Liverpool FC Forum

by **andy_g** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:33 am

maybe its the constant buggering that has led to the fall in morale...?

by **Number 9** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:55 am

Sabre wrote:Finally he has found a team according to his quality, I think he will fit well there, lots of passion, little quality, and losing 4-0 against teams that are better skilled.

Congratulations Keane!

by **Number 9** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:57 am

Sabre wrote:Alonso's father told me that for instance, he said Benitez is buggering you all the day with things to correct.

Too funny that! :laugh:

by **made in UK** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:37 pm

Sabre wrote:
Ben Patrick wrote:
Sabre wrote:Finally he has found a team according to his quality, I think he will fit well there, lots of passion, little quality, and losing 4-0 against teams that are better skilled.

Congratulations Keane!

Sabre i dont get this post at all.

Are you saying that Keane is a poor player ?
Celtic are a poor side ?

Or both ?

It's a bitter post Ben.

For me Keane didn't only let down Rafa when he left the club so early, he also let down the club and I don't think I can forgive him.

I don't feel the same thing for Bellamy or Crouch for instance, I never felt as if they didn't care about playing for Liverpool, it always looked to me as if Keane, only thought in himself.

That, and the fact that I expected a lot of him (If you look at my posts about his football you'll see little stick), left me a very bitter taste concerning Keane.

IMHO you can dislike Rafa, you won't be the first nor the last player to dislike Rafa. But if you reach to play for Liverpool, you can't want to fúck off so soon out of that club. I don't know if I've explained my bitterness.

I normally wish the best for players who served Liverpool well and left (Hamman, Crouch, Bellamy, Hyypiia)

But in some cases I feel bitter (Alonso) or very bitter (Keane) about how they left.

No offence meant to Celtic really. I like them in fact, but they're not a top european club, and I felt as if Keane thought he was of himself very good.

Rafa let Keane down more than Keane let Rafa down, that is an unbelievable conclusion you've come to there.

Also as a poster who never takes much from 'body language' how can you state that Keane was only out for himself??

I saw a player trying very much like Kuyt does on a weekly basis to work his way into the side. When of course he was given 30mins every game near enough to prove that. I'd say Keane tried too hard to impress and the pressure of not scoring freely got the better of him in the end. As we all know though Keane could of bagged a hatrick one week and found himself subbed again the next. Keane was definately not out for himself he was here to impress, unlike Lucas and Kuyt Keane never was afforded substantial time in the side to get things going.

And if you don't rate Keane I'd love to know what you think of the current players we have.

by **Sabre** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:35 pm

My conclussion is that he let down Liverpool, not Rafa.

It's not the body language which makes me think he thinks about himself, it's a broken contract and the fact he left in winter when he came in summer. Fact. That's rare. Correct me if I'm wrong but Keane was the one interested in leaving, more than Rafa wanting him out.

When of course he was given 30mins every game near enough to prove that. I'd say Keane tried too hard to impress and the pressure of not scoring freely got the better of him in the end.

I also saw a man trying hard, and in fact I praised him in the posts of that times. I also saw a man who wasn't big enough for a big club, and what's worse, he didn't fight enough to prove himself worthy for a big club. I wouldn't be saying this if he had stayed until the end of the season, fought for the title, and left like Bellamy did. I see no problems in what Bellamy did.

But besides trying hard, you have to be professional, and understand that if you have a drought of goals, you'll start being subbed and you'll even be sat down. If Keane thinks he was going to play because of a law says that a 18M player has to play, then he was wrong.

30 minutes in Liverpool are seen here as an insult to Keane, but I see them as a great opportunity when you come from a smaller club and you want to prove yourself in a big club. An opportunity that not every player that has underperformed in Liverpool had enjoyed, those 30 mins.

He failed, and now he has ended up in a team according to his failure.

It's a Rafa mistake, no doubt. He should have known better that player and maybe he should have noticed he's not a player for a big team.

And if you don't rate Keane I'd love to know what you think of the current players we have.

Compare with who, Ngog? I have a bias, I don't judge equally a player that comes from youth ranks and a player who's an international and comes for a lot of money.

Obviously I would be playing more happily with Keane than having to use Ngog, but I won't be as demanding with the younster as with the international.

by **tonyeh** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:12 pm

For me Keane didn't only let down Rafa when he left the club so early, he also let down the club and I don't think I can forgive him.

Sorry Sabre, but that's a crock.

Benitez fucked Keane AND Liverpool by persisting in a bullshit 4-5-1 formation with Keane up top on his own and the rest of the team in their own half. Few strikers can/could cope with such a cowardly approach to the game. That's why we saw Robbie turn around on several occasions with his arms in the air asking where the hell everybody was. Still in their own half was the answer.

And draging Keane of with a substantial amount of time left on the clock, regardless of performance, didn't do ANYONE and favors either. A lot can happen in the last 30 minutes of a football match. If I recall correctly, it was Keane's goal against Arsenal that had us top of the league last Christmas (a game in which he was yet again subbed even after scoring) and a few days later he was gone.

Bloody disgrace.

I wouldn't be the strikers biggest fan by any means, but Benitez is completely at fault for the Robbie Keane fiasco, nobody else. If anyone's in need of forgiveness, it's Rafael benitez.

by **tonyeh** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:14 pm

Sabre wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but Keane was the one interested in leaving, more than Rafa wanting him out.

That's so wrong.

by **Sabre** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:19 pm

tonyeh wrote:
Sabre wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but Keane was the one interested in leaving, more than Rafa wanting him out.

That's so wrong.

I'm ready to face that. Please explain how.

Note that I never believed that notion of Keane being a Parry signing, I do think Rafa wanted him here.

In other words, Rafa wanted Keane out for what, getting the millions and not spending them? that doesn't make sense. We didn't sign a big man in winter with those millions.

I don't think Rafa wanted to sell a player knowing he could not use much of the money of that selling.

by **made in UK** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:54 pm

It's not the body language which makes me think he thinks about himself, it's a broken contract and the fact he left in winter when he came in summer. Fact. That's rare. Correct me if I'm wrong but Keane was the one interested in leaving, more than Rafa wanting him out.

And this brings the age old question of 'why' a player wants to leave so early in his contract. Players hand in requests when their unhappy and with Benitez I don't think it would be unreasonable to consider his lack of man-management skills played some part in Keane leaving early. Lets be fair here, Keane wasn't afforded the opportunities like less capable players in the current squad have been given. Rafa made some mind boggling decisions with Keane and most fans could see that and I'd say that Keane couldn't fathom the man out either (he wouldn't be the only one). Like I said I think poor management excelled Keane's departure and Liverpool F.C have suffered the consequences. Its also worth remembering on numerous occassions previously we've had good players leave because of scenarios like this.

I also saw a man trying hard, and in fact I praised him in the posts of that times. I also saw a man who wasn't big enough for a big club, and what's worse, he didn't fight enough to prove himself worthy for a big club.

Many player have fought hard enough during Rafa's time including Keane, Crouch would bang in a hatrick one week and find himself benched or on the left wing the next. Keane fought hard but similar with Aqualiani now never got an adequate run in the side to prove that.

If Keane thinks he was going to play because of a law says that a 18M player has to play, then he was wrong.

I don't know if he did think that and neither do you. But it is okay for Keane to think he's better than anyone else we had bar Torres and if he did think that he was right. But yet again under Rafa circumstances the better players can spend most of their time sat on their ar.ses watching the likes of Voronin, N'gog, Babel, Kuyt and Lucas out on the pitch instead.

30 minutes in Liverpool are seen here as an insult to Keane, but I see them as a great opportunity when you come from a smaller club and you want to prove yourself in a big club. An opportunity that not every player that has underperformed in Liverpool had enjoyed, those 30 mins.

Try not to sound too arrogant when refering to Spurs as a small club, there not. Havant and Waterlooville are a small club Spurs are not. Infact that "small club" is doing much better than its 'bigger counter-part' at the moment.

Crouch came from Portsmouth, played eighteen games upfront for us (and started most of them, if not all of them) without scoring. Keane on the other hand wasn't afforded the same luxury and Rafa shelled out 20 Million on him, like Aquailani. Its a lot of money considering you're only going to give a guy a cameo or small chance to play here and there.

Compare with who, Ngog? I have a bias, I don't judge equally a player that comes from youth ranks and a player who's an international and comes for a lot of money.

Obviously I would be playing more happily with Keane than having to use Ngog, but I won't be as demanding with the younster as with the international.

And this is the crux of the problem today isn't it. Certain members seem content with average players playing for their team and make excuses for both N'gog and Rafa. N'Gog is a great option for a fourth choice forward, not a second choice, surely NOT FOR A BIG CLUB LIKE US.

by **tonyeh** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:06 pm

As far as I'm aware, Keane certainly didn't want to leave. He may have been unhappy, who wouldn't have been, being treated in the way he was? But he wanted to play for Liverpool. It's his team since he was a kid. He's a Liverpool fan. A dream come true he stated when he arrived here.

Benitez wanted Keane gone, because he didn't fit into his limited system, when Torres got injured and we reverted back to a defensive 4-5-1 formation, which Keane was clearly unsuited to. Unfortunately, we didn't have another decent striker to partner him, when Torres was out and Benitez always has favoured the 1 lone striker nonsense anyway...god knows why.

Benitez definitely wanted Keane and was responsible for signing him (I found the Parry signed Keane nonsense staggering myself), But, once Keane didn't turn into one of Benitez' square pegs, he paniced and tried to get as much of his ridiculous transfer fee back as possible.

But Benitez's failings with Keane is just one example of his extremely wierd and limited approach. The Alonso fiasco is another. Both times Benitez failed to get replacements for losses and that's a really bad managerial move in any walk of life.

I spose at the end of the day, It's difficult to say why Benitez does the bizarre things he does, from freezing out Xabi in favor of Barry, to the crushing of Robbie Keane, to his downright odd treatment of Aqualini at the present time.

The guy just isn't on the ball (so to speak) and his decisions are baffling.

But who knows how Keane would have turned out if he had stayed. He was starting to get goals. 3 in his last two games for Liverpool, before he was dropped after scoring twice against Bolton. He may have got more, if he was allowed to actually stay on the bloody pitch for a full game. Who knows.

I certainly think we could do with him now...that's for sure.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:06 pm

tonyeh wrote:..to the crushing of Robbie Keane,

A bad signing, simple as that. Rafa was correct to sell him, the mistake was in failing to bring in a replacement.

by **dawson99** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:42 pm

the mistake was signing in the first place.

by **Ben Patrick** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:21 am

LFC2007 wrote:
tonyeh wrote:..to the crushing of Robbie Keane,

A bad signing, simple as that. Rafa was correct to sell him, the mistake was in failing to bring in a replacement.

i actually think they are really good posts from both made in uk and tonyeh personally

by **LFC2007** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:54 am

Ben Patrick wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
tonyeh wrote:..to the crushing of Robbie Keane,

A bad signing, simple as that. Rafa was correct to sell him, the mistake was in failing to bring in a replacement.

i actually think they are really good posts from both made in uk and tonyeh personally

Eh? I didn't say they weren't.

The Keane signing was a bad mistake by Rafa whichever way you look at it. I thought it could've been managed better by Rafa, but my overwhelming feeling is that regardless of how much playing time he would've been afforded, he was never going to fit in because of the type of player that he was/is. He only had a handful (PSV, Everton, Arsenal, WBA, Bolton?) of good games for the club but generally speaking he very much struggled to get into games. There was maybe once or twice (e.g. City away) where I thought he should've started, but he started a lot of games despite being absolutely woeful in several of them and watching closely I thought it was clear that he wouldn't be the creative second striker we were looking for. At £20.3m I was expecting a whole lot more.

by **Sabre** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:07 am

Yes I also think they are clearly good posts and civilised discussion.

But if I have to be honest, I'm not entirely convinced. I asked why I was wrong thinking that it was more a case of Keane wanting to leave, and I've been answered this.

As far as I'm aware, Keane certainly didn't want to leave. He may have been unhappy, who wouldn't have been, being treated in the way he was? But he wanted to play for Liverpool. It's his team since he was a kid. He's a Liverpool fan. A dream come true he stated when he arrived here.

As much as it's a good post I only have an "As far as I'm aware" and the bit about it was his team as a kid, which I already knew.

For me to clarify that question is important, because if it was Rafa who wanted him out in winter and with no replacement, then my bitterness towards Keane would dissapear instantly and I'd have yet another thing to complain about Rafa (he said he wanted Keane in a press conference IIRC)

So if anyone has some quote, something to clarify that let me know (anyone).

I'm not interested on defending Rafa on this, nor his búllshít tactics, nor his failings, I'd have the same bitterness if we had ANY other manager. I just want to know exactly how it happened, and if I've missed something very obvious (some quote, some common knowledge), please let me know. I genuinely don't know what happened exactly.

For me it's entirely different if he wanted to leave badly on the rush, or it was the manager who wanted him out.

P.S. To Made UK: I said smaller club. Not small. Not wanting to sound arrogant. Both Alonso, Reina, Riera, Keane and Benayoun came from smaller clubs. Some of them delivered, some of them didn't, all of them under the same manager, with the same mistakes and failings.

P.S.2. If I remove my bitterness about Keane for a moment, yes, I think he's a very good player. I always thought so. But he left Liverpool in a bad moment for me, and I'd like to clarify the reasons.

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