Liverpool FC Forum

by **JC_81** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:41 pm

JoeTerp wrote:Arteta is probably just as "English" and Owen Hargreaves (born in Canada, played most his career in Germany, FFS according to UEFA Champions roster rules, Fabregas is "English" and Hargreaves is "German")

It's completely different Joe.

Hargreaves parents (or at least one of them) are English. Similarly Aiden McGeady who was born and bred in Scotland has two Irish parents and has opted to play for Ireland.

For the sake of argument, if I was English, my wife was English and I had a son who happened to make it as a top footballer, I would also see him as English even if I had to bring him up in another country due to work commitments or otherwise. He should therefore have the option of playing for England imo.

It is absolute nonsense comparing Hargreaves to the Arteta situation, Arteta is Spanish, simple as that, and no law should exist that allows him to be eligible for England.

by **Judge** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:25 pm

if you believe the out of africa theory, then that makes everyone inherintly african, therefore no one can play for england

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:38 pm

john craig wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:Arteta is probably just as "English" and Owen Hargreaves (born in Canada, played most his career in Germany, FFS according to UEFA Champions roster rules, Fabregas is "English" and Hargreaves is "German")

It's completely different Joe.

Hargreaves parents (or at least one of them) are English. Similarly Aiden McGeady who was born and bred in Scotland has two Irish parents and has opted to play for Ireland.

For the sake of argument, if I was English, my wife was English and I had a son who happened to make it as a top footballer, I would also see him as English even if I had to bring him up in another country due to work commitments or otherwise. He should therefore have the option of playing for England imo.

It is absolute nonsense comparing Hargreaves to the Arteta situation, Arteta is Spanish, simple as that, and no law should exist that allows him to be eligible for England.

Arteta has lived in England longer than Hargreaves has. I would think that is a much deeper connection to a place and history than having your parents be from a place and tell you what it was like and show you pictures.

Its also not that fair of an arguement because it isn't 2010 yet. Maybe when his 5 years time in England has come and gone and you will have seen him on the tele for so long and his English improves and he (possibly I don't know much about him personally but that isn't the point I am arguing in the general) settles a family in ENGLAND, I would say that would make him very English.

What is Hargreaves had never transferred to Manchester? What if he had never even visited England until his first training session. Both players were born outside the country, (in this hypothetical) at least Arteta makes his living in the country he is representing.

Playing for the country of your parents seems to tie too much towards ethnicity and race than nationality (unless of course one also ends up growing up or living a large part of their life in that country as well)

by **JC_81** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:05 am

JoeTerp wrote:Arteta has lived in England longer than Hargreaves has. I would think that is a much deeper connection to a place and history than having your parents be from a place and tell you what it was like and show you pictures.

A Spaniard living in England has a 'deeper connection to a place and history' than someone who is of English parentage but brought up in Canada?? The only deep connection Arteta has to England is his pay packet mate.

Also to suggest that I am bringing ethnicity and race into this is nonsense. If Hargreaves had no family English connections I would be speaking about him in the exact same way as I am Arteta.

Let's flip it around then Joe. You're American right? Anyway, let's say you are. You marry an American girl, then your job takes you to Zambia (for argument's sake :laugh:

). You then have a kid, who grows up in Zambia and goes to school, then your job takes you to Germany and you all live there for a while. Are you going to insist to your son that he must play for Zambia, or even Germany, because he has a 'deeper connection to the place and it's history' than he does to his American roots? Bollox you are mate.

by **Number 9** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:24 am

JoeTerp wrote:
john craig wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:Arteta is probably just as "English" and Owen Hargreaves (born in Canada, played most his career in Germany, FFS according to UEFA Champions roster rules, Fabregas is "English" and Hargreaves is "German")

It's completely different Joe.

Hargreaves parents (or at least one of them) are English. Similarly Aiden McGeady who was born and bred in Scotland has two Irish parents and has opted to play for Ireland.

For the sake of argument, if I was English, my wife was English and I had a son who happened to make it as a top footballer, I would also see him as English even if I had to bring him up in another country due to work commitments or otherwise. He should therefore have the option of playing for England imo.

It is absolute nonsense comparing Hargreaves to the Arteta situation, Arteta is Spanish, simple as that, and no law should exist that allows him to be eligible for England.

Arteta has lived in England longer than Hargreaves has. I would think that is a much deeper connection to a place and history than having your parents be from a place and tell you what it was like and show you pictures.

Its also not that fair of an arguement because it isn't 2010 yet. Maybe when his 5 years time in England has come and gone and you will have seen him on the tele for so long and his English improves and he (possibly I don't know much about him personally but that isn't the point I am arguing in the general) settles a family in ENGLAND, I would say that would make him very English.

What is Hargreaves had never transferred to Manchester? What if he had never even visited England until his first training session. Both players were born outside the country, (in this hypothetical) at least Arteta makes his living in the country he is representing.

Playing for the country of your parents seems to tie too much towards ethnicity and race than nationality (unless of course one also ends up growing up or living a large part of their life in that country as well)

Just because Yanks have no history?

They see everything that happens outside as another world

by **JoeTerp** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:01 am

john craig wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:Arteta has lived in England longer than Hargreaves has. I would think that is a much deeper connection to a place and history than having your parents be from a place and tell you what it was like and show you pictures.

A Spaniard living in England has a 'deeper connection to a place and history' than someone who is of English parentage but brought up in Canada?? The only deep connection Arteta has to England is his pay packet mate.

Also to suggest that I am bringing ethnicity and race into this is nonsense. If Hargreaves had no family English connections I would be speaking about him in the exact same way as I am Arteta.

Let's flip it around then Joe. You're American right? Anyway, let's say you are. You marry an American girl, then your job takes you to Zambia (for argument's sake ). You then have a kid, who grows up in Zambia and goes to school, then your job takes you to Germany and you all live there for a while. Are you going to insist to your son that he must play for Zambia, or even Germany, because he has a 'deeper connection to the place and it's history' than he does to his American roots? Bollox you are mate.

if I pretend that its 2010 already . . . Arteta will have eaten food in England, interacted with English people, spoken the English Language, driven on English streets, shopped in English shops, lived in English weather, breathed English air, earned English money, lived in an English home, (possibly began to bring up and raise a family in England, sent his children to English schools), and in pretty much every way lived an English lifestyle (albeit a posh one and probably still with a lot of Spanish roots, but there is only so much of your old hometown and way of life that you can take with you.

compared to a life where maybe you would hear some stories sometimes of what England was like a long time ago when your parents lived there, and maybe the occasional holiday. I would say the above example is much more in line with what it means to be English in the year 2010 than the 2nd example.

I would tell my son to play for whatever country he felt he belonged to more and could identify with the culture the best. I would be shocked if his answer was a place that he had never been to before.

by **Toffeehater** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:23 am

Number 9 wrote:
Toffeehater wrote:The thing is with arterta he's inconsistent , just like any of our right players bar gerrard .
He performs well for one game and than disappears for the next three . He's set pieces are good at times but there are even occasions more often than usual that he hits the first man in freekicks and corners . He can pick out his man and can cross the ball well , would like him here and yes i think what barry has said is true he's wasting his career and chance to get called up by the spain squad at everton who have been poor and even their standout performers have been made to look that way .

Dont agree with that one bit mate apart from the bit when you agree with me!
I dont see enough of Everton to know for a fact but from what I do see I think its unfair to call him inconsistant and to say he plays well one game and goes missing for three.
I see a very intelligent footballer when I watch him,his passing is superb and he can beat a man no bother.He plays it simple when needed but also has the ability to create things himself!
Maybe you are mistaking the fact he's surrounded by mediocracy,players that are not on a par with him and fail to read his game for inconsistancy?
Just a thought...but personally i feel he's very under rated and should be doing more with his career!

Yes he can do all those but like i said mate he's inconsistent but would still love him here . Rafa should submit a bid but will moyes and co accept it ? They are going to want silly money for him .

by **Sabre** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:52 pm

Arteta will have eaten food in England, interacted with English people, spoken the English Language, driven on English streets, shopped in English shops, lived in English weather, breathed English air, earned English money, lived in an English home, (possibly began to bring up and raise a family in England, sent his children to English schools), and in pretty much every way lived an English lifestyle (albeit a posh one and probably still with a lot of Spanish roots, but there is only so much of your old hometown and way of life that you can take with you.

If I did all that, plus, respect all brittish laws, go to support an english club, pay the taxes etc, I'd still be a Spaniard living in England and I wouldn't want to get a new nationality. Countries always will have foreign citizens, either as diplomats or workers.

It hasn't to do anything with race or ethnics mate. The Spaniards descendant from the Africa colonies (Guinea) or Algeria, are different race, different religion even, but they're as Spaniards as me in their traditions.

But I don't consider what you say bóllocks, but a different culture. Your country is the union of 51 states, each of which were the union of different traditions coming from Spain, England, the Dutch and native americans. Your philosophy of nation (I think) is to assimilate everything for the nation, gathering everything. It's as if you welcome everything to be part of the nation, meanwhile we welcome everything, but we don't consider our own the foreign people that just live here -- regardless they're treated very well. When Senna joins the Spanish nationality, he swears loyalty to the King and to the Constitution, we don't ask him to be white or catholic, just SPanish, if you see what I mean. It's some sort of acceptance of the Spanish values.

While being English or Spanish implies traditions that are older than the flu.

I would tell my son to play for whatever country he felt he belonged to more and could identify with the culture the best. I would be shocked if his answer was a place that he had never been to before.

I would tell my son the same thing but I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted to play for Spain. It's up to him to consider his own some values or others. He wouldn't have been in Spain physically, but he was educated in this values. I'd even understand him to have a double nationality, as many Basques have.

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