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Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby The_Rock » Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:54 pm

Got this from another forum......

Couldn't have put it better myself ..... except for the lucas and mascherano axis.... :wwww

In a nutshell.......yeah....we can use the $$$ example when we lose to chelsea or scrap a lucky draw with man city...

But to lose to fullham who spent less than us....surely u can't use the $$$ excuse ..


Of course Rafa's operating with financial constraints and couldn't buy all the players he wanted... it's a problem.

But at the same time, the games in which we've lost our points have come against teams we were already better than and still are better than. Unless the likes of Gerrard, Torres, Carra, Skrtel, Agger, Mascherano, etc. all went :censored: compared to the Bobby :censored: Zamoras of this world.

The only game we've lost where we could put our hands up and say "yup, they had better players as they've got shitloads more money than us" is against Chelsea.

It's not a big reason for our downfall.

More emphasis should be placed on the fact that there doesn't seem to be a winning mentality around the team. Instead of bouncing back after a set back we're more likely to dig deeper into the losing rut. Instead of pushing on from a big win we're more likely to :censored: it up in the next game.

That doesn't seem like a quality problem to me (indeed I'll argue against anyway saying we can't win the league with Torres, Gerrard, Mascherano, Carra, Reina, Agger, Johnson, Aurelio, Yossi, Kuyt etc). It's a problem with the way the team approaches games. There's no sense of confidence, no sense of belief and no sense of psychological edge. And that's why we're losing 3-1 against Fulham and Aston Villa when ordinarily we'd be the ones beating them by those scorelines.

The Man U match was a prime example of what the team can achieve if it actually wanted to. Every one of our players had a brilliant game because they were up for it. They fought for every ball, they expressed their quality and they really wanted it more than the Mancs. The only 2 players I've seen push on from that game have been Lucas and Mascherano- they're literally the only 2 players who you can point to in the side and say they built on that confidence. But we saw the team as a whole stick it's head back into the shell the next week when we were outdone by Fulham. And deserved to be outdone by Fulham.

It's easy to get yourself motivated for a Man U match, but it's what happens against the less glamourous teams that counts when you want to win a title. And we've not done it consistently at all (apart from the 10 game run at the end of last season and in Rafa's 2nd season when we finished 3rd).
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Postby kazza » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:52 pm

Ciggy wrote:The Liverpool manager also wanted to sign Stevan Jovetic from Fiorentina, before the Montenegro striker scored twice against his team in the Champions League, and Matthew Upson of West Ham, only to discover both were out of the club's financial reach. Asked if his net spend was nothing this summer, Benítez replied: "Yes."

What situation would be in had we signed those players, much better than we are no doubt.
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Postby Igor Zidane » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:53 pm

Wonder if fergie will be getting a slagging tomorrow for leaving a man who's just scored a hatrick out of the squad and losing again . Doubt it somehow.
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Postby tubby » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:58 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:Wonder if fergie will be getting a slagging tomorrow for leaving a man who's just scored a hatrick out of the squad and losing again . Doubt it somehow.

Hopefully we will win. It will divert the attention away from us at least for a week so there is a good chance the papers will lay into him. But lose tomorrow and it will be Rafa bashing ctd.  :Oo:
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Postby Penguins » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:57 pm

The_Rock wrote:Got this from another forum......

Couldn't have put it better myself ..... except for the lucas and mascherano axis.... :wwww

In a nutshell.......yeah....we can use the $$$ example when we lose to chelsea or scrap a lucky draw with man city...

But to lose to fullham who spent less than us....surely u can't use the $$$ excuse ..


Of course Rafa's operating with financial constraints and couldn't buy all the players he wanted... it's a problem.

But at the same time, the games in which we've lost our points have come against teams we were already better than and still are better than. Unless the likes of Gerrard, Torres, Carra, Skrtel, Agger, Mascherano, etc. all went :censored: compared to the Bobby :censored: Zamoras of this world.

The only game we've lost where we could put our hands up and say "yup, they had better players as they've got shitloads more money than us" is against Chelsea.

It's not a big reason for our downfall.

More emphasis should be placed on the fact that there doesn't seem to be a winning mentality around the team. Instead of bouncing back after a set back we're more likely to dig deeper into the losing rut. Instead of pushing on from a big win we're more likely to :censored: it up in the next game.

That doesn't seem like a quality problem to me (indeed I'll argue against anyway saying we can't win the league with Torres, Gerrard, Mascherano, Carra, Reina, Agger, Johnson, Aurelio, Yossi, Kuyt etc). It's a problem with the way the team approaches games. There's no sense of confidence, no sense of belief and no sense of psychological edge. And that's why we're losing 3-1 against Fulham and Aston Villa when ordinarily we'd be the ones beating them by those scorelines.

The Man U match was a prime example of what the team can achieve if it actually wanted to. Every one of our players had a brilliant game because they were up for it. They fought for every ball, they expressed their quality and they really wanted it more than the Mancs. The only 2 players I've seen push on from that game have been Lucas and Mascherano- they're literally the only 2 players who you can point to in the side and say they built on that confidence. But we saw the team as a whole stick it's head back into the shell the next week when we were outdone by Fulham. And deserved to be outdone by Fulham.

It's easy to get yourself motivated for a Man U match, but it's what happens against the less glamourous teams that counts when you want to win a title. And we've not done it consistently at all (apart from the 10 game run at the end of last season and in Rafa's 2nd season when we finished 3rd).

I have one big issue with that Argument. The league is like a marathon and eventually the strongest team wins. But during the race every strong team, even the eventual winners will have downturns during the race.

BUT the strongest team with the best squad and quality in players will have the fewest downturns during the season. You can argue the same about Chelski losing to Wigan and Manure to Burnley. Even if they had much better teams they lost.

BUT since in the long race those teams have fewer of those games than the competition, therefore they win.

By the logic above Manure, Chelski would maybe loose 3-4 games a season since they have a better squad than 95% of the league.
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Postby NANNY RED » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:25 am

I FCUUCKING LOVE OYUTR RAFA LIKE I DO , BECAUSE HE S OURS HES A SCOUIYUCER

I LOVE YOU RAFS LAD
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Postby account deleted by request » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:22 am

It might be Rafa's fault
Sunday December 13 2009

Arsene Wenger will not tolerate any suggestions of a two-horse race for the Premiership title while Rafa Benitez believes Liverpool's season can start in earnest today at Anfield.

Wenger's protestations are understandable -- there are still 23 matches to play and a decent run of form for Arsenal could put the London club in contention -- but it is difficult to extend that same logic to Benitez (pictured).

He has complained about Liverpool's finances, blaming money for the club's inability to compete in the Champions League or Premiership, and was unimpressed when Jurgen Klinsmann and Graeme Souness both compared Liverpool's problems to the collapse of Leeds United.

More pertinent to Liverpool's failings, however, might be Benitez himself. Liverpool could, of course, confound the sceptics and mount a sustained challenge in 2010, starting with a win over Arsenal today. But it would be easier to believe if Benitez had not started to make excuses before the half-way stage.

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Postby dawson99 » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:24 am

Igor Zidane wrote:Wonder if fergie will be getting a slagging tomorrow for leaving a man who's just scored a hatrick out of the squad and losing again . Doubt it somehow.

Hate to say it but the mancs are still int he champs league and are what, 3 points off top of the league?

Slightly different to how we are doing mate, hence the slagging off of our guy
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Postby bigmick » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:57 am

I think on here, on this thread there is more concensus than first appears. It seems to me it all comes down to what your ambition for the club actually is, as a fan/supporter/true fan or whatever else you call yourself.

Pretty much everyone it seems to me thinks we still have a really good chance of finishing in the top four. Some people think we are practically certainties, whereas others (and I'm in this category myself) think it will be very close but we'll probably just nick it. There's been a bit of ironic talk from some of Rafa's staunchest defenders about people saying "the end of the World is nigh" but I'm not sure many are actually saying that in reality. I did ask whether it was concieveable that we may not win the league for a very long time indeed, if infact ever, but strangely enough those people who seemingly consider getting into the top four to be the pinnacle of our ambition consider that to be an over statement of the reality. A couple of people wondered about the possibility of us "doing a Leeds" but I think in the main, most people expect us to probably get into the top four this season, and no doubt be in and around it next season as well.

This is where it all comes back to ambition really. If you, like the owners, believe that getting into the top four and the Champions League each season is what it's all about, knocking out the occasional big gun here and there, going on runs within a season where you look a really good team etc, then all is going reasonably well. If on the other hand you harbour ambitions to challenge for the Premiership year on year, to win other trophies along the way etc, then naturally the old trigger finger as far as the manager is concerned is getting a little twitchy.

I did read an interview on the internet with Rafa today where he talks about his "project" coming to fruition ("perhaps" I think he added) by the 2012-2013 season. I'm not sure exactly what he meant, but my guess is it means the five year plan has just become a ten year one. No doubt it's entirely coinciudental that the end of the plan coincides with the time when the contract is running down and we'd be in the process of negotiating a new one for him. He does "love the club" of that there is no doubt, in his shoes so would I should think.
Last edited by bigmick on Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby maguskwt » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:09 am

Penguins wrote:
The_Rock wrote:Got this from another forum......

Couldn't have put it better myself ..... except for the lucas and mascherano axis.... :wwww

In a nutshell.......yeah....we can use the $$$ example when we lose to chelsea or scrap a lucky draw with man city...

But to lose to fullham who spent less than us....surely u can't use the $$$ excuse ..


Of course Rafa's operating with financial constraints and couldn't buy all the players he wanted... it's a problem.

But at the same time, the games in which we've lost our points have come against teams we were already better than and still are better than. Unless the likes of Gerrard, Torres, Carra, Skrtel, Agger, Mascherano, etc. all went :censored: compared to the Bobby :censored: Zamoras of this world.

The only game we've lost where we could put our hands up and say "yup, they had better players as they've got shitloads more money than us" is against Chelsea.

It's not a big reason for our downfall.

More emphasis should be placed on the fact that there doesn't seem to be a winning mentality around the team. Instead of bouncing back after a set back we're more likely to dig deeper into the losing rut. Instead of pushing on from a big win we're more likely to :censored: it up in the next game.

That doesn't seem like a quality problem to me (indeed I'll argue against anyway saying we can't win the league with Torres, Gerrard, Mascherano, Carra, Reina, Agger, Johnson, Aurelio, Yossi, Kuyt etc). It's a problem with the way the team approaches games. There's no sense of confidence, no sense of belief and no sense of psychological edge. And that's why we're losing 3-1 against Fulham and Aston Villa when ordinarily we'd be the ones beating them by those scorelines.

The Man U match was a prime example of what the team can achieve if it actually wanted to. Every one of our players had a brilliant game because they were up for it. They fought for every ball, they expressed their quality and they really wanted it more than the Mancs. The only 2 players I've seen push on from that game have been Lucas and Mascherano- they're literally the only 2 players who you can point to in the side and say they built on that confidence. But we saw the team as a whole stick it's head back into the shell the next week when we were outdone by Fulham. And deserved to be outdone by Fulham.

It's easy to get yourself motivated for a Man U match, but it's what happens against the less glamourous teams that counts when you want to win a title. And we've not done it consistently at all (apart from the 10 game run at the end of last season and in Rafa's 2nd season when we finished 3rd).

I have one big issue with that Argument. The league is like a marathon and eventually the strongest team wins. But during the race every strong team, even the eventual winners will have downturns during the race.

BUT the strongest team with the best squad and quality in players will have the fewest downturns during the season. You can argue the same about Chelski losing to Wigan and Manure to Burnley. Even if they had much better teams they lost.

BUT since in the long race those teams have fewer of those games than the competition, therefore they win.

By the logic above Manure, Chelski would maybe loose 3-4 games a season since they have a better squad than 95% of the league.

don't waste your energy explaining it to a simpleton... :shifty
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Postby bigmick » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:09 am

It's in the Sunday Times is the article I'm referring to. here's a couple of bits:

Their long trophy droughts may be causing Wenger and Benitez to see things. Benitez offers a menu of explanations why Liverpool, once again, stand adrift in the Premier League, mainly concerning injuries and money. Yet every club is afflicted by knocks — United played in midweek with 13 players on the treatment table. Benitez is on stronger ground citing finances, given United’s income in the four years to 2008, when last accounts were published, was €360m (£323m) greater than the Anfield club’s.  How far this has influenced playing matters is debatable, however, with Liverpool spending a net £95m more on transfers than United since 2004 .

After revamping the club’s academy in summer, Benitez believes he can put Liverpool on a level footing with United and Chelsea by borrowing from Wenger’s blueprint. “The philosophy of Arsenal is to try and bring young players and improve them and we have to do something similar because you see the different ways and financial processes of these teams [Chelsea and United]. We are improving but we will need time,” he said.

How much time? Benitez, in his sixth season at Anfield, says the promised land can be reached “hopefully before” the end of season 2013-14, when the five-year contract he signed in March elapses .


It's an interesting article anyway, not "pro" or "anti" especially, just interesting. Here's the link to it although it'll probably not work when I do it:


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol....415.ece
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Postby The_Rock » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:09 am

bigmick wrote:I did read an interview on the internet with Rafa today where he talks about his "project" coming to fruition ("perhaps" I think he added) by the 2012-2013 season. I'm not sure exactly what he meant, but my guess is it means the five year plan has just become a ten year one. No doubt it's entirely coinciudental that the end of the plan coincides with the time when the contract is running down and we'd be in the process of negotiating a new one for him. He does "love the club" of that there is no doubt, in his shoes so would I should think.

:wwww  ......   :p
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Postby The_Rock » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:11 am

maguskwt wrote:don't waste your energy explaining it to a simpleton... :shifty

Stick to humping mices........  :wwww

So you have changed your avatar haven't you....you wanna keep that a secret don't ya....  :p
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Postby maguskwt » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:16 am

bigmick wrote:This is where it all comes back to ambition really. If you, like the owners, believe that getting into the top four and the Champions League each season is what it's all about, knocking out the occasional big gun here and there, going on runs within a season where you look a really good team etc, then all is going reasonably well. If on the other hand you harbour ambitions to challenge for the Premiership year on year, to win other trophies along the way etc, then naturally the old trigger finger as far as the manager is concerned is getting a little twitchy.

So which clubs right now are realistically challenging for the league title? Chelsea and the Mancs. Financial situation compared to us?
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Postby bigmick » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:16 am

I must confess I'm getting a bit bored with all the name calling, the "simpleton" stuff and the like. Heimdall got a lot worse than that, and why people can't just accept that others hold a view which is different to theirs I'll never know. I think we are in severe danger of sleepwalking into a really poor place, I think the manager has been exposed as being below the standard which we need, but I totally accept that there are those who think that given time he will lead us to the promised land.

I even hope they're right. If the club do stick with him into next season I really do hope that the staunchest of his followers on here get every opportunity to tell the likes of me to stick it up our erses as we win the quadruple. I hope Rafa makes us go unbeaten in the league, and we win the Champions League final 5-0 against man Utd. I'd still be here, and I'd happily take all the sh!te which would deservedly come my way. Just because I and others don't think that outcome is likely though, it doesn't make anyone a "simpleton".
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