Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:02 pm

Course there's a divide, there's bound to be. Not only do you have a situation where the fan base is probably split 50-50 now on whether or not the manager should stay, you've also got people living in a trench on both sides which was dug in excess of two seasons ago. Not only do people have to deal with the club they love not winning football matches, they also have to deal with the feeling that they are being "mocked" because they possibly called it wrong. I personally don't believe there has been the "mocking" or the "derision", but naturally enough people are sensitive to the prospect of it and jimp up and down at the slightest perception of a slant.

I reckon I've been accused more than most of revelling in a defeat, of wallowing in the clubs misfortune (I got it again yesterday) and other than saying it's not the case there's not much else you can do. The idea that my team continually loses and becomes a laughing stock, but I actually feel OK about it because I can say to people "Yes I know we are playing sh!t but you'll never guess what, I had reservations about the manager three years ago, how cool is that" is just unbelieveable. It's incredible to me that Liverpool fans continually suggest other Liverpool fans want the team to lose, completely beyond my comprehension.

I actually think one of the many reasons the team isn't performing is precisely because of the great divide. I suspect the players are similarly divided, it shows in their performances and the crowd certainly is. I know many match goers maintain that the vast majority are ultra pro Rafa, but I can tell you there is much less "Raffer, Raff Aye Elle" coming over on the telly than there used to be, there is much more resignation to defeats and nervousness amongst the support. I may be twelve thousand miles away but that much is absolutely obvious.

I said yesterday and got pounded for it that I admire the more trenchant elements of our support. Just because I totally disagree with RBG, Nanny, Emerald, Lando and the like doesn't mean I can't admire their stickability and their loyalty. Any other club in the world would have 100% of the fans calling for the managers head by now, and these people are living proof that we have the most patient and best fans in the land. All the rest of us can't match up to those standards, but it doesn't stop me being impressed by it anyway. Once there is a resolution or indeed a revolution and ALL the fans can unite behind the manager, whoever that is, then Liverpool Football Club will be at its strongest again.

I should add as a footnote that there is every chance that regardless of the mess we are in (and we really are in one) we won't be able to sack the manager because of the financial situation. As I've said many times, he is a busted flush IMHO but he wouldn't be the first to suddenly hit paydirt and it all happen for him. Adrian Heaths goal at Oxford for the bitters rescued Howerd Kendall, Mark Robins at Forest did the same for Ferguson. You never know, it is a possibility it could happen however remote. If he MUST stay, then I absolutely hope with all my heart that it happens for rafa too. As I've said many times, who is/was right is completely irrelevent* as long as the team wins.

*I've also said during and since last season that in many ways our form then proved the anti's wrong anyway. I always said Rafa could NEVER win the title and he very nearly did. He certainly came close enough IMHO to prove the NEVER part of the statement incorrect, simply because he almost did. It could therefore be argued that nobody has been actually 100% right, which of course nobody ever is.

by **POKERJOKERZ** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:38 pm

The more you fight, the more you play into Gillette and Hicks' hands.

If they can divide and conquer, then its easier for them.

They will play on your loyalties, set fans against each other, simply to create a divide.

What they dont want is unified supporters singing from the same hymn book.

When you have supporters split into factions its easier to pick them off one at a time, make them feel isolated, make them feel that they are in the minority.

Eventually, once everyone has gone their seperate ways, and split into little factions, then they will go to each one individually and get them back in the fold but on their terms.

How do I know this ? I know this because thats exactly what Glazer did at Old Trafford. He played on loyalty, played on emotion, and the more he did that the more the fans split. One group saying let him have a try at owning United, one group saying no he should clear off. One small group saying they wouldnt accept price rises. Others saying nothing would stop them going to Old Trafford.

Yes fans will differ, thats a foregone conclusion. but you can't let them see you disagree. The moment they do that one side is automatically going to be painted as the enemy.

Look at the :censored:

they've caused already over the split whether to keep Rafa or not. One owner wants to keep him, one wants him out..

The fans had to take sides.

At the time the fans took the view to keep him. Stand besie one of the owners. Those wanting him out were left isolated, and in the minority.

Now things have gone the way the other owner suggested it would, the fans are now leaping over to the other side and saying yes he needs to go.

Leaving a small minority who would stand by him.

Bit by bit your collective force is being broken down, and they will keep on doing this till eventually no one agrees with each other and you power as a group of fans has been completely eroded.

I am gonna make this confession now.

I saw your protests against Hicks and Gillette and I felt embarassed that we couldnt muster up similar defiance. But the truth is, they'd done such a good job of splitting the support our fans wouldnt have been able to agree what day of the week any protest should take place on.

by **Sabre** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:05 pm

IMHO a call asking perspective and reminding us to give a forum the required importance, is never futile.

by **tonyeh** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:49 pm

s@int wrote:
ConnO'var wrote:The motive for the thread is commendable but I regret to say that IMO, it is a complete exercise in futility.

Unless puberty kicks in (if ever) and maturity, rational thinking and objectivity raises their heads.

Until then, when the club is in crisis, there will ever be a difference in opinion in what has caused it and what are the steps required to overcome it. When everything is hunky dory..... peace will return.

Yeah I couldnt agree more

This place is getting very very boring...

by **Boocity** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:08 pm

Everybody has the right to have their own opinion as a supporter it is their club no matter where they come from. I was a staunch supporter of Rafa up until a couple months ago but my opinion has changed and I believe the time is right for a change of manager, that is my opinion and if some do not agree, that fine by me.

There have been a few on this forum who have advocated a change of manager for a couple of years now and although I did not agree with them, it was their opinion and they are entitled to it. Actually I respected them for their determination to keep to their principles as some of the abuse that was metered out was disgraceful, if you were anti-Rafa you were put into the same pot as the anti-climate change brigade or the holocaust deniers.

Many people have now changed their opinion and I am one of them but for those who still support Rafa, thats you opinion and I respect that.

By the way i still have my doubts about climate change but thats another story.

by **lakes10** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:18 pm

it all feels a bit strange to me, you see i have always said that Rafa was never the man to win the prem for us, he is one of the best CL managers in the world but when it comes to english football he is missing something.

over this year more and more of the forum have also come to my way of thinking. for the first two years i think i stood alone with my view of Rafa and then two years ago two other members started to talk the same.

I dont like the split on the forum but for me the split has always been there since Rafa took over as our manager.

by **Sir Roger** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:43 pm

bigmick wrote:Course there's a divide, there's bound to be. Not only do you have a situation where the fan base is probably split 50-50 now on whether or not the manager should stay, you've also got people living in a trench on both sides which was dug in excess of two seasons ago. Not only do people have to deal with the club they love not winning football matches, they also have to deal with the feeling that they are being "mocked" because they possibly called it wrong. I personally don't believe there has been the "mocking" or the "derision", but naturally enough people are sensitive to the prospect of it and jimp up and down at the slightest perception of a slant.

I reckon I've been accused more than most of revelling in a defeat, of wallowing in the clubs misfortune (I got it again yesterday) and other than saying it's not the case there's not much else you can do. The idea that my team continually loses and becomes a laughing stock, but I actually feel OK about it because I can say to people "Yes I know we are playing sh!t but you'll never guess what, I had reservations about the manager three years ago, how cool is that" is just unbelieveable. It's incredible to me that Liverpool fans continually suggest other Liverpool fans want the team to lose, completely beyond my comprehension.

I actually think one of the many reasons the team isn't performing is precisely because of the great divide. I suspect the players are similarly divided, it shows in their performances and the crowd certainly is. I know many match goers maintain that the vast majority are ultra pro Rafa, but I can tell you there is much less "Raffer, Raff Aye Elle" coming over on the telly than there used to be, there is much more resignation to defeats and nervousness amongst the support. I may be twelve thousand miles away but that much is absolutely obvious.

I said yesterday and got pounded for it that I admire the more trenchant elements of our support. Just because I totally disagree with RBG, Nanny, Emerald, Lando and the like doesn't mean I can't admire their stickability and their loyalty. Any other club in the world would have 100% of the fans calling for the managers head by now, and these people are living proof that we have the most patient and best fans in the land. All the rest of us can't match up to those standards, but it doesn't stop me being impressed by it anyway. Once there is a resolution or indeed a revolution and ALL the fans can unite behind the manager, whoever that is, then Liverpool Football Club will be at its strongest again.

I should add as a footnote that there is every chance that regardless of the mess we are in (and we really are in one) we won't be able to sack the manager because of the financial situation. As I've said many times, he is a busted flush IMHO but he wouldn't be the first to suddenly hit paydirt and it all happen for him. Adrian Heaths goal at Oxford for the bitters rescued Howerd Kendall, Mark Robins at Forest did the same for Ferguson. You never know, it is a possibility it could happen however remote. If he MUST stay, then I absolutely hope with all my heart that it happens for rafa too. As I've said many times, who is/was right is completely irrelevent* as long as the team wins.

*I've also said during and since last season that in many ways our form then proved the anti's wrong anyway. I always said Rafa could NEVER win the title and he very nearly did. He certainly came close enough IMHO to prove the NEVER part of the statement incorrect, simply because he almost did. It could therefore be argued that nobody has been actually 100% right, which of course nobody ever is.

There will always be a divide. Even after the miracle of Istanbul some were saying that Rafa didnt win it, Houlliers team, with a few additions did.
Some, including myself have never really liked his style. His coldness. His anally retentive attention to detail. His futile efforts to control every game. His lack of a plan b. His predictability and over cautiousness. On and on. Leading to the conclusion that he is incapable of ever again reaching the heights of that first miraculous season.
I have said that we will NEVER win the Premier league while he is in charge. I now add that we will never win the CL again while hes there. The fa or carling cup maybe. But thats it.
I do honestly feel sorry for him because I believe hes a good and honest, passionate and principled man. But hes his own worst enemy who has now virtually isolated himself by giving all his detractors what they want: a Liverpool on the brink of a catastrophe. And all these doom and gloom merchants and sensational headline writers can now smell blood and will not rest until they are proven right in what many have said all along: that Rafa was just a lucky man who has had his day and been found out.

by **tubby** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:47 pm

Anyone know why that manc pokerface lala got banned?

by **woof woof !** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:55 pm

bavlondon wrote:Anyone know why that manc pokerface lala got banned?

Yeah I do.

Check out the five year old "New manager? who? " thread he resurrected.

by **roberto green** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:56 pm

Sir Roger wrote:all these doom and gloom merchants and sensational headline writers can now smell blood and will not rest until they are proven right in what many have said all along: that Rafa was just a lucky man who has had his day and been found out.

They can smell the blood and I think it is a matter of time now, but there is one thing he is not and it is not a lucky manager.
So He has won all those La Liga trophies plus his european cup (through all those rounds against the big teams just on luck)not to mention the road to athens on luck.He also won the FA cup on luck beating the mancs and Chelsea on the way
I know he is on his way out now but he deserves more respect than that.

by **Boocity** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:57 pm

bavlondon wrote:Anyone know why that manc pokerface lala got banned?

Yes, Woof Woof banned him

by **tubby** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:58 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Anyone know why that manc pokerface lala got banned?

Yeah I do.

Check out the five year old "New manager? who? " thread he resurrected.

Thanks just saw it.

tbh (and not trying to vhemently defend him here) but im sure that was said tongue in cheek. He has been pretty straight up with everyone on here and hasn't said anything offensive. If anything he has just been comparing problems with us re ownership ect....

But yeah that was a silly comment. Is he banned for good?

by **Sir Roger** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:17 am

roberto green wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:all these doom and gloom merchants and sensational headline writers can now smell blood and will not rest until they are proven right in what many have said all along: that Rafa was just a lucky man who has had his day and been found out.

They can smell the blood and I think it is a matter of time now, but there is one thing he is not and it is not a lucky manager.
So He has won all those La Liga trophies plus his european cup (through all those rounds against the big teams just on luck)not to mention the road to athens on luck.He also won the FA cup on luck beating the mancs and Chelsea on the way
I know he is on his way out now but he deserves more respect than that.

Every manager needs luck as well as talent. I am not saying hes a useless or shi't manager. Just that in Istanbul he was very very lucky that things turned out the way they did. As in the fa cup against west ham.
The road to Athens might have been down to him but so was the insane team selection and tactics which lost us the final. I do have respect for him. Ive just said that. But I also think this is a mess of his own making. Im sad that its come to this but I now accept that he wont or cant change his ways. My greatest hope is that its not too late for the players to grow some balls and pull us out of this shi't before its too late

by **NANNY RED** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:22 am

roberto green wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:all these doom and gloom merchants and sensational headline writers can now smell blood and will not rest until they are proven right in what many have said all along: that Rafa was just a lucky man who has had his day and been found out.

They can smell the blood and I think it is a matter of time now, but there is one thing he is not and it is not a lucky manager.
So He has won all those La Liga trophies plus his european cup (through all those rounds against the big teams just on luck)not to mention the road to athens on luck.He also won the FA cup on luck beating the mancs and Chelsea on the way
I know he is on his way out now but he deserves more respect than that.

Totaly agree Roberto,

by **DaMo** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:37 am

bavlondon wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Anyone know why that manc pokerface lala got banned?

Yeah I do.

Check out the five year old "New manager? who? " thread he resurrected.

Thanks just saw it.

tbh (and not trying to vhemently defend him here) but im sure that was said tongue in cheek. He has been pretty straight up with everyone on here and hasn't said anything offensive. If anything he has just been comparing problems with us re ownership ect....

But yeah that was a silly comment. Is he banned for good?

Same thoughts here. He seemed a quality poster, especially for a Manc.

Some good and thorough contributions to discussion for the most part, so surely not a WUM of any sort, yet he's gone as easily as that? Oh well, c'est la vie. Think it's a shame though.

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