Liverpool FC Forum

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

His performances of late prove he is growing in confidence ,and I fully expect him to play a huge role in next seasons team .

[Wildcard]

Why would anyone get rid of Kuyt? He is an excellent player even though getting on a bit (remember he starts for 2nd best team in the World - Holland) I think the whole world knows that Carroll is just not that good, the price tag didn't help him but he will never get you even 15 goals a season i doubt.  Downing never ever scores or seems to do anything and i'm sorry but even though Spearing tries his hardest he is no better than an average Championship Midfielder. We need world class players not run of the mill workhorses.

we need another striker so one has to go.i would choose kuyt over carroll.
carroll is young and has the potential to improve where as kuyt hasnt.carroll is struggling yes but he's beginning to turn it around for himself,he works hard but just needs to find an end product.he has only been here just over a year and has a lot of pressure on his shoulders and imo he's beginning to settle and will be much better next season.is he worth £35mil ,will he get you 30 goals next season probably not.but he will be more valuable to the team than kuyt who hasnt exactly been magnificent the last 2 seasons and the chances of him ripping the prem apart next season are pretty slim.its nothing personal about kuyt.i think it makes better sense than selling kuyt over carroll because selling kuyt isnt going to come back and bite us on the ar$e where as prematurely selling carroll could.
downing for me has been the biggest disapointment of all the signings and im beginning to wonder if he could even be bothered trying to improve.
funny though that you think a young workhorse is"no better than an average championship midfielder" but a knackered workhorse an excellent player.

[Wildcard]

Kuyt is a top class player as he has proved over the years, including scoring crucial goals for Livp. You don't start for the 2nd best team in the world (Holland) if you are a knackered workhorse. Maybe if he had started more games this season they would have more points, in fact i guarantee they would. Spearing and Henderson starting on a regular basis is half the reason why we never win a game. But the main factor is KK at this time is easily in the top 3 worst manager's in the league(or any league i would say). How can you be 16pts behind Newcastle with all that money spent??? The game has moved on since he last managed and he was out of the game way too long. How he is still in a job is mind boggling. I please ask people to have a close look at the league results this season and it makes you just cringe. If he stays as manager i believe they will finish anywhere from 10th to 15th next season!! I would love to know the reaction of people on here if someone else was the manager at present.

[Roger Red Hat]

But the main factor is KK at this time is easily in the top 3 worst manager's in the league(or any league i would say).

You jumped up disrespectful horse faced sh!te-ster

take your manc ar$e elsewhere you homo

[supersub]

But the main factor is KK at this time is easily in the top 3 worst manager's in the league(or any league i would say).

You jumped up disrespectful horse faced sh!te-ster

take your manc ar$e elsewhere you homo

ouch

[jacdaniel]

Kuyt is a top class player as he has proved over the years, including scoring crucial goals for Livp. You don't start for the 2nd best team in the world (Holland) if you are a knackered workhorse. Maybe if he had started more games this season they would have more points, in fact i guarantee they would. Spearing and Henderson starting on a regular basis is half the reason why we never win a game. But the main factor is KK at this time is easily in the top 3 worst manager's in the league(or any league i would say). How can you be 16pts behind Newcastle with all that money spent??? The game has moved on since he last managed and he was out of the game way too long. How he is still in a job is mind boggling. I please ask people to have a close look at the league results this season and it makes you just cringe. If he stays as manager i believe they will finish anywhere from 10th to 15th next season!! I would love to know the reaction of people on here if someone else was the manager at present.

We could still finish the season with more trophies than any other English club... you are aware of that right?

[RedAnt]

How can you be 16pts behind Newcastle with all that money spent??? The game has moved on since he last managed and he was out of the game way too long. How he is still in a job is mind boggling.

Why would you question us being 16pts behind Newcastle after "all that money spent???" and yet say in the next sentence that "The game has moved on since he last managed"? I wasn't aware that "all that money spent" would ensure us a finish above Newcastle. By your reckoning then Manchester City are CERTAIN to win the league since they've spent more than Manure.

Money dosen't buy success (Thank God) but it does buy players who then need perform on the pitch. To be able to perform on the pitch to a satisfactory level will take more than one season i'm afraid. You've already stated in your post that Newcastle are better than us. There's a fair few clubs better than us. We're rebuilding a team after an absolutely disasterous couple of seasons.

One year, Kenny. That's all your legendary status, glittering managerial and playing career and adoring fans will allow you.

You'll Never walk alone.

(I know this ain't about Carroll. Just wanted to respond to that f-.....ool.

[D___C]

whoops.. no comment

[maguskwt]

Fernando Torres aka Judas last night anticipated the clearance from his team, stayed on side by staying in his own half, brought down the ball neatly with a feather touch, ran half length of the field, rounded the keeper and cooly slotted in the goal that put the nail in the coffin for Barca. That's what leading the line is all about. If the opposition has a lapse, you need to punish them. I very much doubt that Andy has the skills, the awareness and the composure to this if he was given the same opportunity...

[maguskwt]

Carroll is a great player if given the service. Next season if we played Gerrard just behind Suarez and Carroll i think we would be alot more threatening. All we need is a player to sit next to Lucas an Essien or de Jong type. Also a right midfielder someone who will just put them in the box for the lads.

Carroll is a great player when given service? I thought he had quite good service against West Brom and his headers were disappointing. He had a good overall game but his attempts on goal were disappointing. He didn't test the keeper at all. If the service needed to be better than this then Crouch and Heskey would be great players as well...

quite good service against west brom? must have been watching a different game to me. our crossing in general is really poor and comes from far too deep on the pitch. they're also floated far too often which means carroll has to generate the pace himself. he needs the ball whipping in with pace. gerrard and bellamy are the only players who do this with any regularity. gerrard doesn't play wide and bellamy spends most of his time on the bench. downing is also in and out the side.

You may have a point there stmike. Maybe it's the type of cross he doesn't like. But then isn't that Steve Clarke and Kenny's responsibility? That's where I say that our coaching and to a certain extent the tactics are not up to the mark. First of all playing Henderson on the right is very wrong. I'd rather play Gerrard there. Then the midfield of Adam and whoever's playing DM has no creativity at all. Downing for all his work rate and running has been disappointing with crosses and end product. Suarez for all his slicing through defences tries to do it all alone. Our team lacks composure and finishing the moves that we create. And that's simply why we are not winning games...

What happened to Adam btw? Dropped? Injured?

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

Kuyt is a top class player as he has proved over the years, including scoring crucial goals for Livp. You don't start for the 2nd best team in the world (Holland) if you are a knackered workhorse. Maybe if he had started more games this season they would have more points, in fact i guarantee they would. Spearing and Henderson starting on a regular basis is half the reason why we never win a game. But the main factor is KK at this time is easily in the top 3 worst manager's in the league(or any league i would say). How can you be 16pts behind Newcastle with all that money spent??? The game has moved on since he last managed and he was out of the game way too long. How he is still in a job is mind boggling. I please ask people to have a close look at the league results this season and it makes you just cringe. If he stays as manager i believe they will finish anywhere from 10th to 15th next season!! I would love to know the reaction of people on here if someone else was the manager at present.

Certain words that are just alien to Reds fans when describing the club WE love .

[RedAnt]

Fernando Torres aka Judas last night anticipated the clearance from his team, stayed on side by staying in his own half, brought down the ball neatly with a feather touch, ran half length of the field, rounded the keeper and cooly slotted in the goal that put the nail in the coffin for Barca. That's what leading the line is all about. If the opposition has a lapse, you need to punish them. I very much doubt that Andy has the skills, the awareness and the composure to this if he was given the same opportunity...

Yeah, but this same Fernando Torres aka Judas also anticipated a big money move to Chelsea and left us with a day to sign a replacement. I think Andy's one major problem was being given the number 9. This left the likes of D_C and Boxscarf and co (Football Manager types I expect) to believe that we had a new Fowler/Owen/Rush/Torres. He's not a playmaking number 10, nor is he a prolific, goalscoring number 9. The fact is that the number 9 on the back of a football shirt dosen't guarantee goals. The old number 9 and 10 strike pairing is outdated. The goal poaching striker is from the olden days too. Modern forwards come under a number of categegories, and whilst there may be one or two "classical" goalpoachers around, they're a very rare and dieing breed.

Let's take two examples of striker to illustrate how things have changed. Michael Owen and Gary Lineker.

Lineker could do ONE thing and that was PUT THE BALL IN THE NET. He openly admits to having no real footballing skill. He just new where to be and when to be there and would invariably stick the ball into the net. That was all he needed to do. The rest of the team did the work. This of course was years ago....

Now take Owen...he stormed in, scoring on his debut, then went on to score many, many more goals. He had more to his game than Lineker did but IT STILL WASN'T ENOUGH for modern day football. The coaches worked hour after hour after freaking hour to sharpen up his left foot. Then they worked week after week after freaking week to add some heading to his game. That's how modern football is. We could have left Owen to be the wonderful goalscorer that he was, but that's outdated. A forward needs much more these days.

Now take Owen and Carroll and compare their styles, techniques and skills. Andy Carroll is technically a much more complete forward. Owen scores more, sure, but he can't hold the ball like Carroll. Owen's pace terrified defenders, but in a physical battle the lil man had no hope. Carroll on the other hand is like a bulldozer.

I've got bored of typing now, but keep comparing. If you add up the points, weigh up the pro's and con's of each player, I think we may find that Andy Carroll is a much, MUCH more complete forward than Owen was at that age.

To summarise, yes, I believe we need a prolific goalscorer. But to sell Andy Carroll and allow some other club to reap the fruits of our impatience and rash judgement would be complete foolishness.

Andy Carroll can have a great future as part of our squad. I just wish he'd never been given the number 9 and that we'd never paid such a hefty fee (though we had NO choice..other than to simply not sign anyone, and what would everyone have said about that?). It deludes the more naive supporters into thinking he's the next 40 goal a season super striker.

[RedAnt]

[quote="

What happened to Adam btw? Dropped? Injured?[/quote]

Our for the season I think?

[maguskwt]

Fernando Torres aka Judas last night anticipated the clearance from his team, stayed on side by staying in his own half, brought down the ball neatly with a feather touch, ran half length of the field, rounded the keeper and cooly slotted in the goal that put the nail in the coffin for Barca. That's what leading the line is all about. If the opposition has a lapse, you need to punish them. I very much doubt that Andy has the skills, the awareness and the composure to this if he was given the same opportunity...

Yeah, but this same Fernando Torres aka Judas also anticipated a big money move to Chelsea and left us with a day to sign a replacement. I think Andy's one major problem was being given the number 9. This left the likes of D_C and Boxscarf and co (Football Manager types I expect) to believe that we had a new Fowler/Owen/Rush/Torres. He's not a playmaking number 10, nor is he a prolific, goalscoring number 9. The fact is that the number 9 on the back of a football shirt dosen't guarantee goals. The old number 9 and 10 strike pairing is outdated. The goal poaching striker is from the olden days too. Modern forwards come under a number of categegories, and whilst there may be one or two "classical" goalpoachers around, they're a very rare and dieing breed.

Let's take two examples of striker to illustrate how things have changed. Michael Owen and Gary Lineker.

Lineker could do ONE thing and that was PUT THE BALL IN THE NET. He openly admits to having no real footballing skill. He just new where to be and when to be there and would invariably stick the ball into the net. That was all he needed to do. The rest of the team did the work. This of course was years ago....

Now take Owen...he stormed in, scoring on his debut, then went on to score many, many more goals. He had more to his game than Lineker did but IT STILL WASN'T ENOUGH for modern day football. The coaches worked hour after hour after freaking hour to sharpen up his left foot. Then they worked week after week after freaking week to add some heading to his game. That's how modern football is. We could have left Owen to be the wonderful goalscorer that he was, but that's outdated. A forward needs much more these days.

Now take Owen and Carroll and compare their styles, techniques and skills. Andy Carroll is technically a much more complete forward. Owen scores more, sure, but he can't hold the ball like Carroll. Owen's pace terrified defenders, but in a physical battle the lil man had no hope. Carroll on the other hand is like a bulldozer.

I've got bored of typing now, but keep comparing. If you add up the points, weigh up the pro's and con's of each player, I think we may find that Andy Carroll is a much, MUCH more complete forward than Owen was at that age.

To summarise, yes, I believe we need a prolific goalscorer. But to sell Andy Carroll and allow some other club to reap the fruits of our impatience and rash judgement would be complete foolishness.

Andy Carroll can have a great future as part of our squad. I just wish he'd never been given the number 9 and that we'd never paid such a hefty fee (though we had NO choice..other than to simply not sign anyone, and what would everyone have said about that?). It deludes the more naive supporters into thinking he's the next 40 goal a season super striker.

I get where you're coming from generally but I have to say I disagree.

"If you add up the points, weigh up the pro's and con's of each player, I think we may find that Andy Carroll is a much, MUCH more complete forward than Owen was at that age"

What you're saying is that Carroll is more all rounded. But this can also be looked at as jack of all trades and master of none. You are also implying that Andy Carroll can be developed to become a much better striker/ more all rounded than Owen. There are some things that come to you naturally which cannot be coached no matter how much time you spend on him and how many times you tell him to do. Take Owen for example, the first thing people notice is his blistering pace. But his best asset was not really his pace. It was anticipation, coolness in front of goal, and an almost methodical way of goal scoring. That's why after his hamstring injury when he didn't have that much pace anymore he continued to find the back of the net. He made use of the off side trap to his advantage. These are all natural abilities that a striker needs to have. The coaches worked on his left foot and header to make him even more lethal. These are techniques which can be developed in a player. But his natural striker's ability was there in the beginning. I don't agree that Andy Carroll is much more complete than Owen, far from it. But I would say that he is physically more complete. However, that doesn't make him a more complete forward. If he doesn't have the instinct of a striker, he doesn't have it. Take Fowler for example, his goalscoring is pure instinct. He knows where the goal is without needing to look up. That's why people call him the most natural finisher in the game. This can never ever be developed into a player. He just has it or he has not.

And also some who are critical of Carroll do not necessarily think that he is a prolific striker. The problem some of us have is that with that amount of money we could have gotten ourselves a prolific scorer. It was very obvious that we needed a main goal scorer and Andy is not one. So why pay 35 million?

[RedAnt]

Fernando Torres aka Judas last night anticipated the clearance from his team, stayed on side by staying in his own half, brought down the ball neatly with a feather touch, ran half length of the field, rounded the keeper and cooly slotted in the goal that put the nail in the coffin for Barca. That's what leading the line is all about. If the opposition has a lapse, you need to punish them. I very much doubt that Andy has the skills, the awareness and the composure to this if he was given the same opportunity...

Yeah, but this same Fernando Torres aka Judas also anticipated a big money move to Chelsea and left us with a day to sign a replacement. I think Andy's one major problem was being given the number 9. This left the likes of D_C and Boxscarf and co (Football Manager types I expect) to believe that we had a new Fowler/Owen/Rush/Torres. He's not a playmaking number 10, nor is he a prolific, goalscoring number 9. The fact is that the number 9 on the back of a football shirt dosen't guarantee goals. The old number 9 and 10 strike pairing is outdated. The goal poaching striker is from the olden days too. Modern forwards come under a number of categegories, and whilst there may be one or two "classical" goalpoachers around, they're a very rare and dieing breed.

Let's take two examples of striker to illustrate how things have changed. Michael Owen and Gary Lineker.

Lineker could do ONE thing and that was PUT THE BALL IN THE NET. He openly admits to having no real footballing skill. He just new where to be and when to be there and would invariably stick the ball into the net. That was all he needed to do. The rest of the team did the work. This of course was years ago....

Now take Owen...he stormed in, scoring on his debut, then went on to score many, many more goals. He had more to his game than Lineker did but IT STILL WASN'T ENOUGH for modern day football. The coaches worked hour after hour after freaking hour to sharpen up his left foot. Then they worked week after week after freaking week to add some heading to his game. That's how modern football is. We could have left Owen to be the wonderful goalscorer that he was, but that's outdated. A forward needs much more these days.

Now take Owen and Carroll and compare their styles, techniques and skills. Andy Carroll is technically a much more complete forward. Owen scores more, sure, but he can't hold the ball like Carroll. Owen's pace terrified defenders, but in a physical battle the lil man had no hope. Carroll on the other hand is like a bulldozer.

I've got bored of typing now, but keep comparing. If you add up the points, weigh up the pro's and con's of each player, I think we may find that Andy Carroll is a much, MUCH more complete forward than Owen was at that age.

To summarise, yes, I believe we need a prolific goalscorer. But to sell Andy Carroll and allow some other club to reap the fruits of our impatience and rash judgement would be complete foolishness.

Andy Carroll can have a great future as part of our squad. I just wish he'd never been given the number 9 and that we'd never paid such a hefty fee (though we had NO choice..other than to simply not sign anyone, and what would everyone have said about that?). It deludes the more naive supporters into thinking he's the next 40 goal a season super striker.

I get where you're coming from generally but I have to say I disagree.

"If you add up the points, weigh up the pro's and con's of each player, I think we may find that Andy Carroll is a much, MUCH more complete forward than Owen was at that age"

What you're saying is that Carroll is more all rounded. But this can also be looked at as jack of all trades and master of none. You are also implying that Andy Carroll can be developed to become a much better striker/ more all rounded than Owen. There are some things that come to you naturally which cannot be coached no matter how much time you spend on him and how many times you tell him to do. Take Owen for example, the first thing people notice is his blistering pace. But his best asset was not really his pace. It was anticipation, coolness in front of goal, and an almost methodical way of goal scoring. That's why after his hamstring injury when he didn't have that much pace anymore he continued to find the back of the net. He made use of the off side trap to his advantage. These are all natural abilities that a striker needs to have. The coaches worked on his left foot and header to make him even more lethal. These are techniques which can be developed in a player. But his natural striker's ability was there in the beginning. I don't agree that Andy Carroll is much more complete than Owen, far from it. But I would say that he is physically more complete. However, that doesn't make him a more complete forward. If he doesn't have the instinct of a striker, he doesn't have it. Take Fowler for example, his goalscoring is pure instinct. He knows where the goal is without needing to look up. That's why people call him the most natural finisher in the game. This can never ever be developed into a player. He just has it or he has not.

And also some who are critical of Carroll do not necessarily think that he is a prolific striker. The problem some of us have is that with that amount of money we could have gotten ourselves a prolific scorer. It was very obvious that we needed a main goal scorer and Andy is not one. So why pay 35 million?

I agree with all you've said, especially about natural talent. But that's my point; Carroll's natural skills aren't those of the stereotypical number 9. Look at D_C's posts. They're largely naive of course, and time and time again she/he complains that we "have no number 9". We do. It's Carroll. He's just not the typical number 9 that people are accustomed to. Seriously, had he been given number 14 for example, there'd certainly be less people on his case, and if he'd cost £10m he'd have even less pressure. If he was our £10m number 14, folk might actually think he was good.

If a player is good or capable of doing his specified job, then to fans of FOOTBALL rather than money shouldn't give two shiny turds how much he cost.

Football! F*ck money.