Liverpool FC Forum

by **The_Rock** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:20 am

bigmick wrote:I must confess I'm getting a bit bored with all the name calling, the "simpleton" stuff and the like. Heimdall got a lot worse than that, and why people can't just accept that others hold a view which is different to theirs I'll never know. I think we are in severe danger of sleepwalking into a really poor place, I think the manager has been exposed as being below the standard which we need, but I totally accept that there are those who think that given time he will lead us to the promised land.

I even hope they're right. If the club do stick with him into next season I really do hope that the staunchest of his followers on here get every opportunity to tell the likes of me to stick it up our erses as we win the quadruple. I hope Rafa makes us go unbeaten in the league, and we win the Champions League final 5-0 against man Utd. I'd still be here, and I'd happily take all the sh!te which would deservedly come my way. Just because I and others don't think that outcome is likely though, it doesn't make anyone a "simpleton".

by **The_Rock** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:21 am

maguskwt wrote:So which clubs right now are realistically challenging for the league title? Chelsea and the Mancs. Financial situation compared to us?

Mick.....don't waste your time and energy responding to this "Mice humper".... :wwww

Back at ya...maguskwt

by **bigmick** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:24 am

maguskwt wrote:
bigmick wrote:This is where it all comes back to ambition really. If you, like the owners, believe that getting into the top four and the Champions League each season is what it's all about, knocking out the occasional big gun here and there, going on runs within a season where you look a really good team etc, then all is going reasonably well. If on the other hand you harbour ambitions to challenge for the Premiership year on year, to win other trophies along the way etc, then naturally the old trigger finger as far as the manager is concerned is getting a little twitchy.

So which clubs right now are realistically challenging for the league title? Chelsea and the Mancs. Financial situation compared to us?

A couple of points here. Firstly, we challenged for the title last season, so surely we proved then that we are capable of it. We finished above Chelsea, so once again we are capable of such things. That's not my opinion, that surely is a matter of fact. Equally, we did it despite Gerrard and Torres "only playing together on twelve occasions", or whatever the feck it was. So in terms of this season, it is true to say it is the Mancs and Chelsea, but in terms of who is actually capable of it, then surely we must be included in the equation as it's only about seven or eight months since we almost won it.

The key question here is not who is capable of it (because we all know we are) but why we were out of the race after ten matches. That, and nothing else, is the issue.

In terms of "finances", I think it would be harsh to say that given the fact that we've spent 90 odd million quid more than the Mancs since Rafa has been at Anfield, we really ought to be able to do much better than them. I think expecting us to compete with them is reasonable.

Once again we have proven that we can, we've beaten them the last three times we've played them. We've beaten Chelsea two out of the last three times we've played them. The key question once again is how we can beat the Mancs one week, and lose to Fulham the next. That's why i don't like the "finances" argument because it simplifies things too much. It would be very harsh on rafa to say Fulham should never be able to beat us, Birmingham should never be able to draw with us etc etc. It's more complicated than that.

Quite simply, are we maximising the resources available to us in terms of players which we have at the club? The answer IMHo is no.

by **maguskwt** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:33 am

bigmick wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
bigmick wrote:This is where it all comes back to ambition really. If you, like the owners, believe that getting into the top four and the Champions League each season is what it's all about, knocking out the occasional big gun here and there, going on runs within a season where you look a really good team etc, then all is going reasonably well. If on the other hand you harbour ambitions to challenge for the Premiership year on year, to win other trophies along the way etc, then naturally the old trigger finger as far as the manager is concerned is getting a little twitchy.

So which clubs right now are realistically challenging for the league title? Chelsea and the Mancs. Financial situation compared to us?

A couple of points here. Firstly, we challenged for the title last season, so surely we proved then that we are capable of it. We finished above Chelsea, so once again we are capable of such things. That's not my opinion, that surely is a matter of fact. Equally, we did it despite Gerrard and Torres "only playing together on twelve occasions", or whatever the feck it was. So in terms of this season, it is true to say it is the Mancs and Chelsea, but in terms of who is actually capable of it, then surely we must be included in the equation as it's only about seven or eight months since we almost won it.

The key question here is not who is capable of it (because we all know we are) but why we were out of the race after ten matches. That, and nothing else, is the issue.

In terms of "finances", I think it would be harsh to say that given the fact that we've spent 90 odd million quid more than the Mancs since Rafa has been at Anfield, we really ought to be able to do much better than them. I think expecting us to compete with them is reasonable.

Once again we have proven that we can, we've beaten them the last three times we've played them. We've beaten Chelsea two out of the last three times we've played them. The key question once again is how we can beat the Mancs one week, and lose to Fulham the next. That's why i don't like the "finances" argument because it simplifies things too much. It would be very harsh on rafa to say Fulham should never be able to beat us, Birmingham should never be able to draw with us etc etc. It's more complicated than that.

Quite simply, are we maximising the resources available to us in terms of players which we have at the club? The answer IMHo is no.

Like Penguin has just pointed it's about consistency bigmick... a bigger better squad can consistently win more games... every club goes through good form/bad form injuries and so on. It's about whether the club is equipped to deal with them. And there's no argument whatsoever that chelsea and the mancs are better in this department...

I don't think that those who factor in the finances more than others are saying that because we spend more money we need to beat the likes of fulham etc. You and I know that football doesn't work that way. Now that is being simple and you have just explained that it's more complicated than that which I wholeheartedly agree...

by **bigmick** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:33 am

I ask you this question. Had Ronaldo and Tevez played for us and we'd have lost them both, and had to pick up a striker on a free and a bloke off Wigan to replace them, making 62 million quid profit in the process, would we have been up there with Chelsea?

Would we b0ll0cks. We'd be a mile behind, whinging and whining about losing the best player in the World, how it is impossible to compete given the fact we'd just had to bank 60 million quid, talking about all the strikers we "could have signed" if only we didn't have to take a free transfer one etc etc. In their shoes, we'd be whinging about injuries and talking about the fact that all our defenders including the goalie but bar Evra are on the treatment table. How could we possibly compete given that?

Look at what they've done and contrast. They took Owen, when Valencia started unbelieveably poorly they stuck with him and Ferguson praised him up. They've successfully converted Giggs into a central midfieder, they've changed their system and formation post Ronaldo to compensate for losing him. They've been playing recently with Darren Fletcher, Michael Carrick and Park Ji Sung all in defence. They haven't played well, they aren't a particularly good team, they've lost some but they've won more. I don't actually think it'll be good enough to win them the Premiership as IMHo it's Chelsea's to lose, but at least they're having a fecking shot at it. They won their Champions League group, they're still in the Carling Cup. There's a lot of talk now about them signing Sol Campbell on a free.

That's the difference, some get on with trying to win stuff, find a way to win football matches and win trophies, others don't.

by **maguskwt** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:58 am

bigmick wrote:I ask you this question. Had Ronaldo and Tevez played for us and we'd have lost them both, and had to pick up a striker on a free and a bloke off Wigan to replace them, making 62 million quid profit in the process, would we have been up there with Chelsea?

Would we b0ll0cks. We'd be a mile behind, whinging and whining about losing the best player in the World, how it is impossible to compete given the fact we'd just had to bank 60 million quid, talking about all the strikers we "could have signed" if only we didn't have to take a free transfer one etc etc. In their shoes, we'd be whinging about injuries and talking about the fact that all our defenders including the goalie but bar Evra are on the treatment table. How could we possibly compete given that?

Look at what they've done and contrast. They took Owen, when Valencia started unbelieveably poorly they stuck with him and Ferguson praised him up. They've successfully converted Giggs into a central midfieder, they've changed their system and formation post Ronaldo to compensate for losing him. They've been playing recently with Darren Fletcher, Michael Carrick and Park Ji Sung all in defence. They haven't played well, they aren't a particularly good team, they've lost some but they've won more. I don't actually think it'll be good enough to win them the Premiership as IMHo it's Chelsea's to lose, but at least they're having a fecking shot at it. They won their Champions League group, they're still in the Carling Cup. There's a lot of talk now about them signing Sol Campbell on a free.

That's the difference, some get on with trying to win stuff, find a way to win football matches and win trophies, others don't.

Who is to say that we're not trying to win stuff? and we're not finding a way to win football matches and win trophies? I believe we are... it's not just turning out quite right this season. And our injuries have come much earlier than theirs. Theirs started what a week ago? And who is to say that they won't lose their form because of their injuries? Already they have just lost to Aston Villa. They have lost 4, we have lost 5. And all our first team players are now coming back healthy. Who is to say that after 38 games we will not be close to them? Who make judgement even before reaching halfway point of the season and the gap with the leaders is still only 12 points (10 points if we win today)? If we challenge for the title we are challenging the title despite our financial situation bigmick, not because of it. Because everyone with a common sense knows that every season, they rake in more money than us. And last season's efforts, that credit must go to Rafa.

And this thing about losing 60 millions of player value. You can't just look at it that way. They lost Ronaldo but they still have Rooney and Berbatov. If we lose Torres, who do we have? feckin egg nog the way you put it. Giggs to them is almost as inspirational as Gerrard to us. He is the leader, a pretty damn good footballer with lots and lots of experience. In midfield, they got carrick, scholes and fetcher to tide things over. We got a fake brazilian. By the way bigmick, how much did they pay for carrick, nani, owen hargreaves and anderson? 70-80 million? Do you think that if we can spend around 20 million each for most of our players we will be this worse off? And they are spending that amount on their role players not key players. Already we are seeing that those players close to 20 millions that rafa bought are a huge improvement over the usual price bracket we go for. Torres, Mascherano and Johnson all improved the team didn't they?

by **maguskwt** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:08 am

The Mancs were the league champions when Rafa was rebuilding the team. So a squad capable of winning the league compared to Houllier's squad, there is not argument who is better. On top of that they spent big bucks on Ferdiand, Rooney, Carrick, Nani, Hargreaves and Anderson. Rafa's critics only look at the buy value column of Rafa's transfer dealings. In actual fact Rafa had been selling and buying. There is no doubt which club had the advantage in building a title challenging squad. Only now because of their enormous debts Ferguson and curtailed the spending. This somehow make it seem that Rafa is spending more than Fergie. In actual fact Fergie already has a more valuable squad than rafa.

by **kazza** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:19 am

maguskwt wrote:The Mancs were the league champions when Rafa was rebuilding the team. So a squad capable of winning the league compared to Houllier's squad, there is not argument who is better. On top of that they spent big bucks on Ferdiand, Rooney, Carrick, Nani, Hargreaves and Anderson. Rafa's critics only look at the buy value column of Rafa's transfer dealings. In actual fact Rafa had been selling and buying. There is no doubt which club had the advantage in building a title challenging squad. Only now because of their enormous debts Ferguson and curtailed the spending. This somehow make it seem that Rafa is spending more than Fergie. In actual fact Fergie already has a more valuable squad than rafa.

This is absolutley correct and it has been said 1000 times yet critics still use it as if they never heard this before. You are wasting you time repeating it as proving their position is more important than the facts. No doubt we will hear the " we have outspent Utd" sh1t many more times just like we will hear that we lost 10 million in six months on Keane. laughable really.

by **lakes10** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:24 am

bavlondon wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:Wonder if fergie will be getting a slagging tomorrow for leaving a man who's just scored a hatrick out of the squad and losing again . Doubt it somehow.

Hopefully we will win. It will divert the attention away from us at least for a week so there is a good chance the papers will lay into him. But lose tomorrow and it will be Rafa bashing ctd.

mate we will win, theres no better manager than Rafa when it comes to playing the big clubs.

but i do worry about the game after that......it might end up a draw with Wigan and that would mean that todays result will mean nothing.

by **maguskwt** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:00 pm

The_Rock wrote:
bigmick wrote:I must confess I'm getting a bit bored with all the name calling, the "simpleton" stuff and the like. Heimdall got a lot worse than that, and why people can't just accept that others hold a view which is different to theirs I'll never know. I think we are in severe danger of sleepwalking into a really poor place, I think the manager has been exposed as being below the standard which we need, but I totally accept that there are those who think that given time he will lead us to the promised land.

I even hope they're right. If the club do stick with him into next season I really do hope that the staunchest of his followers on here get every opportunity to tell the likes of me to stick it up our erses as we win the quadruple. I hope Rafa makes us go unbeaten in the league, and we win the Champions League final 5-0 against man Utd. I'd still be here, and I'd happily take all the sh!te which would deservedly come my way. Just because I and others don't think that outcome is likely though, it doesn't make anyone a "simpleton".

yeah... worship your "Megatron", Rock. Because you can't argue anything for yourself except for dishing out simpleton remarks...

by **The_Rock** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:56 pm

maguskwt wrote:
The_Rock wrote:
bigmick wrote:I must confess I'm getting a bit bored with all the name calling, the "simpleton" stuff and the like. Heimdall got a lot worse than that, and why people can't just accept that others hold a view which is different to theirs I'll never know. I think we are in severe danger of sleepwalking into a really poor place, I think the manager has been exposed as being below the standard which we need, but I totally accept that there are those who think that given time he will lead us to the promised land.

I even hope they're right. If the club do stick with him into next season I really do hope that the staunchest of his followers on here get every opportunity to tell the likes of me to stick it up our erses as we win the quadruple. I hope Rafa makes us go unbeaten in the league, and we win the Champions League final 5-0 against man Utd. I'd still be here, and I'd happily take all the sh!te which would deservedly come my way. Just because I and others don't think that outcome is likely though, it doesn't make anyone a "simpleton".

yeah... worship your "Megatron", Rock. Because you can't argue anything for yourself except for dishing out simpleton remarks...

Whatever you win............... Now move along and do your thing (humping mices) :wwww

by **DAV** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:52 pm

thought i would get this on here before kick off
the italian again does not start. tactical genius my :censored:

.
i want us to win - but this is not on. 20 million quid for a guy who can start in europe but no in the league
F OFF RAFA

by **The_Rock** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:20 pm

DAV wrote:thought i would get this on here before kick off
the italian again does not start. tactical genius my .
i want us to win - but this is not on. 20 million quid for a guy who can start in europe but no in the league
F OFF RAFA

Agreed...... Its getting ridiculous. We are playing at home for christ's sake....

by **parchpea** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:51 pm

Had enough yet anyone? or is Rafa still the man to turn things around

by **Calum** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:53 pm

Shankly made Liverpool FC what it is today - Benitez is doing his best to destroy it. This situation can't go on any longer - it's embarrassing. Not one shot on target in the second half. We won't even finish in the top 4. Sack Benitez - NOW!

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Sack him. if you want the manager sacked - ...put your thoughts in here.

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