Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:58 am

The FACTS show Benitez has had more to spend than anyone bar Chelsea and he still can't get it right
By David Maddock

Published 13:08 19/01/10

Amid all the frenzy engulfing Liverpool at the moment - some would say feeding frenzy - it is easy to lose sight of the facts.

I know, I know, a tired old metaphor, and an even more tiresome joke, but an appropriate one under the circumstances. Because the facts of Rafael Benitez's reign have become blurred in the claims and counter-claims of his supporters and detractors as crisis swamps him.

For instance, it has become almost universally accepted that he has had no money to spend as manager of Liverpool. But is that a fact? Hardly. In fact, in his time on Merseyside, he is the second highest spending manager in the Premier League.

Don't believe me? Well, these ARE the facts. In total, Rafael Benitez has spent a round figure of £255million on players in five and a half years. He has raised £133million in player sales, leaving a net spend of £122million. And just to spell it out for you, that equates to an annual summer budget of £20million NET, give or take the odd fiver.

Still don't believe me? Well these figures are available through the Premier League, and can be verified easily. The Times, in fact, did an investigation on the spending of the top Premier League clubs, and came up with the exact same figures just a few months ago.

They also found that Chelsea are the highest spenders over the past six seasons, with a NET total of £186million. When I talk about net, by the way, I mean - basically - a loss. So Chelsea's dealings in the transfer market have brought them a loss of £186million in the time Benitez has been at Anfield.

Arsenal's dealings over the same period have actually brought them a £27million PROFIT. That means, during the time Rafael Benitez has been spending - or losing - £20million a year in English football, Arsene Wenger has been making a profit of £4.5million a year. I'll say that again, for the incredulous amongst you. Over the past six seasons, Arsene Wenger has not only not spent any money, he's made his club almost 5million quid a year....which probably means he's working for free.

Which brings us neatly onto Manchester United. During the past six seasons, the Old Trafford club have made a loss in the transfer market of £27million, which works out to £4.5million a year. Not bad a for a side who their fans claim to be the biggest in the world.

Now of course, the zealous amongst you will point out that United's figures are skewed horribly by the summer transfer or Cristiano Ronaldo for a fee that could eventually rise to £80million, without spending even a fraction of that money in search of a replacement.

And it's true, it does distort the figures horribly. And in the process puts paid to the second myth being bandied about by Liverpool. Namely, that that were left behind by their rivals in the summer, who brought in new, important players, while at Anfield they stood completely still, to ultimately be forced backwards.

The fact is, that even if you add the Ronaldo £80million to United's spending, then Sir Alex Ferguson still hasn't lost as much over the past six seasons as Liverpool have. A rough calculation tells us that they've spent £15million less (net) over the same period.

They also bought in only Antonio Valencia and Gabriel Obertan in the summer, plus Michael Owen on a free, while losing not only Ronaldo, but Carlos Tevez too.

Look at Chelsea, and they brought in just two players for a fee - Yuri Zhirkov and Daniel Sturridge. Arsenal did even less business, they bought only Thomas Vermaelen while selling both Emmanuel Adebayor and Kolo Toure.

What did Liverpool do? Yes, they sold Xabi Alonso for £30million, and replaced him with Alberto Aquilani, a snip at £20million. Oh, and they also paid £18million for Glen Johnson, and £2million for Sotiros Kyrgiakos. Meaning that of all the big four clubs, they were the ones who spent the most money, and brought the most players in for a fee.

Which is a very long winded way of saying that it's nonsense to say Benitez has not been supported in the transfer market. He's had more money than all his rivals bar Chelsea, and has brought in far more players than any of the other big four clubs.

Many will say he needed to, of course, claiming that Liverpool were on their knees when he arrived. And it's certainly true that in the dying days of the Houllier regime at Anfield, things weren't exactly healthy. But - and again this is a fact - Benitez still inherited a squad that finished FOURTH in the league. Not eighth, not 18th, but fourth. And a squad that had qualified for the Champions' League competition he won in his first season.

So it is is utter nonsense to say that Liverpool are a club that is in crisis from head to toe, because they have no money and are on the verge of collapse. It simply isn't true. They have found the money to back the manager to the tune of £20million a year, and will no doubt continue to do the same in the future.

They have just signed a new sponsorship deal thought to be the richest in football history, and have also put in place lucrative further sponsorship that will help fill the coffers.

They may have clueless American owners, but they have an astute, talented financial team that is confident of being able to make the club a self-sufficient entity, meaning that they can raise enough profits to pay off any debts and still have funds left over the buy top class players, and pay top class wages. And Manchester United prove that model in eminently workable when you are a world renowned club....as Liverpool most patently are.

My esteemed colleague Guillem Balague has suggested on these pages that the problem for Liverpool is the expectation, because they are simply not even a top six club any more, but have top four expectation. His argument goes that they should start thinking the current seventh place is an ACHIEVEMENT, not a failure.

But let us look at the facts again. History tells us that Premier League position is directly correlated to wages spent by clubs. And the clubs with the biggest wage bills are as follows: Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool.

Manchester City will soon join that elite with a wage bill that equals Chelsea, but not until next season. They will soon have spent more than the other clubs, but not until next year. So this year, the expectation for Liverpool should be a top four finish. At the very least. And on last season's evidence and summer activity, really it should have been first place.

Why then, should we feel that eighth place is an achievement? Liverpool have spent more than all but one club in the Premier League, and have a wage bill higher than all but three clubs in the Premier League. Why should those clubs have top four ambitions, but Liverpool not?

So if the finances are not the problem at Liverpool - and for all the bluster - they most clearly are not, then what is? Cut away all the bulls**t, all the hype and all the excuses, and the answer is simple. The problem is on the pitch.

Last season, Liverpool's squad were good enough to finish second in the league. In the summer, the team that finished above them lost two of their best players, and didn't replace them. Arsenal lost two of their best players, and didn't replace them. Chelsea bought one squad player who has hardly played.

And Liverpool? They lost an important player, but replaced him with two players who effectively cost £20million each. They are both on massive wages, so can be regarded as the sort of signings to help win the league, not merely squad players.

Arsenal and Chelsea finished below Liverpool in the league, did nothing in the transfer market in the summer, and are still in the top four this season. United are visibly and painfully weakened from last season, but are still in the top four.

Liverpool on the other hand, are if anything strengthened on last season. And yet they are eighth. Why? Not because of financial meltdown, not because of their owners, but because they have had a disastrous season on the pitch with a squad that should be doing much, much better.

Benitez admitted as much last week, after the defeat to Reading. He explained that they were disrupted by injuries early on, and have never recovered their confidence. And he asked the question, are you not allowed one bad season any more?

It is a good question, and a fair one. Manchester United had a bad season under Ferguson a few years ago, when they went out of the Champions' League at the first hurdle. Arsenal did that under Wenger too. It happens.

But in both of those campaigns, the respective teams still went on to challenge in the Premier League, and finish comfortably in the top four. Liverpool are seventh, currently 14 points off the top of the table.

There is also another question Benitez must answer. In his time at Liverpool, the Spaniard has brought in more than 90 players in total (which admittedly includes players he has signed essentially for the academy), and more than 50 for a significant fee.

Guillem Balague in these columns suggests that is his style, that he is the sort of manager who needs huge player turnover to keep his squad fresh and still on message. He also hinted that for Benitez to continue, he must be allowed to get rid of some senior players who are no longer on message and playing well.

Which, I believe, strikes at the heart of the matter. For me, Liverpool are where they are this season because they had damaging injuries at the start of the campaign, which led to a lack of confidence which in turn spread doubt amongst the squad, and led some very important players to go 'off message'.

Benitez may well have to sell those players to get back on track, but the big question is, will he be allowed to, because they could be some big names that are very popular with the fans?

He will not be sacked now, no matter the clamour for his departure. Liverpool are a club who will do things in a dignified manner, and that means making a decision at the end of the season.

And when that moment comes, they have a decision to make, even if Benitez turns things around and finishes in the top four, as all the FACTS suggest he must do.

The decision will be, do they allow Benitez to go on spending, to go on with his massive player turnaround, and allow him to get rid of some big, big, name players.? Or do they cut their losses and go for a manager who can motivate a squad - and the star players within it - that should be good enough to challenge for the title right now?

[url=http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/david-maddock/The-FACTS-show-Liverpool-boss-Rafa-Benitez-has-had-more-to-spend-than-anyone-bar-Chelsea-a

nd-he-still-can-t-get-it-right-article293073.html]link[/url]

by **Zidane** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:11 am

s@int wrote:And just to spell it out for you, that equates to an annual summer budget of £20million NET, give or take the odd fiver.

I hear 20m is what we usually make from qualifying for the CL annually.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:13 am

From The Sunday Times October 25, 2009

How Liverpool's transfer spending compares Matthew Fearon
On the eve of this season, Liverpool manager Rafa Bentiez bemoaned his side’s lack of financial power. However, an analysis of the spending habits of the ‘Big Four’ since his appointment in June 2004 shows that the Spaniard has outspent Sir Alex Ferguson by £80m. Furthermore, when money raised through player sales is taken into account, Benitez’ net spending dwarves Ferguson’s by £95m and only Chelsea have spent more on player recruitment during the same five-year period.

Benitez wasted no time in splashing the cash on his arrival on Merseyside. In his first season at the club his net spending totalled £31m, including £20m on the misfiring strike partnership of Djibril Cisse and Fernando Morientes. At the same time, Ferguson was making an upfront payment – also of £20m – for Wayne Rooney, who has since confirmed that he was, and still is, the brightest prospect in English football.

With Roman Abramovich a year into his Chelsea spending spree at the time of Benitez’s arrival, only the West London club could match the Spaniard’s outlay. Their most expensive signing that summer was the £24m Didier Drogba but his 102nd goal for the club against Blackburn yesterday suggests much better value for money than the £6.3m Benitez paid for Morientes, who managed just 12 goals throughout his Liverpool career.

While Benitez was spending £41m on eight players in that first season – none of whom are still at the club – Arsene Wenger was splashing out £2m on four players, two of whom – Manuel Almunia and Emmanuel Eboue – have become crucial members of the Arsenal side, while a third, Vito Mannone has burst on to the scene this season. In fact, since June 2004, Wenger has earned his club £27m from his transfer dealings and has spent £154m less that Benitez.

The extent of the Liverpool manager’s spending comes as a surprise, his method of recruitment offers up a telling explanation; as the figures show he likes to spread his wealth thinly. Since joining the club, he has signed 23 players for less than £3m, while during the same period Ferguson has brought in just seven bargain-basement players, the last of whom was the out-of-contract Michael Owen – the first player Benitez allowed to leave the Anfield.

It is worth noting that the world record fee of £80m Manchester United received from Real Madrid for Cristiano Ronaldo this summer undoubtedly massages their 2004-09 net spending figure, although such largesse did not stop Florentino Pérez boosting Liverpool’s coffers by £30m in return for the services of Xabi Alonso.

While in the six months before Bentiez’s appointment, Ferguson spent £26.7m on Louis Saha, Alan Smith and Gabriel Heinze, he was at least dipping into a £40m war chest funded by the sales of David Beckham to Real Madrid for £25m and Juan Sebastian Veron to Chelsea for £15m. Even taking Ferguson’s pre-Benitez spending into account, the Liverpool boss still comfortably outspends the Scot.

In conclusion, he could only have been referring to Chelsea when he said on the eve of this season that: “It is always difficult to compete in the Premier League with clubs who have more money.” And even then, Benitez’s net spending over the last five transfer windows eclipses even that of Abramovich. Perhaps now it is time he turned to some more imaginative excuses.

Liverpool total net spend 2004-09: £122m loss

2004-05 Net spend: £31.05m loss in total
Players in + fee: Djibril Cisse £14m, Josemi £2m, Luis Garcia £6m, Xabi Alonso £10.5m, Antonio Nunez £2m, Mauricio Pellegrino free, Fernando Morientes £6.3m, Scott Carson £0.75m.
Players out + fee: Markus Babbel free, Danny Murphy £2.5m, Michael Owen £8m, Stephane Henchoz free.

2005-06 Net spend: £23.4m loss
Players in + fee: Pepe Reina (£6m), Mark Gonzalez (£4.5m), Boudewijn Zenden (free), Antonio Barragan (£0.25m), Mohamed Sissoko (£5.6m), Peter Crouch (£7m), Godwin Antwin (£0.5m), Jack Hobbs (£0.75m), Paul Anderson (£1m), Jan Kromkamp (Swap), David Martin (£0.5m), Daniel Agger (£5.8m), Robbie Fowler (Free).
Players out + fee: Vladimir Smicer (Free), El Hadji Diouf (£1.5m), Mauricio Pellegrino (Free), Gregory Vignal (Free), Antonio Nunez (£0.5m), Ritchie Partridge (Free), Milan Baros (£6.5m), Josemi (Swap).

2006-07 Net spend: £32.85m loss
Players in + fee: Craig Bellamy £6m, Gabriel Paletta £2m, Fabio Aurelio Free, Jermaine Pennant £6.7m, Dirk Kuyt £9m, Nabil El Zhar £1m, Alvaro Arbeloa £2.6m, Francisco Manuel Duran Free, Javier Mascherano £18.6m.
Players out + fee: Fernando Morientes £3m, Bruno Cheyrou (£0.5m), Dietmar Hamann (£0.4m), Carl Medjani Free, Antonio Barragan (£0.7m), Djimi Traore (£2m),Neil Mellor £1m, Jan Kromkamp £1.7m, Chris Kirkland £2m, Darren Potter £0.25m, Stephen Warnock £1.5m, Salif Diao Free.

2007-08 Net spend: £23.3m loss
Players in + fee: Andriy Voronin Free, Krisztian Nemeth £0.5m, Charles-Hubert Itandje £3.5m, Fernando Torres £26.5m, Yossi Benayoun £5m,Ryan Babel £11.5m, Emiliano Insua £2m*, Damien Plessis (£1m), Martin Skrtel (£6m).
Players out + fee: Florent Sinoma Pongolle £2.7m, Danny O’Donnell £0.1m, Luis Garcia £4m, Boudewijn Zenden Free, Djibril Cisse £6m, Craig Bellamy £7.5m, Mark Gonzalez £4.2m, Jerzey Dudek Free, Robbie Fowler Free, Mohamed Sissoko £8.2m, Gabriel Paletta Swap.

2008-09 Net spend: £6.45m loss
Players in + fee: Philipp Degen free, Andrea Dossena £7m, Diego Cavalieri £3.5m, David Ngog £1.5m, Robbie Keane £20.3m, Vitor Flora Free, Albert Riera £8m.
Players out + fee: Anthony Le Tallec £1.1m, Harry Kewell Free, Peter Crouch £9m, Danny Guthrie £2.5m, Scott Carson £3.25m, John Arne Riise £4m, Steve Finnan £2m, Robbie Keane £12m.

2009-10 Net spend: £4.95m loss
Players in + fee: Glen Johnson £18m, Alberto Aquilani £20m, Sotiros Kyrgiakos £2m.
Players out + fee: Paul Anderson £0.25m, Sebastian Leto £1.3m, Sami Hyypia Free, Jermaine Pennant Free, Alvaro Arbeloa £3.5m, Xabi Alonso £30m.

Manchester United total net spend 2004-2009: £27m loss

2004-05 Net spend: £20.3m loss
Players in + fee: Wayne Rooney £26m, Florent N’Galula Nominal
Players out + fee: Nicky Butt £2.5m, Luke Chadwick Free, Diego Forlan £2m, Bojan Djordic Free, Eric Djemba-Djemba £1.2m

2005-06 Net spend: £13.5m loss
Players in + fee: Edwin van der Sar £2m, Ji-Sung Park £4m, Ben Foster £1m, Nemanja Vidic £7m, Patrice Evra £5.5m
Players out + fee: Roy Carroll Free, Ricardo Free, Phil Neville £3.5m, Kleberson £2.5m, Roy Keane Free

2006-07 Net spend: £2.9m loss
Players in + fee: Michael Carrick £18.6m
Players out + fee: Jonathan Spector £0.5m, Sylvan Ebanks-Blake £0.2m, Quinton Fortune Free, Ruud van Nistelrooy £11m, Liam Miller Free, David Jones £1m, Tim Howard £3m

2007-08 Net spend: £24m loss
Players in + fee: Owen Hargreaves £17m, Anderson £17m, Tomas Kuszczak £2.1m, Nani £17m, Carlos Tevez Loan, Manucho Nominal
Players out + fee: Kieran Richardson £5.5m, Giuseppe Rossi £6.6m, Alan Smith £6m, Gabriel Heinze £8m, Ryan Shawcross£1m, Phil Bardsley £2m

2008-09 Net spend: £33.1m loss
Players in + fee: Dimitar Berbatov £30.75m, Zoran Tosic £9m, Ritchie de Laet £0.1m
Players out + fee: Gerard Pique £5m, Chris Eagles £1m, Mikael Silvestre £0.75m, Loius Saha Nominal

2009-10 Net spend: £66.5m profit
Players in + fee: Antonio Valencia £16m, Gabriel Obertan £3m, Michael Owen Free
Players out + fee: Cristiano Ronaldo £80m, Lee Martin £2m, Fraizer Campbell £3.5m, Carlos Tevez Released, Manucho Nominal

Chelsea total net spend 2004-09: £186m loss

2004-05 Net spend: £87.6m loss
Players in + fee: Arjen Robben £12m, Paulo Ferreira £13.2m, Alex £5m, Mateja Kezman £5m, Tiago £8m, Didier Drogba £24m, Ricardo Carvalho £20.6m, Jiri Jarosik £3m
Players out + fee: Jimmy-Floyd Hasselbaink Free, Mario Melchiot Free, Jesper Gronkjaer £2.2m, Boudewijn Zenden Free, Neil Sullivan Free, Celestine Babyaro £1m, Marco Ambrosio Free, Adrian Mutu Free

2005-06 Net spend: £32.1m loss
Players in + fee: Asier del Horno £8m, Lassana Diarra £1m, Shaun Wright-Phillips £21m, Michael Essien £24.4m
Players out + fee: Mikael Forssell £3m, Scott Parker £6.5m, Juan Sebastian Veron Undisc, Mateja Kezman £5.3m, Tiago £6.5m, Alexei Smertin £1m

2006-07 Net spend: £37.7m loss
Players in + fee: Michael Ballack Free, Salomon Kalou £8m, Andrei Shevchenko £30m, John Obi-Mikel £16m, Khalid Boulahrouz £7m, Ashley Cole £5m (swap)
Players out + fee: Eidur Gudjohnson £8m, Jiri Jarosik £0.5m, Carlton Cole £4m, Damien Duff £5m, Asier del Horno £4.8m, Hernan Crespo Free, Willian Gallas Swap, Robert Huth £6m

2007-08 Net spend: £13.5m loss
Players in + fee: Steve Sidwell Free, Claudio Pizarro Free, Tal Ben-Haim Free, Florent Malouda £13.5m, Juliano Belletti £3m, Nicolas Anelka £15m, Branislav Ivanovic £9m, Franco di Santo £3m
Players out + fee: Arjen Robben £24m, Glen Johnson £4m, Lassana Diarra £2m

2008-09 Net spend: £6.8m profit
Players in + fee: Jose Bosingwa £16.2m, Deco £8m.
Players out + fee: Steve Sidwell £5m, Claude Makelele Free, Tal Ben-Haim £5m, Shaun Wright-Phillips £9m, Wayne Bridge £12m, Carlo Cudicini Free.

2009-10 Net spend: £22m loss
Players in + fee: Mineiro Undisc, Gokham Tore Undisc, Yuri Zhirkov £18m, Daniel Sturridge £5m (tribunal)
Players out + fee: Ben Sahar £1m, Frank Nouble Undisc, Andrei Shevchenko Free.

Arsenal Net spend 2004-09: £27m profit

2004-05 Net spend: £2.55m profit
Players in + fee: Arturo Lupoli £0.2m, Manuel Almunia £0.5m, Vito Mannone £0.35m, Emmanuel Eboue £1m.
Players out + fee: Giovanni van Bronckhorst £2m, Martin Keown Free, Ray Parlour Free, Kanu Free, Francis Jeffers £2.6m, Igor Stepanovs nominal, Sylvain Wiltord Free, Rami Shabaan Free.

2005-06 Net spend: £5m loss
Players in + fee: Nicklas Bendtner undisc, Alexander Hleb £11.2m, Vassiriki Diaby £2m, Emmanuel Adebayor £7m, Theo Walcott £5m, Mart Poom undisc
Players out + fee: Stuart Taylor Undisc, Jermaine Pennant £3m, Patrick Viera £13.7m, David Bentley £3m

2006-07 Net spend: £0.7m loss
Players in + fee: Tomas Rosicky £6.8m, Fran Merida Free, Alexandre Song £1m, William Gallas Swap, Denilson £3.4m.
Players out + fee: Robert Pires Free, Sol Campbell Free, Pascal Cygan £2m, Ashley Cole £5m (swap), Anthony Stokes £2m, Lauren £0.5m, Sebastian Larsson £1m

2007-08 Net spend: £19.9m profit
Players in + fee: Lukasz Fabianski £2m, Eduardo £7.5m, Bakari Sagna £6m, Lassana Diarra £2m, Luke Freeman £0.2m Players out + fee: Fabrice Muamba £4m, Jeremie Alaidiere £2m, Thierry Henry £16.1m, Arturo Lupoli Free, Fredrik Ljungberg£3m, Jose Antonio Reyes £6m, Matthew Connolly £1m, Lassana Diarra £5.5m

2008-09 Net spend:£20.75m loss
Players in + fee: Aaron Ramsey £5m, Samir Nasri £15.8m, Amaury Bischoff Free, Mikael Silvestre £0.75m, Andrei Arshavin£15m
Players out + fee: Jens Lehmann Free, Mathieu Flamini Free, Alexander Hleb £11.8m, Gilberto Silva £1m, Justin Hoyte £3m

2009-10 Net spend: £31m profit
Players in + fee: Thomas Vermaelen £10m
Players out + fee , Emmanuel Adebayor £25m, Kolo Toure £16m.LINK

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:14 am

Zidane wrote:
s@int wrote:And just to spell it out for you, that equates to an annual summer budget of £20million NET, give or take the odd fiver.

I hear 20m is what we usually make from qualifying for the CL annually.

Yeah and the mancs NEVER qualify ?

by **Zidane** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:21 am

s@int wrote:
Zidane wrote:
s@int wrote:And just to spell it out for you, that equates to an annual summer budget of £20million NET, give or take the odd fiver.

I hear 20m is what we usually make from qualifying for the CL annually.

Yeah and the mancs NEVER qualify ?

Put two and two together and he hasn't ever really been backed in the transfer market contrary to that article, he's just been allowed to spend what he has made from qualification/sales which is what people have said all along. I'm not trying to get into this :censored:

I'm sick and tired of all this nonsense really but these articles are stupid.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:31 am

I agree that arguing over who has spent more is silly. People will go to any lengths to try to prove that its not Rafa's fault, and when one excuse doesn't work they just try another for a while before returning to the same old excuses.

They will condemn and disrespect every player past and present rather than admit that maybe Rafa hasn't been quite the genius they believed he was. Our teams were cr@p our players were rubbish, we were just lucky , seems to me the more money Rafa has spent the less "lucky " we have become and the less trophies we have won.

by **Zidane** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:41 am

s@int wrote:I agree that arguing over who has spent more is silly. People will go to any lengths to try to prove that its not Rafa's fault, and when one excuse doesn't work they just try another for a while before returning to the same old excuses.

They will condemn and disrespect every player past and present rather than admit that maybe Rafa hasn't been quite the genius they believed he was. Our teams were cr@p our players were rubbish, we were just lucky , seems to me the more money Rafa has spent the less "lucky " we have become and the less trophies we have won.

This is the last I'll say on the whole transfer issues.

First of all the money spent issue is skewed depending on who you're talking to/what you're reading. One thing I do know is Man U got a 20m+ player for free which probably wouldn't happen under most normal circumstances(Tevez) and sold Ronaldo for a very very inflated price which also wouldn't happen under normal circumstances, that's 100m that could have an asterisk next to it and can flip the argument in either direction depending on how you want to look at those situations. Just my opinion over all that.

As for Rafa and his transfers I still believe that he is relatively good in the market, our squad, when fit, is still strong and is getting deeper and deeper with every season(imo). The best thing for us is a fresh start, if everyone in the squad can just put this season behind them and move forward I think next year we will be ok, if they let it linger and have bad feelings toward Rafa for this year we may run into more of the same. We have another backup striker coming in who (please god) can perhaps be a suitable backup for Torres/a good addition to our left side. And hopefully we can sell off Riera for a few million and fund some minor addition to the squad. I would much rather not see us sell to buy all over again (apart from Riera) because I feel that adding more decent/quality low priced buys will encourage players to train/work that much harder for their place. Unfortunately these are risky buys so I'm not quite sure what is going to happen really.

As for this season, when I think about it has been mentally and emotionally hard for the players before the season even started. Seeing Xabi sold, seeing Aqua come in injured seemed to boggle the minds of the players. Yes, this was Rafa's fault and although he did not expect Aquilani to be out for so long he made a mistake that has caused immeasurable damage to our season. THIS IS RAFA'S FAULT, HE IS IN LARGE PART THE REASON WE HAVE FAILED TO DO AS WELL AS WE SHOULD HAVE, BUT we also have had several unlucky things happen this season so lets not put every single thing down to Rafa, yeah? He may be the major cause of disruption within the team by buying a player that was injured and has not been able to play as much as he would have liked, but like I said, things just did not go our way this season whatsoever. No Liverpool late goals that I can remember, which has been a mark of our team for several years (not just last season), injuries, beach ball, late goals that cost us CL football, sh!te defending on set pieces that cost us many, many, many points. Yes these are all things that, imo, Rafa had no control over and really shouldn't be held accountable for, and could have been the difference between where we are now and sitting somewhat comfortably in fourth place. If you're going to say Rafa could have fixed our defending to set pieces don't bother. There is absolutely no reason why our CBs should have forgotten how to attack crosses instead of letting them fly through hoping that it hit them in the fecking forehead.

As for next year, the only problem is we are yet to see how players react to this season. If they come back feeling like they have something to prove and still want to repay Rafa for what he has done for them and the fans for their endless support then we will be good to go. If not then more than likely Rafa will have to go, I've constantly feared that he had lost the players, but they always back him so who really knows. I really try to be as even keeled as possible when it comes to this, I'm a bit of an optimist I guess but I try to be fair when it comes to this so don't take this as anti or pro Rafa. I'm all for discussion but some of the heated arguments that never seem to end :censored:

me off.

by **LiverpoolMadman** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:32 am

2009-10 Net spend: £4.95m loss
Players in + fee: Glen Johnson £18m, Alberto Aquilani £20m, Sotiros Kyrgiakos £2m.
Players out + fee: Paul Anderson £0.25m, Sebastian Leto £1.3m, Sami Hyypia Free, Jermaine Pennant Free, Alvaro Arbeloa £3.5m, Xabi Alonso £30m.

What the point buying Alberto Aquilani @ £20m and hardly played him ? This £20m can be use to buy other better players, maybe 1 striker and 1 midfield.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:35 am

We got Mascherano for "free" just the same as Tevez, only we decided we would keep Masch the mancs decided they couldn't afford Tevez. We sold Alonso for a very inflated fee (we were only asking £14- 16 million the season before) Ronaldo was World player of the year...... Alonso wasn't. If we wanted to "beat " the mancs in the transfer table we just needed to sell Torres. Fortunately winning the league is what we are supposed to be trying to achieve not bragging that we have spent less.

I agree that we have a good squad, but its no use having a good squad if the manager can't get the best out of them. Rafa makes too many mistakes, has since he came and I see no reason to expect him to change now.

Crying over money, beachballs , injuries etc just hides the real reasons why we are struggling, we have time and time again FAILED to have a proper pre-season, we play too defensively and and don't get the best out of our players and the team, fixed tactics with no plan "b", going into a season with no genuine back up striker, subs same time every game whether we are winning or losing.......everything else is just a sideshow. Every team has things go wrong, every team has bad luck, injuries, bad refereeing decisions, balls that hit the post etc etc, its the teams that OVERCOME those misfortunes that win and the teams that accept that they are "just unlucky" who fail.

The real question is has Rafa got the best out of this team and got his players playing to their potential. The answer has to be a resounding NO. The team has been a shambles all season, and even in vital games he has shown no willingness to "go for it" but taken our best and most potent goal threats off.

Four years without a trophy, 6th in the league, 18 points off the top, knocked out of the F.A. CUP by Reading failure to reach the knockout stages of the CL and its all because of a beach ball :laugh:

. If you watched that game WE DIDN'T DESERVE TO WIN IT ANYWAY.

You can come up with as many EXCUSES as you wish , but the truth is there you just have a problem accepting it.

I am p!ssed off with people making fecking excuses for a manager that has had six years, £250million and has total control over every level of the club(something even the GREAT Liverpool managers never had) A manager stands or falls by his results, unlucky ..... hard lines your fired, lot of injuries.... tough your fired, players not playing for you.....rough your fired, beachball..... bad luck your fired.

Just shut your eyes , put your hands over your ears and sing Rafa very loud, I am sure that will make everything all right.

by **boodiddy1** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:42 am

boodiddy1 wrote:5th place im afraid. we cant nick 1-0 till end of season. We needed a srtiker and never got onee in jan. We'll lose a couple more yet and will prob draw a couple. We miss nando too much. Just right it off. We have to build again in summer with hopefully new money

Even that dont look likely

by **maguskwt** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:33 am

Figures are way manipulated... since when is Torres transfer £26.5 million? It was £20 million. Aquilani's total value was 20 million Euros, not £20 millions. Probably a manc supporting Journo...if I have time I will look up at these values but unfortunately I don't... And who's gonna bet against Fergie not spending that 80 million from Ronaldo this summer, especially if they don't win the league. Anyway, whatever, like I said you guys deserve a new manager... probably one every 4 years...

by **lakes10** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:50 am

did any of you have Five live on last night, the monday night club. some very good points were made on there about Rafa ......the main one being is that he dont give a :censored:

about the prem ever since he has been here.

thik they start to talk about liverpool from about 8:10
not shore if they still have a link up for it.

by **lakes10** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:55 am

Monday night club

the liverpool stuff starts about 1hour 8mins in

by **Scottbot** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:07 am

maguskwt wrote:Figures are way manipulated... since when is Torres transfer £26.5 million? It was £20 million. Aquilani's total value was 20 million Euros, not £20 millions. Probably a manc supporting Journo...if I have time I will look up at these values but unfortunately I don't... And who's gonna bet against Fergie not spending that 80 million from Ronaldo this summer, especially if they don't win the league. Anyway, whatever, like I said you guys deserve a new manager... probably one every 4 years...

Mags, you're being very flippant about a detailed article that (even if it is a few million off the mark) in many ways, completely debunks your argument. I don't know how you can simply say 'that was probably written by a manc journalist', particularly when the timeonline article arrives at the same conclusions. I would be interested to hear your comments on the article rather than your dismissal of it.

by **Scottbot** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:09 am

Mags, where I struggle in this whole debate, and i'm not gonna use words like pro's and anti's and all that bollo..x coz it does my head in but answer me this. I've watched us play time and time again again this season and thought 'what the fook is he doing', Why have we started with this line-up, it's ridiculous, what's he doing in there? I've lost count of the amount of times i've been watching a game (on my own!) and I'm sat there shouting at the box at the top of my voice "make a sub Rafa, NOW! What are ya doing!?". Now i'm not talking about money available, transfer budgets, owners this or owners that, or even whether Rafa has spent wisely with the money he has. I'm talking about basic and often blatant errors (in my opinion) from the manager with the personnel he has available, with his tactics at the start of the match, with his adjustments during the game and most importantly with the style of football we are playing. SURELY YOU HAVE FELT SOME OF THE SAME THINGS WATHCING FOOTBALL THIS SEASON? I don't fully understand why posters who are fans of the manager seem to feel (for the most part) like they cannot criticize the manager, it's almost as if they are refusing to acknowledge problems that are there for all to see, (facts if you like!) and I think that contributes to many of the rows that happen in this place. We've gone completely stagnant mate, it's the spitting image of Houllier's last season at the club, and while Rafa still has the benefit of the doubt from many fans (it is the Liverpool way after all, I have still sung his name at the games i've been to this year, and will do so again with others around me regardless), I think it is likely his rep will reach the lows of Geds should he have another season at the helm. It feels like he is stubbornly clinging on (much as Houllier did) with no real clue as to how to turn things around. If feels and looks like the players have lost faith and I don't honestly believe that we can bounce back next season with an effort to rival (or get close to) the last time around.

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