It is all about defence.. - Root of our problem

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Owzat » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:32 pm

stmichael wrote:it's fair enough but at the end of the day, after 13 games last season in the league we had conceded SEVEN goals. this season we have conceded twenty.

The main difference between the start this season and last is results. We were just as unconvincing last season, it was just the results went for us

08/09

Sunderland (a) W1-0 - 83rd minute Torres winner
Middlesboro (h) W2-1 - 86th minute og and 90th minute Gerrard winner
A Villa (a) D0-0
Man Utd (h) W2-1 - 77th minute winner
Stoke (h) D0-0
Bitters (a) W2-0 - Torres brace around the hour mark
Man City (a) W3-2 - scored twice after Zabaleta saw red
Wigan (h) W3-2 - two Kuyt goals after 80th minute after Valencia saw red
Chelsea (a) W1-0 - deflected Alonso goal
Portsmouth (h) W1-0 - 76th minute Gerrard penalty
Tottenham (a) L1-2 - from 1-0 up after 3rd minute Kuyt goal
WBA (h) W3-0 - against the whipping boys
Bolton (h) W2-0

We were more solid defensively (at times), but we were mainly lucky to get as many points as we did. How many reds were shown for fouls on Alonso? In the first five games we scored THREE WINNERS post-75th minute or it could have been as bad a start as this season if not worse.

Of course you can't ignore the 20 goals against, but we've scored more this season
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Postby Rush Job » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:44 pm

Owzat wrote:
milou wrote:
0-1 goals : P11 W2 D1 L8 (Won 18.18%)
2+ goals : P8 W6 D2 L0 (Won 75.00%)


Some interesting stats there mate.. another angle to look at things.

I broke down further and it reveal more about where our current problems lie.

<2009/2010>
2+ goals : P8 W6 D2 L0 (Win 75%, Draw 25%, Loss 0%)
1 goal : P8 W2 D1 L5 (Win 25%, Draw 12.5%, Loss 62.5%)
0 goals : P3 D0 L3 (Draw 0%, Loss 100%)

<2008/2009>
2+ goals: P31 W26 D3 L2 (83.9%, Draw 9.7%, Loss 6.5%)
1 goal : P16 W7 D7 L2 (Win 43.7%, Draw 43.7%, L12.5%)
0 goals : P8 D6 L2 (Draw 75% Loss 25%)

When we score 2 or more, you would naturally win majority of it, but we have drawn 2 out of 8 games (the recent 2-2 draws) this season.

When we score 1 goal, we have drawn too few and lost too many the season.

When we couldn't score, we have lost all matches bcos there have been no 0-0 so far this season.

It is our inability to keep clean-sheets that is costing us big time.

I disagree that clean sheets are the main problem, we've failed to score more than one goal in over half our games and that is a problem that only a solid defence could paper over, that is to say keeping clean sheets isn't something we'd need to rely on if the team scored 2+ goals and then we'd be winning the requisite 75% of games that might land us a league title.

We've scored 26 goals in those 8 games with 2+ goals (2x 2-2, 2x 3-2, 2x 4-0, 6-1 and 2-0, the rest of the time we've scored just 8 goals in 11 games and that is poor. Only twice this season have we conceded more than 2 goals, against villa at home and Fulham away.

Yeah mate.
We are playing like sh!te at the minute so we arent scoring enough and when we score we let in.
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Postby Sir Roger » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:11 am

stmichael wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:The most disappointing thing for me in the city match was the woeful defending in general. Not zonal or man to man marking but simple basic defending which seems to have disappeared since last season. Sktel must shoulder the majority of the blame for the first goal as he was caught ball watching instead of looking who was attacking the ball or who was basically unmarked. He was nearest and should have seen adebayour and dealt with him. Second goal was mostly his fault too as he allowed tevez to take the ball off him in the corner, then ran into the box only to ball watch again and allow ireland to stand all alone waiting for the cross from swp. To be fair Lucas was also guilty of allowing ireland to pass him and he was ball watching as well and did nothing to stop the ball getting to ireland.
This is schoolboy stuff and Rafa really should make them watch the video and point out that it was purely sloppy and poor defending which cost us the points. He should make them train and drum it into them that ball watching and therefore not being aware of players being unmarked is a cardinal sin and must be eradicated asap

It would have been interesting to see if Gray would have banged on about City's "zonal marking" had Lucas buried that header in injury time.

Anyway it's clear that we lack an airally dominant centre half, both attacking and defending. The greek is good in the air but Hyypia is still twice the player that he is.

Fair point
Alonso has been a big loss but Sammi's loss seems even greater
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Postby milou » Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:45 am

Even against such minnows, we were lucky to not have conceded last night. That sums it all doesn't it?

Our defence is in a mess now.. and Insua can't defend to save his life. It will take some huge revamps to our defence (system & players) for it to look anything even close to being decent again.

But I am afraid Rafa is too stubborn to change until it becomes too late.
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Postby Fat Guus » Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:21 am

Sir Roger wrote:
stmichael wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:The most disappointing thing for me in the city match was the woeful defending in general. Not zonal or man to man marking but simple basic defending which seems to have disappeared since last season. Sktel must shoulder the majority of the blame for the first goal as he was caught ball watching instead of looking who was attacking the ball or who was basically unmarked. He was nearest and should have seen adebayour and dealt with him. Second goal was mostly his fault too as he allowed tevez to take the ball off him in the corner, then ran into the box only to ball watch again and allow ireland to stand all alone waiting for the cross from swp. To be fair Lucas was also guilty of allowing ireland to pass him and he was ball watching as well and did nothing to stop the ball getting to ireland.
This is schoolboy stuff and Rafa really should make them watch the video and point out that it was purely sloppy and poor defending which cost us the points. He should make them train and drum it into them that ball watching and therefore not being aware of players being unmarked is a cardinal sin and must be eradicated asap

It would have been interesting to see if Gray would have banged on about City's "zonal marking" had Lucas buried that header in injury time.

Anyway it's clear that we lack an airally dominant centre half, both attacking and defending. The greek is good in the air but Hyypia is still twice the player that he is.

Fair point
Alonso has been a big loss but Sammi's loss seems even greater

Alonso's loss has been massive particulary with Aquilani injured who will I think fill his boots. Not having that 'quarter back' role filled hurts the entire team particulary defence, Mashcerano should have taken on this role more he has a better passing game then we see often, however another Rafa :censored: up thinking Lucas could do the Job whilst Aquilani gets fit. Letting Hyppia go to bring in the pony tail greek seems an error but it has to be said Carragher as hard as he tries is not getting the job done and is a back up player at best.
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Postby milou » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:55 pm

it's beyond belief really. arsenal didn't even play well FFS.
how many times had we led only to end up drawing or losing this season? i lost count.
i don't need no statistic to conclude that defence IS our problem.
forget about alonso.. it is arbeloa that i think we miss more bcos johnson can't defend for nuts.
we are :censored: doomed until we sort out out defensive problems!
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Postby Owzat » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:34 am

"It is all about defence" - poppycock, if I haven't said that previously as I get the feeling this thread is quite old.

We started the season poorly, no two ways about that. But here's a split that highlights our goalscoring problems and the knock-on consequence on results.

First 9 games : P9 W7 D0 L2 F24 A10 (Won 77.78%, CS 4)
Last 15 games : P15 W3 D4 L8 F15 A21 (Won 20.00%, CS 4)

Not much of an increase in goals against per game but a lot less goals per game (gpg), from 2.7 gpg for to 1.0 gpg for. Sure we are leaking more goals than we should be, but for the gpg againsts to be equal we'd only have to have conceded four less goals in the last 15 games compared to the extra TWENTY FIVE goals we would have had to have scored to maintain our goalscoring form. Of course it helped to play Burnley, Hull and Stoke in that lot which accounted for much of the difference, but how often have we scored more than one goal this season? Not enough is the answer, and if you score only one or zero goals in a game then you don't expect to win most of them

0-1 goals : P15 W3 D2 L10 (Won 20.00%)
2+ goals : P9 W7 D2 L10 (Won 77.78%)

Hey, exactly the same break as the above splits of 9 and 15 games. When we won 10 out of 11 at the tail end of last season we scored at over 3.0 gpg yet people still focus on the defence, a bit too much like Rafa at times. Goals win games, basic fact. If you don't score, you can't win - simples. We've lost FIVE games 2-1, three of those after taking the lead at home and leading 1-0 at half-time. Away we've equalised and lost the game early in the seconde half.

1-2 vs Tottenham (Prem) : equalised on 56 mins, conceded after 59
1-2 vs Lyon (CL) : took the lead on 41 mins, conceded after 72 and 90
1-2 vs Arsenal (LC) : equalised on 26 mins, conceded after 50
1-2 vs Fiorentina (CL) : took the lead on 43 mins, conceded after 63 and 90
1-2 vs Arsenal (Prem) : took the lead on 41 mins, conceded after 50 and 58

Sure a clean sheet would have won all those games, but you can't rely on not conceding in 45+ mins. The mancs perfected 1-0 in recent years based on late winners against sides not really looking for more than a point, to do what Sunderland did to us and defend for near 90 mins takes some doing which is why we've only won three games 1-0 and lost only one 0-1.

We won't win the league by trying to tighten the defence back up, it had been tight for a lot of previous seasons but it was only when we were top scorers in the league that we got really close to the Champions. What makes Chelsea and the mancs tight in defence (normally) ? Keeping possession, pressuring the opposition and a bit of luck. Why did the mancs lose at the weekend? Because villa were a rare sight in attacking their defence, like Sunderland did earlier in the season and nearly got a win they deserved. The mancs have conceded only two less goals than us at home in the league, but look at our goalscoring in Europe and we scored a laughable five goals in six games, we scored only two against whipping boys Debrecen while Lyon and Fiorentina knocked in 4 or 5 in both their games against the Hungarians. Last time I checked their respective leagues neither were in the top five so no great shakes.

Do we need a second striker to go 4-4-2? It would be an option, but I doubt Rafa will make the necessary switch of formation and if he did, there'd be clamouring for "proper wingers" and a "proper winger" of any quality would cost at least the combined £15m Kuyt and Benayoun cost. Why are they preferred in our current formation? Because they score goals which is crucial to the formation, having the wide players scoring to add to the goals from Torres and Gerrard.
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Postby milou » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:33 am

We won't win the league by trying to tighten the defence back up, it had been tight for a lot of previous seasons but it was only when we were top scorers in the league that we got really close to the Champions.


i don't agree.

we won't win the league (or anything for that matter) if we ONLY tighten the defence.. but neither will we by simply scoring more. we have to score more AND defend well.

like i said, i dun need no statistic to conclude that our defence is failing us MUCH MORE than our inability to score this season. i don't think most team would go on to LOSE their games as frequent as we do this season once they score first or equalize after going behind.

And don't even try to argue with me that clean-sheets don't matter.. if we keep clean-sheets just a bit more like we NORMALLY do, we wouldn't be in this mess.

You just simply cannot RELY on scoring 2 or even more in order to win games.

so is it attacking or defending which is the BIGGER problem?
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Postby Kerry07 » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:52 am

Alot of nonsense written.

Its not the defence thats the problem, its the mess infront of them in central midfield (likewise the defence wasnt the problem first half in Istanbul where we were loose in midfield without Hamann and gave Milan free reign to attack at will)

Look at BARCA.... their defence AND goalkeeper are VERY average... BUT, their midfield plays keep ball hence its not exposed.

If you have possession, you cant concede. Simples. With Alonso gone we no longer control the midfield.

Its our shambolic midfield that is killing us, we dont keep the ball, nor control midfield...so...

....our defence is under greater pressure, Reina has NEVER been busier
....our attack is not getting quality supply, we didnt have a single shot 2nd half vs Arsenal

Alonso leaving has been devastating.. we cant function until we find that link man again
Last edited by Kerry07 on Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby stmichael » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:24 pm

It hardly helps when we've had SIXTEEN different defensive combinations in the back four this season.

Carragher is still doing my head in with his aimless hoofing though. Aquilani must have been delighted to come on and see the ball flying over his head for half an hour.
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Postby Sir Roger » Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:12 pm

The last two games we conceded two sloppy goals. Darby messed up against Fiorentina, Johnson against arsenal. If the manager and the team have not or will not sit down and look at these problems on video we have got no chance of preventing them.
Woeful defending
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