Liverpool FC Forum

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:26 pm

s@int wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:Well it seems it was the fittest team and strongest from the players who were fully match fit ready to go

FFS! I am not talking about one match, I am talking about season after season while he has been with us.

calm down S@int. no point losing your cool over some nobody.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:28 pm

Ok i have asked you on one thread to quit with the insults towards me and i will ask you again - Leave it out its adding nothing to both the thread or the forum - by all means make a refreshing change and add to the thread with something about the subject if not then leave the digs and insults out of it .

by **lakes10** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:32 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:
lakes10 wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:
lakes10 wrote:after the win last night i know some pro Rafa fans will be saying "in Rafa we trust"

but for me last night sums up why i dont trust Rafa, a 20 mil player given 10 mins at the end? yes he was fit but it was not the right sort of game for him.

a Sub that no one could work out

and our best striker that was fit was left on the bench till 67 min

and all on a night that was in front of the family of the best Manager ever.

last night shoul have been such an easy win but we almost cocked it up.

We have 6 games coming up in a very short time so any chances we get to let the top guys have a rest are well worth taking - we need the top players for the whole season not just the next game

I dont think the player that cost us 20mil will start allof them games.and i am strating to get the feeling he is not that good or is going very rusty from not playing, i have never known a player that has taken so long to get into a team once he was fit.and yes he is fit but Rafa think the games are not right for him.

If he had been out for a couple of weeks or a month or two i too would be a bit miffed but the lad was out for 7 months - thats a very long time to be out and to get back his sharpness - first time last night we saw real glimpses of his sharpness and his ability to link up with the rest of them and can see him getting more and more time as we progress.

ok point taken but how can he give him a star one game and then only 10 mins the next?

ok i know you will not be to tell me that as you are not him.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:35 pm

Depending on the opposition and what game it is mate - the Fiorentina game wasnt a must win crucial game so risk of playing him and him making a mistake due to rustyness was a lot less as there was less riding on the game where as a mistake in a prem game when stakes are high could set him back a bit .

Just my hazard at a guess .

It is frustrating knowing we paid a lot for him and seeing the odd few glimpses there but i know i would prefer him to be back to full sharpness and then ready to start - he for me seems to have improved every game he has played and the more he does the closer he gets to starting - i can see it happening either next game or the one after .

by **bigmick** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:59 pm

Well we did buy him for "five seasons not five weeks" or whatever the quote was. It's turned out that "five seasons not five months" would have been more accurate, but at east it does appear that he is fit. The problem we are going to have with him is not that they "aren't the right type of games/he might get injured again" as he could easily get injured in a five a side in training. The problem we are going to have with him I firmly believe is where we are going to play him and what we are going to ask him to do.

I don't think based on what I've seen of him so far that he is a genuine Premiership central midfielder in a 4-4-2 or a 4-4-1-1. I know people will say it's ridiculously too early and all that old b0ll0cks, but to me he isn't robust enough and offers nothing defensively. we might get away with him in a genuine 4-5-1 where Gerrard drops into central midfield and Aquilani pushes on, but I don't see him influencing games by a sufficient amount to justify dropping Gerrard from the Torres support role.

In a nutshell, he can't IMHO replace Lucas because he is so bereft of defensive presence, and he can't replace Gerrard because he isn't good enough. The only thing we can do in the longer term is tirelessly work with him in training and attempt to get him to a point where he can hold his own defensively. At the moment I am at a loss to decide what we have bought him for, and what sort of player we are hoping he is going to be.

To cut a long story long, I continue to have grave reservations about Alberto. Hopefully I'm miles off.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:04 pm

But wasnt one of the main people didnt like Lucas and Masher together in the middle is that they are both too defensive and one of them needs to be a bit mroe attack minded and worry less about the defending side of it all . . In got stuck in a few times last night and also got clattered once and got up ok ,. Xabi when he first started out wasnt very robust and didnt stick his foot in but he learnt to add that to his game .

by **bigmick** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:22 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:But wasnt one of the main people didnt like Lucas and Masher together in the middle is that they are both too defensive and one of them needs to be a bit mroe attack minded and worry less about the defending side of it all . . In got stuck in a few times last night and also got clattered once and got up ok ,. Xabi when he first started out wasnt very robust and didnt stick his foot in but he learnt to add that to his game .

I take it you mean one of the main REASONS..... and i'll assume you did, sorry if I'm wrong.

It was certainly the main reason I don't like Lucas and Masherano together, they both do the same thing (although Masherano obviously does it much better), there's no balance. You definately need somebody who plays more box to box, we need someone who can pass it, provide a goal threat, spread the play, cut defences open and all that sort of stuff.

Now the problem I have with Alberto, is that my take on him is that he's going to be a luxury player in the Premiership except he has vinyl upholstery with a fake wooden dashboard. He has the look of a stroller to me, a cruiser, a floater. Someone who drifts into space and influences the game with neat flicks and deflections. That's all well and good, but how much will those deflections add up to? Perhaps they'll help us in posession (I think they will over Lucas's contribution) but they won't help us enough to compensate for Alberto's complete lack of defensive prowess. If he was a Gerrard or a Lampard or a Fabregas or a Ronaldo, then yes his goals and direct assists are ample compensation for his "passengerness". Unfortunately from what I've seen though I have grave doubts that he is good enough to be that influencial.

It's easy to forget that quite apart from being an excellent passer, Alonso was a good defensive midfielder as well. He also developed a much more offensive edge to his game in his final season. To me, Alberto would be equally adept at the offensive side (equally not more adept), not anywhere near so good at the other aspects.

To cut a long story short, from what I've seen I think he struggles to get into the team on a long term basis unless he improves a lot defensively.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:27 pm

I can see what your seeing about him so far from the minutes he has played but im thinking that is more to do with finding his feet within the prem and the team - he does seem to like a few little flicks but he has also played a number of threaded balls through to people .

When i watched him for roma and the odd game for italy he was involved in the game a lot - they had de rossi playing the masher role (with a bit more passing involved) and the creative stuff coming from Aquilani and Totti . If Aquilani can strike up a good understanding with torres and gerrard then i can see him succeding with us . But can fully understand and see what your saying baout him .

by **NANNY RED** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:17 pm

redbeergoggles wrote:
lakes10 wrote:after the win last night i know some pro Rafa fans will be saying "in Rafa we trust"

"In Rafa we trust "

The Russian doll here saying In Rafa we trust :;):

by **DAV** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:50 pm

They only thing i do not understand is, RAFA's job is on the line. And lets face it the Wigan game was not a classic. Poor oppostion but also a poor Liverpool performance as well. Those kind of permances as shown this season so far have cost us points and will cost us alot more unless something changes. Its all well good the argument of "it will take the Italian time to adapt to the premiership". But we haven't got time. I really don't understand why RAFA hasn't just thrown him in at every oppotunity when being anything like fit. RAFA gambled on signing this guy so why not gamble on playing him??? As lets face it, we know Torres, Gerrard and few others are world class. We know other members of the team are very good players. But their is no confidence on the pitch.
The Italian could either help do what RAFA has PROMISED US "we will get 4th place". Or be a big part it costing the guy his job. Not the Italain's fault, but he is where our transfer funds went. So RAFA GAMBLE for god's sake

by **loopyliverpool** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:09 pm

How are people making such quick judgements on Aquilani's ability when we have seen so little of him is quite beyond me. He is being held back for whatever reason (my take is he isn't match fit... it takes time) and will need at least a hand full of games before we can pass any judgement on him. I'm hoping he fits in somewhat to the role Alonso left but we'll have to see.

by **DAV** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:13 pm

WE DON'T HAVE TIME

by **Owzat** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:11 am

He isn't going to get match fit sitting on the bench (unused) for six or whatever games it was in a row.

AQUILANI 09/10

28/10 15 mins vs Arsenal (LC)
31/10 not in squad vs Fulham
04/11 unused sub vs Lyon (CL)
09/11 8 mins vs Brum
21/11 unused sub vs Citeh
24/11 2 mins vs Debrecen (CL)
29/11 unused sub vs bitters
05/12 unused sub vs rovers
09/12 77 mins vs Fiorentina (CL)
13/12 25 mins vs Arsenal
16/12 10 mins vs Wigan

Unused sub four times, not even in the squad for Fulham (did he have a virus?) and three apps of less than 10 mins isn't going to do anything for his fitness. Playing short spells is more just risk him injuring himself trying to get into a game with little time to do so, or jogging for a few minutes and making no difference whatsoever. To get match fitness he needs to play more lots of 25 mins, not lots of odds and ends. He could have played more than he has. So far he has a record, such that it is given limited pitch time, of P6 W2 D1 L3. More's the point, how much difference can he make to results given limited chances so if he's not "match fit" enough to play more than he has, why have him on the bench at all if he's not going to be given playing time to get match fit?!?!?!?!? He will neither change a game, nor gain much match fitness, with 2, 8 or 10 mins on the pitch. Even 15 isn't going to make much difference to either. Rafa is compounding the problem by neither sticking nor twisting, annoying fans in the process who want to see a £20m footballer on the pitch not parked on the bench. Is it almost reminiscent of Keane at times when we'd be losing or not winning and he'd be left as an unused sub.......................? It's baffling, no wonder so many want him sacked when a lot of what he says and does makes no sense whatsoever

by **Ciggy** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:36 am

Guillam Balague

Why Liverpool are actually punching above their weight, despite what the critics are saying

Even the most pro-Rafa Benitez fans are losing faith and perhaps, on the surface, any other reaction appears illogical.

But what are the real reasons behind Liverpool’s decline? Results are the consequence of a complex set of circumstances behind the scenes, but the majority cannot see beyond the surface and what they wrongly perceive as simple failings at managerial level.

Voices in the media have decided in unison that Benitez is to blame and the Liverpool fans are starting to repeat that mantra – despite spending months accusing the press of an anti-Liverpool bias. Aside from the odd exception, the media is not anti-Rafa, nor are they to blame for the difficulties at Anfield. But they can lead opinion and have Benitez in their sights.

I’m afraid I cannot agree with the majority. Primarily, it’s worth remembering that Liverpool has one of the top managers in the world at the helm.

The figure of £280million that gets repeatedly churned out is deliberately misleading – and the fact is, Rafa has spent an average of £16m net for every year in charge at the club. It is absurd to think that Pep Guardiola or Jose Mourinho would be able to compete for a Premier League title with that expenditure.

I know for a fact that Mourinho is very well informed about the financial situation at Anfield: he knows that in order for Liverpool to compete at the top in the wealthiest league in the world, new investment is needed but there is nothing on the horizon. Consequently, it is neither an attractive proposition nor an option for Jose.

Liverpool has no money for January transfers, so Rafa’s target is to get key players - Gerrard, Torres and Aquilani – fit enough to contribute in a run of matches: allowing him to play his first choice team and notch up the four or five consecutive wins that will silence the critics.

If Liverpool were not called Liverpool, they’d be receiving praise for punching above their weight. The burden of history behind that name dictates the emotions of the fans and influences those who lead opinion. I would argue that, given the owners emphasis upon reducing the debt instead of improving the squad, this Liverpool side has been over-achieving rather than under-performing.

The manager has to work with inferior resources to every other club expected to win the title – lower even than some clubs expected to finish in the top six – and must therefore pull everything together to follow a steady path toward long-term success.

Liverpool football club is at a crossroads and, disappointingly, the allure of instant gratification is persuading too many fans that there must be some magical shortcut preferable to the road of steady progress down which Rafa is trying to lead the club.

[url=http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/guillem-balague/Why-Liverpool-are-actually-punching-above-their-weight-despite-what-the-critics-are-saying
-article260271.html?]http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion....1.html?[/url]

This is spot on everyone needs to read it.

by **Judge** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:37 am

s@int wrote:
Scottbot wrote:Gybs, it won't hurt every once in while to actually come out and 'Rafa, wot the fook are you doing!? that's bolllo...x that is!' instead of the company line. The whole Aquilani situation is totally mystifying. He would not have got on last night had we not scored the 2nd goal. It's like he will only get a decent amount of playing team if we are cruising 2/3 goals ahead or we are behind. It's so weird. Just play the lad from the start and lets sink or swim with him, the substitution of Aurelio for Lucas nearly cost us last night, and while we're at it, Why the foook is Aurelio starting the game ahead our new £20 million player!?

I agree Scott, I get a "Rafa wot the fook are you doing!" moment regularly.

I just wonder if Aquilani is not as fit as we think and Rafa is just giving him minutes here and there to relieve the pressure of having bought a player injured till Christmas.

I can't say I ever noticed Aquilani before we signed him, so I am not sure if his usual game involves any tackling, but he certainly hasn't since he came. Anyone know ?

aye, get rid of the one groove record playing the same rub up the wrong way tune

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