Liverpool FC Forum

by **maguskwt** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:06 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
Ben Patrick wrote:
maguskwt wrote:We have lost it barring a miraculous collapse by City which is not gonna happen. I've always thought City was the main threat than Spurs. They just have too many good players. The departure of Robinho actually paved the way for them for more consistency. Spurs like us are too unpredictable and inconsistent. It is disappointing what's happening to the premiership really. How owners with billions of wealth can buy success. Soon all the clubs will be owned by arrabs backed by theor oil money. And once these owners get tired with their play things they will just cast them away. So... Can someone call warren buffet and inquire if he has any interest in owning a certain red English 'soccer club' with lots of tradition and history?

City may be where they are because of money they have spent, but lets be realistic here.
They have hardly ran away with it. We are not in the top 4 this season because we have been a disgrace.
In any normal season we would have still finished comfortably above City and the other teams going for fourth.
So lets not try and pretend its because of arabs and money spent by others why we are not where we should be in the table.

"In any normal season..." you mean in a fantasy season where we don't have any injuries whatsoever and could play the likes of Torres, Gerrard, Benayoun, Riera, Agger, Johnson in every single game?

We are where we are because our squad is not deep enough to cope with injuries, lost of form to key players, etc. etc.

Make as many excuses as you like.

United have had far worse injuries than us.

Our squad is p!ss poor i agree, but the manager you still back has created this squad.

So you're saying Man City won't be where they are in a normal season because of what? Are you saying that they won't be a contender next season for top four? And we won't be where we are now because of what? Is it because we are LFC and so magical that we are always above the likes of City and Spurs and it doesn't matter what kind of squad we have? Squad depth is one of the most important factors in challenging for the league title. In order to do so we need 15-20 million role players in today's market. These are not key players mind you. And this is exactly what the Mancs did 2-3 years back by buying Nani, Anderson, Carrick etc etc. Torres has already said this...

by **Scottbot** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:10 pm

maguskwt wrote:So you're saying Man City won't be where they are in a normal season because of what? Are you saying that they won't be a contender next season for top four? And we won't be where we are now because of what? Is it because we are LFC and so magical that we are always above the likes of City and Spurs and it doesn't matter what kind of squad we have? Squad depth is one of the most important factors in challenging for the league title. In order to do so we need 15-20 million role players in today's market. These are not key players mind you. And this is exactly what the Mancs did 2-3 years back by buying Nani, Anderson, Carrick etc etc. Torres has already said this...

I think he has saying that the City have coughed and spluttered their way into that 4th spot this season and that they have been able to do it because we have coughed and spluttered even more. It's not like they have stepped up and wrestled it away from us. We have been our own worst enemies.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:16 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:Our squad is p!ss poor i agree, but the manager you still back has created this squad.

You know what, I will be supportive of the manager and it doesn't need to be Rafa. As long as he has the equivalent credentials as Rafa and had won us our 5th European Cup and as long as footballing issues are not the only ones plaguing the club. I think that manager deserves the benefit of the doubt... Of course if it's a manager like Mark Hughes or Alex Mcleish I might not have this much patience. And I suspect that if Mourinho were to be struggling similar to Rafa after 6 years in charge, I would still be supportive of him. I'm not sure about you guys...

by **Ben Patrick** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:20 pm

Scottbot wrote:
maguskwt wrote:So you're saying Man City won't be where they are in a normal season because of what? Are you saying that they won't be a contender next season for top four? And we won't be where we are now because of what? Is it because we are LFC and so magical that we are always above the likes of City and Spurs and it doesn't matter what kind of squad we have? Squad depth is one of the most important factors in challenging for the league title. In order to do so we need 15-20 million role players in today's market. These are not key players mind you. And this is exactly what the Mancs did 2-3 years back by buying Nani, Anderson, Carrick etc etc. Torres has already said this...

I think he has saying that the City have coughed and spluttered their way into that 4th spot this season and that they have been able to do it because we have coughed and spluttered even more. It's not like they have stepped up and wrestled it away from us. We have been our own worst enemies.

Thats exactly what i am saying.

We are where we are because we have been awful. City are only above us by default.
They havent stepped up and performed like one of the other sides in the top 4. They have just about crept in there.

And you (maguskwt) can make all the excuses you like about the squad.
The fact is, Rafa built it, so if it is weak then the buck stops with him.

By the way, i am a fan that thinks we have a decent team - far better than what we have seen this season.
I also think we have a manager that has severley hampered our progress by playing players that are not good enough. Persisting with a fomation that only works when Torres is fit and generally not being bold enough all season.

If we change manager and had this exact same squad next season, i am convinced we would fare far better.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:20 pm

Scottbot wrote:
maguskwt wrote:So you're saying Man City won't be where they are in a normal season because of what? Are you saying that they won't be a contender next season for top four? And we won't be where we are now because of what? Is it because we are LFC and so magical that we are always above the likes of City and Spurs and it doesn't matter what kind of squad we have? Squad depth is one of the most important factors in challenging for the league title. In order to do so we need 15-20 million role players in today's market. These are not key players mind you. And this is exactly what the Mancs did 2-3 years back by buying Nani, Anderson, Carrick etc etc. Torres has already said this...

I think he has saying that the City have coughed and spluttered their way into that 4th spot this season and that they have been able to do it because we have coughed and spluttered even more. It's not like they have stepped up and wrestled it away from us. We have been our own worst enemies.

It is all relative Scott... if you say that then the current 3 clubs in hunt for the title now all coughed and spluttered their way to the title. It is the dynamics of this season that the lower clubs are able to beat the top clubs...

by **Owzat** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:21 pm

Scottbot wrote:
maguskwt wrote:So you're saying Man City won't be where they are in a normal season because of what? Are you saying that they won't be a contender next season for top four? And we won't be where we are now because of what? Is it because we are LFC and so magical that we are always above the likes of City and Spurs and it doesn't matter what kind of squad we have? Squad depth is one of the most important factors in challenging for the league title. In order to do so we need 15-20 million role players in today's market. These are not key players mind you. And this is exactly what the Mancs did 2-3 years back by buying Nani, Anderson, Carrick etc etc. Torres has already said this...

I think he has saying that the City have coughed and spluttered their way into that 4th spot this season and that they have been able to do it because we have coughed and spluttered even more. It's not like they have stepped up and wrestled it away from us. We have been our own worst enemies.

It isn't so much a question of what citeh have done, it is a set of poor results including draws at home to brum and Fulham, an away loss at pompey and a handful of other poor results such as away draws at Blackburn and Wolves.

Says it all that this is one of our worst points tallies after 34 games of a Premiership season and compares with his first season in charge when the excuse was not enough of the players were his.

by **Scottbot** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:23 pm

maguskwt wrote:
Ben Patrick wrote:Our squad is p!ss poor i agree, but the manager you still back has created this squad.

You know what, I will be supportive of the manager and it doesn't need to be Rafa. As long as he has the equivalent credentials as Rafa and had won us our 5th European Cup and as long as footballing issues are not the only ones plaguing the club. I think that manager deserves the benefit of the doubt... Of course if it's a manager like Mark Hughes or Alex Mcleish I might not have this much patience. And I suspect that if Mourinho were to be struggling similar to Rafa after 6 years in charge, I would still be supportive of him. I'm not sure about you guys...

Mate, your supportive stance is admirable in many ways, and it is a tough job you've taken (supporting the manager in this place!) on, looking at the season the club are having. But some fans/pundits have claimed that 'Rafa is still living off of Istanbul' and your comments about supporting no matter what 'because he delivered number 5' kinda confirm that for me.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:23 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:If we change manager and had this exact same squad next season, i am convinced we would fare far better.

Of course you can have your own view point just as anybody else :;):

by **Ben Patrick** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:31 pm

maguskwt wrote:
Ben Patrick wrote:If we change manager and had this exact same squad next season, i am convinced we would fare far better.

Of course you can have your own view point just as anybody else

Do you feel that Rafa has got the best out of the players at his disposal this season ?

Or are we where we should be as his hands are tied financially etc etc etc ?

by **maguskwt** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:36 pm

Scottbot wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
Ben Patrick wrote:Our squad is p!ss poor i agree, but the manager you still back has created this squad.

You know what, I will be supportive of the manager and it doesn't need to be Rafa. As long as he has the equivalent credentials as Rafa and had won us our 5th European Cup and as long as footballing issues are not the only ones plaguing the club. I think that manager deserves the benefit of the doubt... Of course if it's a manager like Mark Hughes or Alex Mcleish I might not have this much patience. And I suspect that if Mourinho were to be struggling similar to Rafa after 6 years in charge, I would still be supportive of him. I'm not sure about you guys...

Mate, your supportive stance is admirable in many ways, and it is a tough job you've taken (supporting the manager in this place!) on, looking at the season the club are having. But some fans/pundits have claimed that 'Rafa is still living off of Istanbul' and your comments about supporting no matter what 'because he delivered number 5' kinda confirm that for me.

Well Scott, truth be told there are times I think that Rafa is probably not the right manager for us with the situation we are in now. The fact is that I just can't see a suitable replacement. The most suitable type of managers when we are so skint are Arsene Wenger and Guus Hiddink. They are obviously not going to be available. I can't even realsitically see Mourinho doing better in our current situation. He will whine and moan under our current ownership and would probably not even last 6 months.

by **Owzat** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:38 pm

You'll never be able to prove the claim even if it was true and happened. Why? Because the new manager will buy and sell players, there will be claims about injuries and people talking as if we've been decimated by injuries when it was principally a bog-standard season with Torres and Gerrard missing games but don't they usually? And you expect some injuries, which key player has been out all season? Or indeed which key player has missed more than half the season?

by **Sir Roger** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:43 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:
Scottbot wrote:
maguskwt wrote:So you're saying Man City won't be where they are in a normal season because of what? Are you saying that they won't be a contender next season for top four? And we won't be where we are now because of what? Is it because we are LFC and so magical that we are always above the likes of City and Spurs and it doesn't matter what kind of squad we have? Squad depth is one of the most important factors in challenging for the league title. In order to do so we need 15-20 million role players in today's market. These are not key players mind you. And this is exactly what the Mancs did 2-3 years back by buying Nani, Anderson, Carrick etc etc. Torres has already said this...

I think he has saying that the City have coughed and spluttered their way into that 4th spot this season and that they have been able to do it because we have coughed and spluttered even more. It's not like they have stepped up and wrestled it away from us. We have been our own worst enemies.

Thats exactly what i am saying.

We are where we are because we have been awful. City are only above us by default.
They havent stepped up and performed like one of the other sides in the top 4. They have just about crept in there.

And you (maguskwt) can make all the excuses you like about the squad.
The fact is, Rafa built it, so if it is weak then the buck stops with him.

By the way, i am a fan that thinks we have a decent team - far better than what we have seen this season.
I also think we have a manager that has severley hampered our progress by playing players that are not good enough. Persisting with a fomation that only works when Torres is fit and generally not being bold enough all season.

If we change manager and had this exact same squad next season, i am convinced we would fare far better.

Right on the money there.
Those players have proven they can beat anyone. They have also proven they can be beat by anyone as well.
Rafa has been nothing short of woeful this season the way hes set the team up to fail. Fourth place will not be lost at west ham, chelseas or hull. It will have been lost from the first game to the last through Rafa stubborness and inability to learn from his mistakes. This must go down as one of the most frustrating seasons in all my years of watching LFC. We have had worse teams who have achieved more. I'm so pi'ssed off with the manager

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:46 pm

The problem of not finishing fourth this year is of a bigger magnitude than a lot of you lot on here think. It's not just the cost of missing out on CL football next season, it's the possibility of being out of CL football for years to come.

Assuming City make fourth this will cue up months of overspending by City to build a CL winning squad. United and Chelsea will maintain a strong squad and not fall outside of the top 4. Arsenal are at risk if they don't spend, but with them it is choice not financial constraints.

By this time next year we will have the 5 strongest squad in the league and will be facing another year in the Europa. We've had the chance to cement our future and missed it.

by **Ben Patrick** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:52 pm

Its not just missing out on the top 4 and the champions league thats bothering me so much.
Its the way the manager appears to have just surrended. I have never known that of any Liverpool side, but him taking Torres off in the must win game at Birmingham showed where his priorities lay.
Shocking decision and the fans who paid good money to go to St andrews should have been refunded.
We have a young lad upfront as our no2 striker that wouldnt get into 3 quarters of the teams in the premiership, yet he is our second striker ?
Its a shocking situation but people still defend him.
I said ages ago that we should have done all we could in January to bring a striker in, Gudjohnson went for free.
But Rafa goes and signs another wide player

I genuinely cant work him out. And the worst thing is, it appears the players cant either.

by **stmichael** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:57 pm

As far as I was concerned, our chances of getting 4th were over even before yesterdays game. Now it's definitely over so I hope City destroy United in the Derby next week.

The only question now is whether we'll be in Europe at all if we don't win the UEFA Cup.

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