Liverpool FC Forum

by **Igor Zidane** » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:30 am

LFC2007 wrote:I don't know. Any (or that much) weaker than Lucas or Aquilani?

I think we could have used him, if not from the start then certainly later in the game.

Lucas played a blinder against stoke .

by **made in UK** » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:54 am

made in UK wrote:That would be too logical wouldn't it? (Bringing in Pacheco)

cough cough whistle whistle :oh:

by **LFC2007** » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:56 am

Igor Zidane wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:I don't know. Any (or that much) weaker than Lucas or Aquilani?

I think we could have used him, if not from the start then certainly later in the game.

Lucas played a blinder against stoke .

I know mate. I was just saying that if Lucas - who isn't the biggest - can handle the physicality of Stoke, surely Pacheco could have had a few minutes at least.

by **made in UK** » Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:11 am

john craig wrote:I don't think Stoke away was a game to play Pacheco in at this stage. Physically he'd have struggled and defensively we'd have been weaker for it.

He has to start getting game time at home though if this kid is going to develop into the player we think he can. Not necessarily from the start but certainly from the bench.

I'm not buying the 'he isn't physically strong enough' notion to play against Stoke or any other pub house team.

Luis Garcia was a feather weight when it came to physical strength but that didn't stop him from playing, scoring goals, doing tricks and wasting the ball

.

There are many lightweight players, Owen too who have handled the rough and tumble of the Premiership. To say Pacheco would of struggled physically is as almost as premature as one of Mick's 'I know its early but..' threads.

As for being weaker defensively we did start with eight defensive minded players against Stoke. So if anything we could of used a more attacking minded player to do something in the final third with.

by **Owzat** » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:18 am

made in UK wrote:As for being weaker defensively we did start with eight defensive minded players against Stoke. So if anything we could of used a more attacking minded player to do something in the final third with.

Precisely. Typical Rafa, more worried about what THEY might do, no real ideas how we would make them worry about US. We still needed to retain possession which is easier with natural attacking players, not full-backs, CBs and DMs, and create.

There's no reason Pacheco couldn't have done well against Stoke, they set their team up for their Super High Intensity Throw Empowered football, but that doesn't mean they're great at stopping skillful players. Some will say 'fight fire with fire', I say chuck a f in bucket of water over the fire and put it out. If you have a better set of players, why handicap yourself by picking players to counter the opposition instead of your best XI and beating them because you're the better side?!?!?!? If we want to keep a clean sheet do we play 10 defenders?!? If we want to score goals do we play 10 strikers?!?! No, we play our best and best balanced side to cope with them in defence and cause their defence problems.

If we can't play Pacheco against a side promoted only a season and a half ago, who can we play him against?!? There's no games we're nailed on certs to win, we've already lost to the bottom side and struggled against others, it won't be any easier without Benayoun, Torres or Gerrard. We've still got to play spudz, Chelsea, Arsenal, Citeh and the mancs again having picked up just four points in the reverse fixtures.

I'd honestly now be surprised if he starts more than 2-3 games this season, Rafa just isn't that adventurous when it comes to giving youth a chance. Instead of giving a kid a chance he'd rather do something like play Carra at RB

by **Ben Patrick** » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:37 pm

You have to at some stage if your a young player look at things and think, when if ever will i get a chance ?

That game Saturday, people can go on all they like about physical stoke blah blah blah.
Does that mean if other sides play them they automatically take out their smaller players ?
Does it sh!te.

I bet if spurs played them Lennon would play.
With the injuries we had that was an opportunity to give the lad a chance. If things didnt go well he could have said...what option did i have ?
But no we moved Dirk inside and played 2 full backs in our midfield wide positions with essentially 2 holding midfielders.

He should have also came on against Reading the other night for Aquiliani when the italian was really struggling after about 70 minutes.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:57 pm

Arsenal had Eastmond in against Bolton and he seemed to play well in a team not renowned for its physicality....against a Bolton team that is.

by **Octsky** » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:58 pm

Owzat wrote:I'd honestly now be surprised if he starts more than 2-3 games this season, Rafa just isn't that adventurous when it comes to giving youth a chance. Instead of giving a kid a chance he'd rather do something like play Carra at RB

Exactly what i feel when i started noticing we have produce zero outstanding youth players a few season back.

I will like to see someone like Daglish, Hinddink or MON managing the club and giving the youth players are real chance. Even a decade under Rafa we wont produce a single star.

by **JC_81** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:35 am

made in UK wrote:
john craig wrote:I don't think Stoke away was a game to play Pacheco in at this stage. Physically he'd have struggled and defensively we'd have been weaker for it.

He has to start getting game time at home though if this kid is going to develop into the player we think he can. Not necessarily from the start but certainly from the bench.

I'm not buying the 'he isn't physically strong enough' notion to play against Stoke or any other pub house team.

Luis Garcia was a feather weight when it came to physical strength but that didn't stop him from playing, scoring goals, doing tricks and wasting the ball .

There are many lightweight players, Owen too who have handled the rough and tumble of the Premiership. To say Pacheco would of struggled physically is as almost as premature as one of Mick's 'I know its early but..' threads.

As for being weaker defensively we did start with eight defensive minded players against Stoke. So if anything we could of used a more attacking minded player to do something in the final third with.

Personally I wouldn't call Stoke a pub team mate, they don't play pretty but they're very physical and play to their strengths - much like the Wimbledon of old and Bolton under Fat Sam.

I'm not saying Pacheco can't play against Stoke or other Premiership middle of the table clubs because they'd kick him about. I believe he has the trickery and the speed to live with that. I just don't think that in that particular game where we struggled to have any real sustained possession and often resorted to lumping it up to Ngog to lose, that Pacheco would have been able to influence things.

Get Gerrard, Torres, Benayoun and Riera in the team and then you have players that will get the ball and hold onto it in the final third, and I'm sure Pacheco could be effective with them around him. It's just a bit much at this stage with us playing so poorly, to expect the kid to come in and be the focal point of our attack, which is what he would have to have been on Saturday.

by **made in UK** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:08 am

john craig wrote:
made in UK wrote:
john craig wrote:I don't think Stoke away was a game to play Pacheco in at this stage. Physically he'd have struggled and defensively we'd have been weaker for it.

He has to start getting game time at home though if this kid is going to develop into the player we think he can. Not necessarily from the start but certainly from the bench.

I'm not buying the 'he isn't physically strong enough' notion to play against Stoke or any other pub house team.

Luis Garcia was a feather weight when it came to physical strength but that didn't stop him from playing, scoring goals, doing tricks and wasting the ball .

There are many lightweight players, Owen too who have handled the rough and tumble of the Premiership. To say Pacheco would of struggled physically is as almost as premature as one of Mick's 'I know its early but..' threads.

As for being weaker defensively we did start with eight defensive minded players against Stoke. So if anything we could of used a more attacking minded player to do something in the final third with.

Personally I wouldn't call Stoke a pub team mate, they don't play pretty but they're very physical and play to their strengths - much like the Wimbledon of old and Bolton under Fat Sam.

I'm not saying Pacheco can't play against Stoke or other Premiership middle of the table clubs because they'd kick him about. I believe he has the trickery and the speed to live with that. I just don't think that in that particular game where we struggled to have any real sustained possession and often resorted to lumping it up to Ngog to lose, that Pacheco would have been able to influence things.

Get Gerrard, Torres, Benayoun and Riera in the team and then you have players that will get the ball and hold onto it in the final third, and I'm sure Pacheco could be effective with them around him. It's just a bit much at this stage with us playing so poorly, to expect the kid to come in and be the focal point of our attack, which is what he would have to have been on Saturday.

I understand whaty you're saying John, but you didn't say that in you're initial post.

by **Owzat** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:35 am

I think the fact Rafa won't play natural full-backs etc ahead of fill-ins shows he doesn't believe his young players are good enough. Pacheco may be a different situation, perhaps protecting him and waiting for him to become a bit stronger physically and maybe mentally. But the likes of Darby, Spearing, El Zhar and Kelly should be getting more games than they are IF they are good enough. I think they will follow the Guthries, Mellors and Warnocks of previous seasons out of the door, maybe one of them will be sold for the wrong reason (like Warnock) and we come to regret it, but Warnock was getting games and fighting for his place, this current crop are getting bench warming duty and the odd game judged to be "right" for them. At the moment getting on the bench might be seen as making up the numbers, pretty poor considering we have at least four 1st team regulars out with injury and have just sold two players and brought in only one. If any of us couldn't get a game under current circumstances then I think we'd be looking at a loan or permanent move

by **neil** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:45 am

Igor Zidane wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:I don't know. Any (or that much) weaker than Lucas or Aquilani?

I think we could have used him, if not from the start then certainly later in the game.

Lucas played a blinder against stoke .

People are easily pleased these days.

by **Owzat** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:59 pm

john craig wrote:Personally I wouldn't call Stoke a pub team mate, they don't play pretty but they're very physical and play to their strengths - much like the Wimbledon of old and Bolton under Fat Sam.

I'm not saying Pacheco can't play against Stoke or other Premiership middle of the table clubs because they'd kick him about. I believe he has the trickery and the speed to live with that. I just don't think that in that particular game where we struggled to have any real sustained possession and often resorted to lumping it up to Ngog to lose, that Pacheco would have been able to influence things.

Get Gerrard, Torres, Benayoun and Riera in the team and then you have players that will get the ball and hold onto it in the final third, and I'm sure Pacheco could be effective with them around him. It's just a bit much at this stage with us playing so poorly, to expect the kid to come in and be the focal point of our attack, which is what he would have to have been on Saturday.

A lot of sides will kick lumps out of our players to stop them playing, they have to live with it and get on with it. But perhaps instead of going in with "siege mentality" and trying to negate their 'tactic' we could have given them a big headache by keeping possession, stretching their defence and then they'd have been taking throw-ins from inside their own half instead of our's and I doubt even they can throw it that far!

Stoke are only as dangerous as you let them be, perhaps we are vulnerable because we concede too many needless free-kicks, throw-ins and corners. We just tried to play them at their game, if Brazil had played them do you think they'd have put six footers throughout their side and let them dictate how the game would go? Fair do's we aren't exactly Brazil, more like Bolivia these days, but sticking tall non-ball players in the side was never going to help anything but defensively. And while kharkaz was making a maginot line-esque defence for Rafa in the "unlucky" argument stakes, he didn't state how lucky we were to score in the first place with the ball deflecting in off Kyrgiakos from point-blank range. We weren't exactly brilliant against Leeds either, in fact this season could have been a lot worse. But fans will always remember decisions against, like managers they always voice their disgust at those first and conveniently forget the good luck.

by **alxy** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:23 am

I did say I would love for Pacheco to get a run out for the team. But now thinking about it, it's probably better that he doesn't. You would want to introduce your youngsters when you're playing well, so the senior guys can show him how it's done and protect him a bit. Now, the senior players themselves are in a rut. So to play him in that kind of team would probably just demoralise him and may even be harmful in the long run to his development.

by **Owzat** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:48 am

We're simply not getting into positions that Rafa is comfortable with taking what he considers "risks". It happened with Aquilani, sitting on the bench waiting for us to be 2-0 or 3-0 up so he could have a gentle run-out, and now with Pacheco in the same boat. Take a risk ffs Rafa, all we are saying is give youth a chance................................. Never know we might get 2-0 up at Molineux and see Pacheco, or it is possible Rafa will leave him out and take someone who hasn't played in the league yet instead - we have used 28 different players, but still Pacheco has made just ONE appearance as sub in the league

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