Liverpool FC Forum

by **Penguins** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:58 pm

Owzat wrote:Honestly I think their records are so close it's churlish to suggest one was better than the other. Put to one side any points comparisons, it is how you fare against the teams you face. I read suggestion that Houllier didn't have to face Citeh, no he had to face Newcastle and Leeds (not at the same time)

So how do they compare?

- Houllier finished 2nd with 80+ points, Rafa finished 2nd with 80+ points
- Both predominantly finished between 2nd and 5th in the league, averaging around 4th
- Both landed a European trophy, the European Super Cup and an FA Cup
- Neither won the league
- Both made good and bad signings

Houllier keeps banging on about how his team won the Champions League, he obviously feels bitter that he was dispensed with. What he should really point out is that he couldn't get the best out of his players, someone else got more out of his players! A lot weren't good enough anyway, Baros, Traore, Dudek, Smicer, Biscan, Kewell and Riise were never top drawer (well Kewell wasn't in a Liverpool shirt) And it was the likes of Gerrard, Alonso and Luis Garcia that got us to the final and to penalties.

What that article does confirm is Houllier likes to take a lot of credit, but does like to dodge blame. He says he was on the panel that kept Domenech on, but is quick to add that he wasn't the only one so deflecting blame. And I find it quite funny he claims credit for the Champions League victory as the players were mostly his signings, but doesn't take any blame for the league finish as the players were mostly his signings..........................................

Nowhere near Anfield please, not in an official working capacity. He's bound to want to input and we don't want to see any more next Zidanes, next Henrys, next Vieiras etc

It is not even a contest imo.

- Houllier finished 2nd with 80+ points, Rafa finished 2nd with 80+ points.
- Both predominantly finished between 2nd and 5th in the league, averaging around 4th
- Neither won the league

When GH was manager there was 2 really strong teams in the PL, Manure and Arsenal. RB came when Arsenal had just went unbeaten in the league, Chelski just spent some hundreds of millions on players and Manure had brought in Rooney, Ronaldo with a very strong squad in place. Not to mentioning RB took over a squad finishing 35 pts of the winners and getting practically nothing to spend.
Oh, and our main goal scorer left for nothing which to some degree is GH fault. Not to mention Man City coming along.

- Both landed a European trophy, the European Super Cup and an FA Cup

Please, as many have mentioned, the European trophy and the Uefa cup aren't in the same universe...

- Both made good and bad signings

Well, there is a difference between bad and abysmal.
GH spent enormous amounts on pure garbage that we had to throw away just to get rid of getting almost nothing back.
Even RB poor buys had their moments, played a part in the campaign and was sold at a minimal loss.
In total RB increased the value of the squad more than he spent, not something you could say about GH.

The most important thing though...
RB made players better.

GH left Rafa with inferior dross like Traore, Biscan, Smicer etc and Carra was a bit part player being used all over the place.
Both Carra and Gerrard had their best seasons when RB came.
He managed to get as much he could out of the above mentioned players.

by **dawson99** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:01 pm

I likde Houllier, he almost died for the club, and if hes bringing bignose back into management that'll be fun as well

by **Bermenstein** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:06 pm

dawson99 wrote:I likde Houllier, he almost died for the club, and if hes bringing bignose back into management that'll be fun as well

You could just imagine those 2 in the away dugout @ Anfield.

Tommo would get lashed out of it...

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:09 pm

Benitez at first was miles better than Houllier, not even close. As time went on however, and as his reign became more bizarre by the week, the two began to uncannily resemble each other. In their entirity, the two managers end up being extremely close to each other in terms of achievement in my book. Neither are anywhere near Liverpools all time great managers unfortunately.

Hopefully our new manager can get himself up there, he's certainly made the right moves so far :buttrock

.

by **Thommo's perm** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:38 pm

bigmick wrote:Benitez at first was miles better than Houllier, not even close. As time went on however, and as his reign became more bizarre by the week, the two began to uncannily resemble each other. In their entirity, the two managers end up being extremely close to each other in terms of achievement in my book. Neither are anywhere near Liverpools all time great managers unfortunately.

Hopefully our new manager can get himself up there, he's certainly made the right moves so far .

Some would argue tha Rafa was miles better at first BECAUSE of Houllier.
I cant actually remember how much I wanted GH to go. I think I was fed up to the back teeth of his bullsh'it. What I seem to rememember was him continually saying that his team had "character". Much like Rafas "we controlled the game" mantra.
The wound is still raw as far as Rafa is concerned so I cant say if Houllier wrecked my head as much, but I think its safe to say that, like Rafa, he deserved to go having lost le plot

by **Greavesie** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:43 pm

for me Rafa was better than Houlier, under Rafa we were clearly making 'progress' til that last season. Rafa had to work in more difficult circmstamces than Hou as well

by **Thommo's perm** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:49 pm

Greavesie wrote:for me Rafa was better than Houlier, under Rafa we were clearly making 'progress' til that last season. Rafa had to work in more difficult circmstamces than Hou as well

Hmm "progress"?
Not winning anything since 2006...?

"More difficult circumstances"
Care to elaborate?

by **Benny The Noon** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:51 pm

I'm guessing having owners who put no money into the club counts as difficult circumstances as opposed to being able to buy whoever you wanted .

by **Greavesie** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:52 pm

Thommo's perm wrote:
Greavesie wrote:for me Rafa was better than Houlier, under Rafa we were clearly making 'progress' til that last season. Rafa had to work in more difficult circmstamces than Hou as well

Hmm "progress"?
Not winning anything since 2006...?

"More difficult circumstances"
Care to elaborate?

working with the current owners, need I say more?

we finished second with a record points total in the Prem and we consistently got passed the group stages of the CL. Our place as a solid European side was pretty much cemented under Rafa in a much better way than Hou did anyway.

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:54 pm

I think at the end of Houllier's tenure it was always a given he had taken us as far as his capabilities as manager would allow him to ,however I don't believe the same could be said about Rafa ,I still firmly believe given the funds and the trust of the board to procure the players he truly wanted at Liverpool ,then We could have maybe won a lot more trophies under his expert tutelage and that includes the Premiership
you only have to look at the players he had earmarked all still notably unproven at the time .... but now Superstars of the modern game
such would have been the difference these players would have made ,I don't think anyone can discredit these beliefs held by many fans ...
No I firmly believe Houllier had ran out of ideas and his time was indeed up .... Rafa I believe had more to give ...........
My opinion some posters might say I am treading water with this one ....but like I said my considered opinion is his legacy was cruelly nipped in the bud ........by imposters operating under the guise that they know what's best for our beloved club

by **Thommo's perm** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:11 pm

We go round in circles over Rafa.
60 odd players in and out of a revolving door leads me to believe Rafa couldnt or wouldnt make his mind up.
He spent millions (and recouped some. I know) but failed to win anything after the fa cup.
Could he have done more? I doubt it. He was set in his ways and that was what eventually led to his downfall. To have given him more time was a gamble, thankfully, that the board wouldnt take.
I seriously think it could have been a disaster had he stayed wheras Houllier has just stalled

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:14 pm

RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:Rafa I believe had more to give ...........
but like I said my considered opinion is his legacy was cruelly nipped in the bud

"cruelly nipped in the bud"

He took us into 7th place in the league mate, we lost 19 matches and the players didn't want to play for him anymore.We can slag the people who control the club off for much, but thank God they pulled the trigger on Benitez when they did. Another couple of seasons of him and we would have sank forever into the abyss IMHO.

His last two big money signings had cost 40 million quid and were spectacular flops, you couldn't make a footballer out of the pair of them combined, and we couldn't beat Reading at Home in the FA Cup. We bombed out of the Champions League having been only able to get any points against a Hungarian pub team, and we stank the place out with our "football".

It's probably no surprise to you that I could not disagree more with you read of the situation. I only agree in the sense that benitez hadn't taken us as far as he could, he was capable of taking us much lower if he was given the opportunity as he had completely and utterly lost the plot.

by **Greavesie** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:15 pm

how come you're willing to give Hou the benefit of the doubt but not Rafa?

Rafa's best was better than Hou's

Rafa's worst was worse than Hou's

as soon as the Hou thread was bumped it was going to happen Benny

by **Benny The Noon** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:16 pm

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:33 pm

bigmick wrote:
RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:Rafa I believe had more to give ...........
but like I said my considered opinion is his legacy was cruelly nipped in the bud

"cruelly nipped in the bud" He took us into 7th place in the league mate, we lost 19 matches and the players didn't want to play for him anymore.We can slag the people who control the club off for much, but thank God they pulled the trigger on Benitez when they did. Another couple of seasons of him and we would have sank forever into the abyss IMHO.

His last two big money signings had cost 40 million quid and were spectacular flops, you couldn't make a footballer out of the pair of them combined, and we couldn't beat Reading at Home in the FA Cup. We bombed out of the Champions League having been only able to get any points against a Hungarian pub team, and we stank the place out with our "football".

It's probably no surprise to you that I could not disagree more with you read of the situation. I only agree in the sense that benitez hadn't taken us as far as he could, he was capable of taking us much lower if he was given the opportunity as he had completely and utterly lost the plot.

Like I said Mick its all about opinions ...and mine is that he could have taken us higher ..... surely its not infeasible for you to believe there are actually fans out there who believe as I do that his eventual ejection was handled extremely distastefully, and given another season with the promise of the funds he needed to buy the players (He actually wanted ) then he deserved another crack at the Premiership especially after coming so close the season before the last one .... I think mate your hatred for the man is born out of more than frustration at finishing seventh, if I am being honest......... but make no mistake there still exists a large proportion of supporters who believe as I do ...if I was alone in this train of thought I wouldn't be so vociferous in my views

Liverpool FC Forum

Houllier

Who is online