or Sissoko) poor?  If people are so sure he had a shocker than surely they won't mind taking a minute to explain their reasoning, with evidence from the match.  If they won't or can't do that, I just have to assume it's because they don't really understand the full scope of a CM's game and therefore can't appreciate all the little things that get done off the ball to ensure that the shape is maintained or the cleansheet is preserved or the scoring move gets started.  For the sake of quality football discussion let's pack the lazy punditry in and really get into these issues.  BTW, I'm not have a go at you per se--your comments were just the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were.

3) As for the emoticons, mate, I was just having a bit of fun! 

Please dont insinuate that you and only a few other posters can see the "unsung" things that Alonso does. Please dont try and insinuate your general understanding of the game is better than anyone else's.

Straight after the game I came on here and said Alonso had a shocker. Okay the shocker was ott but he did have a poor game. Quite a lot of people also on here thought so. But you and a couple of others went aganst the grain for whatever reason, and thats fair enough. But I'm not going to sit here and make out because I know more about football or in your case 'well written' get frustrated with the majority of people who said Xabi didnt have a good game.

Xabi's wasnt on top of his game the other night, as I said in the other thread his passing wasnt at his usual standard and dare I say it Bob it hasnt been all season compared to last. But thats a total different topic altogether. He gave away needless free-kicks constantly and in some silly areas and its unlike him. IMO Mascha did the "unsung" stuff better than Alonso, he was quiker to it. Alonso seemed a little off the pace and did he at no time ever control he tempo of the game.

Like I said before I wasnt singling him out, I was telling it as I saw it. Maybe he shouldnt of bleeted off to the press before hand about how he isnt intimidated by SB atmos. As he honestly seemed at times out of his depth and overun by the Chelsea midfield anyway. Its okay for you to pick out Riise's poor performance and highlight his pass or two and I agree, I even think he was well out of position for their goal. But it seems most people around here will agree with you about Riise he's another scapegoat at times. But the moment you say Alonso has a poor game the "so-called" knowlegable posters come and defend him until their blue in the face. Just like have done all season when saying Gerrards best position in their "honest and knowlegable opinion" is best deployed on the right. Since then you've jumped fence and they've gone quiet.

Back to the game against Chelsea though, the whole team were at best average. And in the first half the back four looked nervy as, the whole midfield in the first half was overun at times. In the first half we couldnt even get our strikers any decent supply to them while at the same to looking like we could of conceeded two or three. Pardon me mate but I think the midfield have to take some of the blame in all that.

In the second half we couldnt create, Gerrard was in A.Coles pocket. So he goes wondering off to make something happen and trys. The midfield duo of our as good as they usually are at breaking up play were devoid of ideas and creativity to do anything in the final third with the ball. Xabi tried to play a few passes in but they didnt come off giving possesion away. You said you reckon Alonso's pass completion would of been higher than any of our others. So did Didi Hammans used to be mostly because he played the ball square, hell even mine would be. But when looking to use the ball forward Alonso's wasnt. He should of came off earlier to allow creativity take place in the middle, with Pennant out wide. At the same time this was happening we still looked very parcial to conceeding a quick goal on the counter.

At the end of the day their creativity, pace and probably numbers made our "world class" midfield look overawed. Primarily because they dont offer the flair when in possesion as Chelsea do. This wasnt just Xabi's fault but the whole unit but in amongst that Xabi didnt have the best of games, if he did we may well of seen more than one attempt on target throughout the entire course of the game.

Your a good lad but you don't half talk some rubbish.

You talk about a lack of creativety? Alonso's got more creativety in his poo than Gerrard has and I find it absoloutely staggering anyone can suggest Gerrard's the more "creative" player. Creativety, translated into english means Vision, one of Gerrard's main weakness (although not weak and still at a more than capable level).

A prime example, the passes Alonso played at Sunderland last season from which Luis Garcia and Gerrard scored...

Not in a million years would Gerrard spot or execute two passes like that.