Liverpool FC Forum

by **Owzat** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:59 am

shanklygates wrote:oh dear, roberto first off we won 8 cups under Gh, and when we won the CL it was GH's team, also, when Gh took over we had the worst defence in europe, he turned it into the best, , he also won a treble, my point is Gh deserves a lot of credit for putting liverpool back on the map.

Eight cups? You must be including charity shields, counting finals and I think you've counted wrong anyway. We won the FA Cup, League Cup and UEFA Cup in 2001, and the League Cup in 2003 with two other minor trophies (one-off finals)

Houllier trophies/finals (including 3rd rate trophies)

00/01 League Cup : WON (pens) 1-1 vs Birmingham
00/01 FA Cup : WON 2-1 vs Arsenal
00/01 UEFA Cup : WON 5-4 vs Alaves (AET)
01/02 Community Shield : WON 2-1 vs Man Utd
01/02 European Super Sup : WON 3-2 vs B Munich
02/03 Community Shield : LOST 0-1 vs Arsenal
02/03 League Cup : WON 2-0 vs Man Utd

Seven 'finals', six wins - I have checked several sources, can't find any more than that. I suppose you could count finishing 2nd as "runners-up" and therefore an eighth "final". I do find his wikipedia page funny, it mentions constant references to "turning corners" and they don't list his Lyon successes under his honours!

shanklygates wrote:Gh finished 2nd with a points total that any other prem season up till that point would have won it.

"oh dear", you didn't do your homework did you :no

Titles won pre-01/02 with more than 80 points

99/00 91 points
95/96 82 points
92/93-95/96 all exceeded 80 points, but played 42 games

So two seasons previously 80 points wouldn't have won the league, not including seasons with more games

shanklygates wrote:Gh made bad signing but he also made some great ones, jerzy dudek, sami hyppia, stephane henchoz, and he also brought stevie into the team.

Not sure Dudek will be more than a legend for his part in Istanbul, he was too dodgy after being here long enough for Houllier to be an influence. He got carried away and, like Rafa, his signings got worse the longer he stayed in charge. Like Rafa he stopped buying good value players and tried throwing money at them - £10m at Diouf, £14m at Cisse, £11m at Heskey. At the time that was big money buys for us, Heskey and Cisse did look decent players for a season or so, but were never really Liverpool quality as many of Houllier's buys proved. We had a squad good enough to win the Champions League, when Rafa had converted it to more his own by 06/07 it lost its way and the CL final. Now we are scathing of the squad, one RB, no creative midfielder, 3 LBs of whom none are any good, a CF at RM (sound familiar from GH era?) and no standout second choice of striker.

by **Owzat** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:31 am

THEBARON wrote:According to Rafa we were a good team in the 1st half and the sending off was a turning point!

How many couldn't have predicted Rafa would blame the sending off?!?!? We played ok in the first half, not great considering we were playing the side bottom, but looked at least capable of winning or drawing. WTF was Rafa picking Dossena for? Out in the cold for so long (13 league games since his only appearance this season) and suddenly thrown in at the deep end. The substitutions were largely a sign he'd given up trying to get something out of the game, Benayoun for Dossena was correcting a mistake, Aurelio for Insua can only be admitting Aurelio is more attacking or Insua shouldn't be first choice, while Spearing was almost a token gesture substitution so late it served little purpose - unless you get a medal for appearing 10 times for a side that finishes nowhere near the top.

I'm sure most will point at Lucas and Kuyt AS USUAL, but the rest weren't any better. Johnson's poor headed clearance gave the first goal away, although for both Reina might be disappointed to be beaten from the narrow angles. They looked more likely to score, and did, which is shocking. No end of blaming "no money" will conceal the fact that our squad cost shedloads more than theirs, they are BOTTOM (still) and we're now in a :censored:

run with most of our players available so the excuses have run dry.

Here's the stat of the day, if we lose our next game it WILL BE our worst Premiership start ever. If we draw it WILL BE our joint worst Premiership start ever. We've never lost our 19th game of a Premiership season, and it's only Wolves, but the way we're playing they could beat us like the did spudz at WHL (where we lost incidentally)

WORST PREMIERSHIP STARTS (LFC, 18 GAMES)

1. 92/93 Souness : P18 W7 D4 L7 F31 A26 PTS 25 (GD +5)
2. 98/99 Houllier : P18 W7 D4 L7 F29 A22 PTS 25 (GD +7)
3. 03/04 Houllier : P18 W7 D5 L6 F28 A21 PTS 26 (GD +7)
4. 09/10 Benitez : P18 W8 D3 L7 F34 A25 PTS 27 (GD +9)
5. 04/05 Benitez : P18 W8 D4 L6 F28 A20 PTS 28 (GD +8)

WORST PREMIERSHIP STARTS (LFC, 19 GAMES)

1. 92/93 Souness : P19 W8 D4 L7 F33 A27 PTS 28 (GD +6)
2. 98/99 Houllier : P19 W8 D4 L7 F32 A23 PTS 28 (GD +9)
3. 03/04 Houllier : P19 W8 D5 L6 F29 A21 PTS 29 (GD +8)
4. 93/94 Souness : P19 W9 D3 L7 F30 A23 PTS 30 (GD +7)

At 'best' we will have our fifth worst start after 19 games, worst case scenario it will be our worst Premiership start ever. If we lose it will be outright our worst Premiership start, if we draw it will beat Houllier's 98/99 only on goals scored and if we win it will beat Souness' 93/94 season on GD.

Our start is now worse than it was in Rafa's first season and fourth worst overall (Premiership) Of course in 04/05 we were still in the Champions League AND League Cup, going on to reach both finals and win the former.

by **fivecups** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:47 am

Rafa's post match interview

Very sad. He can hardly speak. Sad times.

by **Ciggy** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:49 am

fivecups wrote:Rafa's post match interview

Very sad. He can hardly speak. Sad times.

I know, its horrible to see him like this. :down:

by **bigmick** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:06 am

It's a cruel game sometimes, and unfortunately the manager is being made fully aware of that by the Football Gods. Unfortunately, once the players have gone it is impossible for a manager to pull them back, and I fear that's what's happened here. He can't threaten them with selling them on becuase they know that the chances are he won't be here long enough, he can't threaten them with leaving them out of a winning team because we aren't one and he's desperate for results. It was always going to extremely difficult for any team who fell out of the title race to keep their players on the job in hand and not on the World Cup, and so it has proved.

For a long time now the players have looked to me like they fancy a change of direction, and once that happens then the writing is on the wall with a vivid marker. Rafa is a competitive man and a good manager, what will be hurting him the most is not only thre realisation that his project is very likely not going to come to fruition, but also there is the increasing likelyhood that his reign as a whole is begining to look like it has been significantly less than impressive.

I've been accused of not calling a spade a spade so I'll say it loud and clear, I think we should get rid. That part of me feels sympathy for the man during that interview probably means I'll be accused of "lacking passion", but there it is. Any human being couldn't watch that and not feel sympathy for the bloke. If it is the case that we can't actually afford to get rid and he must remain as the manager, then I hope something turns up for him soon and we miraculously turn it around.

by **Owzat** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:25 am

Unfortunately he's too stubborn to walk and so he is effectively inflicting this on himself. When the highest place side you've beaten away is 15th, and you've only beaten one side in the top half, it is time to make a change. We were thinking we'd beat pompey and Wolves, I'm not sure we will beat Wolves and if we lose then it will be the worst first 19 Premiership games for Liverpool FC.

He can't ring the changes, he won't ring the changes. He won't change defensive system, he won't change formation. He won't drop players like Kuyt and Lucas, he won't risk Aquilani. Most of his problems are self inflicted, he's left himself no room to manoeuvre and the only real media interest in us is speculation about his future. Normally I'd expect our defeat to be classed a shock and be top of the bill on MOTD, it was only the third biggest story behind the mancs losing at Fulham with no defenders and Citeh's result when in fact they just wanted to pick the bones out of the post-match breaking headline. If it weren't for the fact there are so many televised slots at the weekend, two on Saturday, two on Sunday and one on Monday, I doubt we'd be on TV half as much.

by **NANNY RED** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:05 pm

Ciggy wrote:
fivecups wrote:Rafa's post match interview

Very sad. He can hardly speak. Sad times.

I know, its horrible to see him like this.

I hadnt seen that Cigg, Fecking hell i wish he would just walk now, tbh, i cant stand the ammount of turmoil , disrespect from players, an backstabbing thats going on anymore, i love an respect the man to much to see him like that, I dont want to see him humiliated any more , and a few of our players need to have a look at themselves because they are involved in this , fECK IT rAFA LAD WALK AWAY MATE

by **devaney** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:06 pm

bigmick wrote:It's a cruel game sometimes, and unfortunately the manager is being made fully aware of that by the Football Gods. Unfortunately, once the players have gone it is impossible for a manager to pull them back, and I fear that's what's happened here. He can't threaten them with selling them on becuase they know that the chances are he won't be here long enough, he can't threaten them with leaving them out of a winning team because we aren't one and he's desperate for results. It was always going to extremely difficult for any team who fell out of the title race to keep their players on the job in hand and not on the World Cup, and so it has proved.

For a long time now the players have looked to me like they fancy a change of direction, and once that happens then the writing is on the wall with a vivid marker. Rafa is a competitive man and a good manager, what will be hurting him the most is not only thre realisation that his project is very likely not going to come to fruition, but also there is the increasing likelyhood that his reign as a whole is begining to look like it has been significantly less than impressive.

I've been accused of not calling a spade a spade so I'll say it loud and clear, I think we should get rid. That part of me feels sympathy for the man during that interview probably means I'll be accused of "lacking passion", but there it is. Any human being couldn't watch that and not feel sympathy for the bloke. If it is the case that we can't actually afford to get rid and he must remain as the manager, then I hope something turns up for him soon and we miraculously turn it around.

What bewilders me is why did G & H agree to a new 5 year contract before seeing how the 2008/9 season finished and how Benitez handled the Alonso situation. I said at the time it was a stupid piece of business and I stand by that!

by **NANNY RED** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:11 pm

From what i got told Rafa was holding out for 35 million for Xabi an got told to accept 30 mill by them two when it got offered,

by **J*o*n*D*o*e** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:30 pm

i think the stat 11 v 10 is probably the most important stat to look at if your looking at why we didnt win yesterday.

as bad as it was yesterday how many teams go a goal down then get a player sent off and then go on to win or even draw for that matter, i bet you its not many.

in our current form this was always going to be a difficult game so why do people think it was a given, portsmouth have played well recently and chelsea only managed to beat them midweek, plus they have a manager who knows how to play benitez.

had we been playing well going into this game and lost yesterday everyone would of blamed javier for the lose and moved on but as things are not great its just being used as another excuse to beat the manager with.

the final nail might well be about to fall but it shouldnt be after yesterdays game.

by **Cooney88** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:15 pm

Its easy to see that the tactics rafa is doing are not working the team he is picking are not doing the job like n'gog scores midweek chasein the game at pompey he brings on a young midfielder why bring on a midfielder any other manager would brought on a foward for me i think jobs the gun when we are loosing ya masch was sent off but pompey are bottem of the table i know were not going best moment but we are one best team's in world we should beat them with nine men i dunno sack him after xmas i say if we dont step up our game otherwise we wont even get in the europa cup next year ......

by **Keris** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:05 pm

NANNY RED wrote:
Ciggy wrote:
fivecups wrote:Rafa's post match interview

Very sad. He can hardly speak. Sad times.

I know, its horrible to see him like this.

I hadnt seen that Cigg, Fecking hell i wish he would just walk now, tbh, i cant stand the ammount of turmoil , disrespect from players, an backstabbing thats going on anymore, i love an respect the man to much to see him like that, I dont want to see him humiliated any more , and a few of our players need to have a look at themselves because they are involved in this , fECK IT rAFA LAD WALK AWAY MATE

Was thinking the same thing yesterday.

Go on Rafa, leave. For whatever your reason/s for holding out, forget it mate. It's not worth it anymore.

Liverpool FC needs a new start.
Rafa Benitez needs a new start.

by **made in UK** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:47 am

I've been accused of not calling a spade a spade so I'll say it loud and clear, I think we should get rid. That part of me feels sympathy for the man during that interview probably means I'll be accused of "lacking passion", but there it is. Any human being couldn't watch that and not feel sympathy for the bloke. If it is the case that we can't actually afford to get rid and he must remain as the manager, then I hope something turns up for him soon and we miraculously turn it around.

Agreed, every word.

Its funny to see how some have gone from pointing the finger at the owners to the players now. Their right in that respect; that players haven't turned up this season. But they'd be a reason for that.

by **Waldo** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:55 am

Had 2 days to reflect on Saturday's game, read all the articles online etc...

The players looked shot on Saturday and Rafa looks a broken man. Not one of the players got pass marks on Saturday. Well maybe Carragher gets a pass!! Torres and Gerrard didn't turn up and I am sorry but I think Mascha had to walk for that challenge as he clearly intended on hurting the pompey player. I cannot agree with Rafa'a comments that we played well in the 1st half, we were toothless.

You can accept that we are having a bit of a bad run but the worring thing for me is that certain players look like they have nothing left to give and have almost given up. The most obvious player is Gerrard!!!

by **Roger Red Hat** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:18 pm

I just cant get this "we played well in the first half" drivvle that he keeps coming out with. No Rafa! your wrong! When a Liverpool team played well in the first half, it generally meant we were in control and probably 2 - 0 up by half time. Rafa, losing 1 - 0 at half time to the bottom club in the league is NOT playing well.

so Manc City have jumped in head first and appointed Mancini as boss which is good news for us. If Rafa does fek off we wont end up with feking Mancini. :laugh:

they've missed they're chance to get close to winning the league by not offering Mourinho big bucks to manage them.

we are a poor team at the mo. need something to kick us up the ring but Im lost if I know what.

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