Liverpool FC Forum

by **NANNY RED** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:55 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:Went last night for the first time in ages and it was an absolute shambles.
I actually feel sorry for Rafa, the players to me have given up and were a disgrace.
Having said that he signed these players and he is the manager. The man charged with motivating them and in tough times installing belief etc.
He has clearly not been able to do that this season.
We have had a lot of key players injured that havent helped but again the squad is his squad.
He has shaped it over 5 years and if we cant cope with injuries then the buck stops with him.
We are weak in the same areas that we were 5 years ago and these have not been addressed.
When i got sent the team yesterday by my mate i wasnt that concerned. I thought it was definately strong enough to beat a lowly championship side at home.
I thought the players would come out with fire in their bellies as this was our last chance of winning something on note this season. With united already out and a decent draw next round this was a chance that was there for the taking.
Get some confidence back with a 3 or 4 goal win.
But the players are that devoid of confidence and he (Rafa) appears to not have any idea how to turn it round that we are in a truly awful position.

There is no way that he should be getting called a waiter and slagged off though. The man has put everything he could into this club.
Embraced the city and tried to get us back where we feel we belong.
He brought us the champions league which meant we got to keep the trophy. All that deserves respect.
He should be fondly remembered for what he acheived initially and for what he wanted to achieve too.

But he does need to go, he has had his chance and didnt quite get there. Its a shame and i genuinely wish he could have succeeded, but imo he will always come up short and someone else deserves a chance.
The club comes first.

In a few years people who are supporting him will understand that he had come as far as he could and he will be looked on like Houllier as a decent fella who tried his hardest but wasnt quite able to do what he or we wanted.

Its breaking my heart to say this Ben but thats a very good post mate,

by **Ciggy** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:01 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:Went last night for the first time in ages and it was an absolute shambles.
I actually feel sorry for Rafa, the players to me have given up and were a disgrace.
Having said that he signed these players and he is the manager. The man charged with motivating them and in tough times installing belief etc.
He has clearly not been able to do that this season.
We have had a lot of key players injured that havent helped but again the squad is his squad.
He has shaped it over 5 years and if we cant cope with injuries then the buck stops with him.
We are weak in the same areas that we were 5 years ago and these have not been addressed.
When i got sent the team yesterday by my mate i wasnt that concerned. I thought it was definately strong enough to beat a lowly championship side at home.
I thought the players would come out with fire in their bellies as this was our last chance of winning something on note this season. With united already out and a decent draw next round this was a chance that was there for the taking.
Get some confidence back with a 3 or 4 goal win.
But the players are that devoid of confidence and he (Rafa) appears to not have any idea how to turn it round that we are in a truly awful position.

There is no way that he should be getting called a waiter and slagged off though. The man has put everything he could into this club.
Embraced the city and tried to get us back where we feel we belong.
He brought us the champions league which meant we got to keep the trophy. All that deserves respect.
He should be fondly remembered for what he acheived initially and for what he wanted to achieve too.

But he does need to go, he has had his chance and didnt quite get there. Its a shame and i genuinely wish he could have succeeded, but imo he will always come up short and someone else deserves a chance.
The club comes first.

In a few years people who are supporting him will understand that he had come as far as he could and he will be looked on like Houllier as a decent fella who tried his hardest but wasnt quite able to do what he or we wanted.

The way I feel aswell, and I hate it when people call him names, theres just no need for it the insults, he doesnt deserve it.

by **Ben Patrick** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:12 pm

I dont enjoy feeling this way either ladies

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:19 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:Went last night for the first time in ages and it was an absolute shambles.
I actually feel sorry for Rafa, the players to me have given up and were a disgrace.
Having said that he signed these players and he is the manager. The man charged with motivating them and in tough times installing belief etc.
He has clearly not been able to do that this season.
We have had a lot of key players injured that havent helped but again the squad is his squad.
He has shaped it over 5 years and if we cant cope with injuries then the buck stops with him.
We are weak in the same areas that we were 5 years ago and these have not been addressed.
When i got sent the team yesterday by my mate i wasnt that concerned. I thought it was definately strong enough to beat a lowly championship side at home.
I thought the players would come out with fire in their bellies as this was our last chance of winning something on note this season. With united already out and a decent draw next round this was a chance that was there for the taking.
Get some confidence back with a 3 or 4 goal win.
But the players are that devoid of confidence and he (Rafa) appears to not have any idea how to turn it round that we are in a truly awful position.

There is no way that he should be getting called a waiter and slagged off though. The man has put everything he could into this club.
Embraced the city and tried to get us back where we feel we belong.
He brought us the champions league which meant we got to keep the trophy. All that deserves respect.
He should be fondly remembered for what he acheived initially and for what he wanted to achieve too.

But he does need to go, he has had his chance and didnt quite get there. Its a shame and i genuinely wish he could have succeeded, but imo he will always come up short and someone else deserves a chance.
The club comes first.

In a few years people who are supporting him will understand that he had come as far as he could and he will be looked on like Houllier as a decent fella who tried his hardest but wasnt quite able to do what he or we wanted.

Good post mate.

by **tubby** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:23 pm

I think if we lose 2 out of the next 4 games then Rafa should go and Kenny should take over as caretaker manager at least until we can get someone else in during the summer. Unless we can get that person now.

by **Paul C** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:24 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:Went last night for the first time in ages and it was an absolute shambles.
I actually feel sorry for Rafa, the players to me have given up and were a disgrace.
Having said that he signed these players and he is the manager. The man charged with motivating them and in tough times installing belief etc.
He has clearly not been able to do that this season.
We have had a lot of key players injured that havent helped but again the squad is his squad.
He has shaped it over 5 years and if we cant cope with injuries then the buck stops with him.
We are weak in the same areas that we were 5 years ago and these have not been addressed.
When i got sent the team yesterday by my mate i wasnt that concerned. I thought it was definately strong enough to beat a lowly championship side at home.
I thought the players would come out with fire in their bellies as this was our last chance of winning something on note this season. With united already out and a decent draw next round this was a chance that was there for the taking.
Get some confidence back with a 3 or 4 goal win.
But the players are that devoid of confidence and he (Rafa) appears to not have any idea how to turn it round that we are in a truly awful position.

There is no way that he should be getting called a waiter and slagged off though. The man has put everything he could into this club.
Embraced the city and tried to get us back where we feel we belong.
He brought us the champions league which meant we got to keep the trophy. All that deserves respect.
He should be fondly remembered for what he acheived initially and for what he wanted to achieve too.

But he does need to go, he has had his chance and didnt quite get there. Its a shame and i genuinely wish he could have succeeded, but imo he will always come up short and someone else deserves a chance.
The club comes first.

In a few years people who are supporting him will understand that he had come as far as he could and he will be looked on like Houllier as a decent fella who tried his hardest but wasnt quite able to do what he or we wanted.

Nail on the head there Ben!

by **ConnO'var** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:29 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:Went last night for the first time in ages and it was an absolute shambles.
I actually feel sorry for Rafa, the players to me have given up and were a disgrace.
Having said that he signed these players and he is the manager. The man charged with motivating them and in tough times installing belief etc.
He has clearly not been able to do that this season.
We have had a lot of key players injured that havent helped but again the squad is his squad.
He has shaped it over 5 years and if we cant cope with injuries then the buck stops with him.
We are weak in the same areas that we were 5 years ago and these have not been addressed.
When i got sent the team yesterday by my mate i wasnt that concerned. I thought it was definately strong enough to beat a lowly championship side at home.
I thought the players would come out with fire in their bellies as this was our last chance of winning something on note this season. With united already out and a decent draw next round this was a chance that was there for the taking.
Get some confidence back with a 3 or 4 goal win.
But the players are that devoid of confidence and he (Rafa) appears to not have any idea how to turn it round that we are in a truly awful position.

There is no way that he should be getting called a waiter and slagged off though. The man has put everything he could into this club.
Embraced the city and tried to get us back where we feel we belong.
He brought us the champions league which meant we got to keep the trophy. All that deserves respect.
He should be fondly remembered for what he acheived initially and for what he wanted to achieve too.

But he does need to go, he has had his chance and didnt quite get there. Its a shame and i genuinely wish he could have succeeded, but imo he will always come up short and someone else deserves a chance.
The club comes first.

In a few years people who are supporting him will understand that he had come as far as he could and he will be looked on like Houllier as a decent fella who tried his hardest but wasnt quite able to do what he or we wanted.

Top post, mate.
Agree 100%

by **shawnk** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:29 pm

anti-hero wrote:well i'm all for letting it go. it surprises me even as i type this. but can we really let him go at this point? i mean, nevermind the fact that all the newspapers have pointed out already, that it would cost ALOT of money to reorganize the bootroom and all the other staff midseason, but wouldnt we be sulking too if a new manager came in this instant and the results were the same, or poorer? and who would we attract this late into the season?

i dont think the lot of managers that are currently without a club these days would make the grade at anfield, let alone a top draw manager that is probably managing another top club still in the chase for silverware. its harder to come to terms with it, but i think WE WILL be staying with Rafa AT LEAST till the end of this season. so hang on to your horsies.

it would probably be more beneficial to us anyways, less confusion in an already dejected and out of sorts dressing room. imagine midseason, if rafa goes and takes his contingent of spanish coaches with him. and in comes some italian (i say italian because our next manager would most likely be an import just being honest no? maybe mourinho?) and a bunch of other mustachioed mario looking plumbers, and we have torres and carra and gerrard looking at each other trying to understand what he's trying to say.

but at the same time we all want him to leave because we want CHANGE. we've hoped and hoped. can we hope some more though? because that's the only thing i think we have right now. hope. that somewhere in that 'tactical footballing brain' is a plan to at least, make us look respectable.

We do have Kenny Dalglish. Some may say he maybe old school, lack of manager skills in modern football and etc. But I think those doesn't matter, what we need now (until the end of the season) is someone to tell the players this is Liverpool FC are playing for and how the old school LFC players used to thrash their opponent and stuff.

As long there's a passion and trust from the players, I think it really doesn't matter much if the manager has been out of the job for long or not. We still play with 11 players.

by **Ciggy** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:35 pm

Long’s header in the first period of extra time brought Liverpool’s world tumbling down and it is hard to see how they will recover from this ignominy; at present, they are in danger of becoming the laughing stock of world football.
Something, somewhere has to change.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpo....3

Long’s header in the first period of extra time brought Liverpool’s world tumbling down and it is hard to see how they will recover from this ignominy; at present, they are in danger of becoming the laughing stock of world football.
Something, somewhere has to change.

Too many hearts have been broken, too many dreams have been shattered, too much faith has been lost. If not, this could be the end of Liverpool Football Club as you once knew it.

by **Ben Patrick** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:48 pm

I genuinely would bite the bullet and try and see if we could get Kenny to take over for the rest of the season on a trial.
Its not nice sacking Rafa but at the end of the day we have to think about the club.
And we are in that much of a downward spiral that at this moment in time it appears things will only get worse.
The players are not playing for him. Thats out of order, well its a disgrace to be honest. But they are clearly not playing for him.
Once that happens where do you go from there ?

Downhill and fast, its alarming our decline this season.
Someone of the stature of Kenny could surely get something more out of these players for now to try and salvage something from this season so we dont end up mid table.
If he comes in and we make the top 4 we can then make a decision on whether a) he wants the job longer term b) we go for a new man again.

We have a good side, nowhere near as poor as the players are showing and that is the main thing.
It was a dark time when Houllier went, the club looked really down and on the brink of its knees.
We were losing Owen and possibly Gerrard too. But Rafa came in and things didnt seem as bad.
Once someone new comes in (if i mean) i am sure that results would follow.
We are a good side with some fantastic players, not far off being the best about last season.
Its not all doom and gloom, it just seems that way at the moment.

by **Homebooby** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:57 pm

Is it not possible that Kenny is already involved.....I would imagine an all hands on deck approach would be appropriate no?

Prob doesn't work like that in footie right?

by **Owzat** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:05 pm

If you stick with the manager then the one thing you lose your grip on is HOPE. If nothing else the new manager will bring in hope, all the current manager brings is more false dawns, 'corners turned', 'new seasons' halfway through and a lot of words to the media. We don't need Rafa constantly commenting, little digs back at the media and nonsense statements like "we're still in the Europa League" (yeah, because we ain't played a game yet, like we're "still in" the 10/11 title race)

I'm all for giving someone time, like Aquilani ain't looked £20m worth yet but let's give him at least until the summer to pencil him in next to Keane as £20m not well spent. BUT Rafa hasn't just taken over last season, he's been here SIX seasons and this isn't the first poor to average season. We talk about him 'turning things around' as if this is one bad season in a string of excellent ones when in fact it's two good seasons in six.

I think we've sunk too much into what I'll call 'champions league mentality", that is to judge/accept it as a good season if we finish in the top four, thus qualifying for the champions league, and having a decent CL run. Rafa had the perfect start to his tenure, by that I don't mean it was a good first season but he won the CL which was always going to afford him support(ers) and that precious commodity of time. Had he not won the Champions League then I reckon he might well have been gone by 07/08. He certainly had a bit of luck that UEFA decided to allow us into the Champions League to defend our title, not that we defended it that well.

Even if we stick with Rafa, I'm sure some might be resigned to the fact he may not be gone by the end of the season, but do we seriously think he has what it takes to win the league? "We can't do better" isn't an argument I accept, nor is the 'safety first' notion that we might get worse under a new manager, because we want the league title and to accept a mediocre manager might be the best we can do is to be not only naive/stupid, but also accepts us as no longer being a great club and that for me is the worst crime a fan could commit (accepting mediocrity) I mean ffs, even LEEDS fans in LEAGUE ONE and the barcodes in the Championship who ain't won FA between them in donkey's years ASPIRE to better. OK it may only be a climb back up to the top flight, but if they accept they are league one and championship sides respectively would you respect them for it?!?!?!? Should we accept that a club with the joint most league titles isn't going to challenge for the title and we should be happy with second, third or even fourth best as it's better than............................. best?!?!?

I'd rather have a new manager every three years than stick with one who might get us regular top four finishes and a trophy every now and then. I don't like constant changes, but if a manager isn't good enough to win the league then we have to find one who is. I've seen a few references to past greats, even comparisons between Rafa's win percentages and those of managers who WON LEAGUE TITLES, but do you think those past greats would accept second best?!?!? Didn't someone get themselves ripped a new one for suggesting the mancs are happy for us to keep Rafa forever, even though he was absolutely f in right? We could well have a fergie of our own, not that he'll suddenly crack it after seven years in charge, but we might have him here for 20+ years.

Change can be daunting, but sometimes it is necessary

by **Waldo** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:24 pm

I think the signing of Maxi Rodriguez carries more significance than many think.

Why would he sign for 3.5 years if his 2 mates (Mascha and Torres) had given any incling that they were going to jump ship in the summer, like many of the doubters have suggested. I see this move not only as a good move for a squad/team but an indirect statement of intent from Rafa and 2 of his main men (Mascha and Torres).

Rafa won't walk and the yanks can't afford to sack him. It was only 6 months ago we were pipped at the post by Man Utd to the league with pretty much the same squad/team as we have now.

by **Homebooby** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:27 pm

Totally agree that change can be necessary, essential even and you could well be right that a simple change of manager will give the players, club, supporters and media a whole bunch of hope that we currently don't have and somehow that will translate into a massive turnaround. That IS entirely possible and it is definitely arguable that players might respond to different tactics more favourably and the boat will turn around. All entirely possible and that essentially is the gamble that needs to be weighed up.

Looking at the facts though, we're agree we lack depth of quality squad and we also know we have limited funds to address those issues, new manager or not. It is entirely subjective to state that any other person will be more or less successful than Rafa in the market.

It is also a fact that the issues that the club face as a whole will remain if a new guy comes in and I would be amazed if we disappeared from the news pages as if all of our issues are cleared as soon as a new guy comes in. My guess is that a new appointment will struggle just as badly. If they appoint someone high profile, they'll be looking to kill him, alternatively a low profile appointment will be attacked for being incapable of dealing with the problems we face. Either way, we face a media storm.

Newcastle were mentioned just above and look at the mess that they got themselves into with their revolving door.

My point is that all problems do not go away with a change of manager, they stay and a change of face might offer initial respite, but there are additional dependancies.

Either way, we remain in the same long term struggle that Souness started us off on. Question is whether Rafa is the one to pull us out of it. Clearly his support is dwindling and understandably so.

This is totally not based on fact, but my gut feeling, that Rafa has initiated more change and long term good in the background than any of us are aware of and he'll probably never get the credit for it, cos a new guy will come in at the right moment.

by **vegnomeat** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:33 pm

Rafa has been in charge for 6 years, that is hardly a revolving door.

If he stays

Last one out turn the lights out .....

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