The truth is we just can't afford to change manager any time soon. Rafa has a £5million a year contract for the next five years, how much would it cost to sack him? Mourinho is on a huge contract with Milan and even if he would take a drop in salary to join us ...... could we afford him?
The only time when Rafa's job may be threatened is if and when we are ever sold.
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by GYBS » Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:40 pm
I think he would give his soul to hear him adulated by the fans but i think that is another reason why i wouldnt want him rbg - he wants to be adored by fans , i think he wants his ego massaged and hearing his name chanted would massage his ego perfectly BUT and a big but i dont think large areas of the fans would ever give him that adulation due to past history and the disrespect he has shown the club and fans in the past - those sort of things never get forgotten . Also i dont think he would come due to us due to that lack of ability to get the players he wants - we dont have the financial backing for that .
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by redbeergoggles » Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:43 pm
s@int wrote:The truth is we just can't afford to change manager any time soon. Rafa has a £5million a year contract for the next five years, how much would it cost to sack him? Mourinho is on a huge contract with Milan and even if he would take a drop in salary to join us ...... could we afford him?
The only time when Rafa's job may be threatened is if and when we are ever sold.
True enough Saint
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by redbeergoggles » Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:52 pm
GYBS wrote:I think he would give his soul to hear him adulated by the fans but i think that is another reason why i wouldnt want him rbg - he wants to be adored by fans , i think he wants his ego massaged and hearing his name chanted would massage his ego perfectly BUT and a big but i dont think large areas of the fans would ever give him that adulation due to past history and the disrespect he has shown the club and fans in the past - those sort of things never get forgotten . Also i dont think he would come due to us due to that lack of ability to get the players he wants - we dont have the financial backing for that .
Never said I wanted him Gybs ,merely indicated I am not as yet totally ready to discredit him in a managerial capacity .
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by GYBS » Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:54 pm
wasnt saying you wanted him mate 
was just expressing my opinion on why i think he would want the job or wouldnt want the job .
For me maureens main concern has always been himself and no one else - him comes first in his ideas and not the club he is managing - for me i think he views the club he is managing is just a vehicle to make him more "special" .
Thats where i thing rafa differs - for him the main thing is the club
was just expressing my opinion on why i think he would want the job or wouldnt want the job .
For me maureens main concern has always been himself and no one else - him comes first in his ideas and not the club he is managing - for me i think he views the club he is managing is just a vehicle to make him more "special" .
Thats where i thing rafa differs - for him the main thing is the club
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by redbeergoggles » Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:19 pm
I totally agree Gybs ,but its becoming increasingly harder to not simply accept as a given ,that he may just have that touch of genius .
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by bigmick » Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:35 pm
redbeergoggles wrote:I totally agree Gybs ,but its becoming increasingly harder to not simply accept as a given ,that he may just have that touch of genius .
Oh it's not that difficult to deny it all Red, they've denied it in the past despite fairly conclusive evidence to the contrary. He won the UEFA Cup and Champions League in successive seasons at Porto during this decade and they denied it.
He took over a team which hadn't won the title in a few seasons, spent little or no money and instantly transformed them into domestic and Eurpean Champions and they denied it.
He took over at Chelsea and had more of a one year plan than a five year one. They hadn't won the title for decades but they did with Mourinho in charge. In his FIRST season he stuck sixteen points (SIXTEEN) on top of Claudio Ranieri's best efforts and won the Premiership with a record haul of points. They denied it then because he bought Didier Drogba for 24 million quid, Michael Essien for 26 million quid etc. "Anyone can do it" apparently, so they denied it.
Apparently buying players and getting them to gel into an ulta efficient unit who can rack up win after win and set a record points total for the Premiership at your first attempt is a piece of p!ss, so they denied it.
Then he went to Italy and for the third time in a row at a new club won the title in his first season, p!ssed the title in fact. They denied it in Italy, because apparently it's a piece of p!ss to win the title if you take over a team who was good before you came. Anyone can do it by all accounts.
So it's not that difficult to deny it mate, people still will. I still often see people on here referring to Mourinho "buying" success, being way overrated etc. He could win the Champions League and treble domestically with Inter, come back to England and do the same with Man City before just for a laugh taking the Rochdale job and getting them into the Premiership and they'd still deny it.
"Tactically inept" you see mate, he'll never be as good as some
."se e in una bottigla ed e bianco, e latte".
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by bigmick » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:39 pm
GYBS wrote:mick just marrying him and get it over and done with - saves us having to read the same public love in you have we him . boring as feck now .
I find this an astonishing post on many levels. I was replying to a point Red made about it becoming "harder to not accept as a given" some things about Mourinho, and you come abseiling through the front room window, AK47 with the safety catch thumbed off talking about things being "boring". A couple of points. Firstly, whilst I know and appreciate that you are a fully paid up enforcer of the thought police and blanket thrower in chief, this is the Mourinho thread where people are generally going to discuss Mourinho (until some numpty tries to derail it they are anyway).
I happen to think Mourinho is quite a good manager, and in the Mourinho thread surely I'm allowed to say so
In a similar way on the Kuyt thread you are keen to extoll his virtues, and on the Lucas thread you are more than welcome to wax lyrical about your tousle haired Brazillian.And wax lyrical you do, lets be honest. Different threads present no boundaries to the commander in chief as you vault from discussion to discussion, face blackened and weapon cocked, ready to rat-a-tat-tat anyone who doesn't worship at your particular alter into submission at best, or into a bemused stupor at worst.
So if you wish to add to your already considerable input on the subject in hand on this thread please go ahead, but don't try and derail another one please. And don't have the cheek to call anybody else's posting style boring either, sheesh
You should re-read some of your input on the first few pages of this thread mate
I do admire your front for showing your face in the thread again, blackened or not.Last edited by bigmick on Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"se e in una bottigla ed e bianco, e latte".
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by bigmick » Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:13 am
maguskwt wrote:Ok Mick... just tell us, do you think Mourinho is better than Rafa?
I wouldn't even dare to comment on such a question Magus, God only knows what would happen."se e in una bottigla ed e bianco, e latte".
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by Owzat » Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:16 am
How many managers do get too much credit for "tactics" when throwing on multimillion pound substitutes, having the most expensive squad in the league, having all at their disposal etc? Jose deserves credit for winning the CL with Porto but that's about it, and even then it's not something THAT special since it is only a cup competition albeit with two-legs most of the way. Porto are the best side or one of the best in Portugal, depends on the season, while at Chelsea he had heaps of money and Inter were already a strong side in Italian football when he took over.
fergie gets way too much credit for his achievements with the mancs. Fair enough they were nowhere, and HE almost got them relegated. But when they first won the league they had one of the most expensively assembled squads in the league and no real rivals to speak of - they'd bought Leeds' best player, we were rubbish and Arsenal were going through a dip so it was BLACKBURN ROVERS and NEWCASTLE UNITED that posed his main threat until Wenger came along and upset his applecart since when he's won seven of the last 12 league titles - three since Chelsea imploded. Most of my credit to fergie comes from winning the SPL with Aberdeen in the face of old infirm domination, and a European trophy. As a manager since he's not tested himself, had one of the most expensive squads plus some of the best kids in the land drawn to the club or poached, hardly performing miracles any more than Jose did. His last three titles have been in no small part down to Cristiano Ronaldo, without whom they've continued to win but not convincingly and even lost to lowly Burnley. Maybe they will best their city rivals as a team is more than an assortment of individuals yet to gel properly and with a cr ap manager. But if spacky does win then it will further prove the point about money.
But fair play to fergie in terms of getting started in the Premiership. He did what couldn't be done anymore, bought the best player from two big name rival clubs in Cuntona from Leeds (reigning champs) and thug from Forest (good team then under Clough) That would be like us buying Ronaldo from the mancs last season for say £7m and Fabregas from Arsenal for £13m. £1.5m and £3.75m were sizeable fees in those days, but even so £1.5m for the best player of the Champions is silly and Leeds were stupid to sell. The Keane deal was better for the selling club, but still a relative bargain since fees had already gotten to around the £2m-£3m mark, we sold Rush and bought him back around four seasons earlier for just under £3m. fergie also got in bargains in Irwin for less than a million, and Schmeichel for £500k. Add to that one of the more expensive CBs in Pallister who cost about £2.3m and you have a fairly expensive assembled squad. To put the Pallister fee into perspective, it isn't much less than Sami cost a good five years later. He later filled in the flanks with Beckham and Giggs who cost nothing, Scholes in midfield and nobhead at RB. Those four alone would probably have cost the best part of £30m-£40m if bought around 1996 which was about the cost of a good XI in 97/98. The most expensive XIs in 97/98 were £45m Man Utd, £28m Liverpool, £32m Arsenal and £39m Chelsea. Consider how much the manc XI could have cost had Giggs, Beckham, Scholes and nobhead been given transfer values. Quite probably it could have doubled the cost of their XI and put them way ahead of the rest who had no youth players of that kind of standard.
So in essence, managers who win the league have normally spent enough to make it not such the big achievement they get credit for. I give more credit to Kenny for taking Blackburn up, and winning the league. Fair enough he spent a fair amount on players, but Liverpool and Man Utd spent more and the signing of Shearer (£3.3m) was as clever as signing Cuntona had been for the mancs but with a lot less recognisition. Maybe again a silly sale on the part of Southampton this time, but to take a side from lower league to Premiership and convert them to champions is something that possibly won't be achieved again.
I give Arsene Wenger more credit than Jose certainly, to win the league in the face of clubs with vastly superior funding/resources, and to reach the Champions League final in the same scenario is admirable. He sells key players because he has to, but still they are there or thereabouts (top four certainly).
Wenger > fergie > Jose
fergie gets way too much credit for his achievements with the mancs. Fair enough they were nowhere, and HE almost got them relegated. But when they first won the league they had one of the most expensively assembled squads in the league and no real rivals to speak of - they'd bought Leeds' best player, we were rubbish and Arsenal were going through a dip so it was BLACKBURN ROVERS and NEWCASTLE UNITED that posed his main threat until Wenger came along and upset his applecart since when he's won seven of the last 12 league titles - three since Chelsea imploded. Most of my credit to fergie comes from winning the SPL with Aberdeen in the face of old infirm domination, and a European trophy. As a manager since he's not tested himself, had one of the most expensive squads plus some of the best kids in the land drawn to the club or poached, hardly performing miracles any more than Jose did. His last three titles have been in no small part down to Cristiano Ronaldo, without whom they've continued to win but not convincingly and even lost to lowly Burnley. Maybe they will best their city rivals as a team is more than an assortment of individuals yet to gel properly and with a cr ap manager. But if spacky does win then it will further prove the point about money.
But fair play to fergie in terms of getting started in the Premiership. He did what couldn't be done anymore, bought the best player from two big name rival clubs in Cuntona from Leeds (reigning champs) and thug from Forest (good team then under Clough) That would be like us buying Ronaldo from the mancs last season for say £7m and Fabregas from Arsenal for £13m. £1.5m and £3.75m were sizeable fees in those days, but even so £1.5m for the best player of the Champions is silly and Leeds were stupid to sell. The Keane deal was better for the selling club, but still a relative bargain since fees had already gotten to around the £2m-£3m mark, we sold Rush and bought him back around four seasons earlier for just under £3m. fergie also got in bargains in Irwin for less than a million, and Schmeichel for £500k. Add to that one of the more expensive CBs in Pallister who cost about £2.3m and you have a fairly expensive assembled squad. To put the Pallister fee into perspective, it isn't much less than Sami cost a good five years later. He later filled in the flanks with Beckham and Giggs who cost nothing, Scholes in midfield and nobhead at RB. Those four alone would probably have cost the best part of £30m-£40m if bought around 1996 which was about the cost of a good XI in 97/98. The most expensive XIs in 97/98 were £45m Man Utd, £28m Liverpool, £32m Arsenal and £39m Chelsea. Consider how much the manc XI could have cost had Giggs, Beckham, Scholes and nobhead been given transfer values. Quite probably it could have doubled the cost of their XI and put them way ahead of the rest who had no youth players of that kind of standard.
So in essence, managers who win the league have normally spent enough to make it not such the big achievement they get credit for. I give more credit to Kenny for taking Blackburn up, and winning the league. Fair enough he spent a fair amount on players, but Liverpool and Man Utd spent more and the signing of Shearer (£3.3m) was as clever as signing Cuntona had been for the mancs but with a lot less recognisition. Maybe again a silly sale on the part of Southampton this time, but to take a side from lower league to Premiership and convert them to champions is something that possibly won't be achieved again.
I give Arsene Wenger more credit than Jose certainly, to win the league in the face of clubs with vastly superior funding/resources, and to reach the Champions League final in the same scenario is admirable. He sells key players because he has to, but still they are there or thereabouts (top four certainly).
Wenger > fergie > Jose
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by bigmick » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:56 am
Just bumping this thread for penguins in case he can't find it. He clearly hasn't read it judging by the fact he keeps going on about Mourinho only being any good when he spends 100's of millions of pounds. Round about pages one to six are the most interesting, but there's some good points throughout.
On the subject of Mourinho, it'll be interesting to see if he can match his achievement at BOTH Chelsea and Porto of winning the title in both of his first two full seasons at the club.
At Porto he won them their first title in four seasons without spending any money, before following it up with the title the following season (he also won the UEFA Cup and the Champions League in consecutive seasons while he was doing it, but that's another story).
At Chelsea as we know in his first season he set a Premiership record with 96 points (which still stands to this day) and in so doing put 17 points on top of Ranieri's best effort. he even managed to better the points total of the previous years winners (Arsenal's invincible team) by 5 points, which was some going. He did though spend some money as is often reported on here. He bought Drogba, and Essien, and Carvallho etc. Fairly good to outstandingly good buys as it turned out but they did cost money. Anyway he also managed to win the league the following season as we know.
His latest project is at inter Milan, where predictably he won the title in a canter in his first season. Unlike his other two clubs, on this occasion he was taking over an already successful team but I suppose all you can do is win the thing. This term might be harder. They've sold on their star striker Ibrahimovic for a huge profit, and the general feeling is that the Italian League is more competitive this term, arguably with better quality teams. Certainly if Fiorentina's performance against us is anything to go by, it's not too bad.
Anyway a quick update. Inter were beaten a couple of weeks back away at Sampadoria (unsurprisingly it wouldn't have been at Home as Mourinho's teams haven't lost a Home league game in 8 years or something fecking ridiculous, incluing his spells at Porto, Chelsea and Inter). Anyhow they lost 1-0, but have managed to bounce back by winning their next three. Currently they are top of the table joint on points with Sampadoria.
To win the title in consecutive seasons with three different clubs at the first time of asking would be a decent football achievement I think, and I'll keep everyone up to date how the attempt is going as the season progresses.
On the subject of Mourinho, it'll be interesting to see if he can match his achievement at BOTH Chelsea and Porto of winning the title in both of his first two full seasons at the club.
At Porto he won them their first title in four seasons without spending any money, before following it up with the title the following season (he also won the UEFA Cup and the Champions League in consecutive seasons while he was doing it, but that's another story).
At Chelsea as we know in his first season he set a Premiership record with 96 points (which still stands to this day) and in so doing put 17 points on top of Ranieri's best effort. he even managed to better the points total of the previous years winners (Arsenal's invincible team) by 5 points, which was some going. He did though spend some money as is often reported on here. He bought Drogba, and Essien, and Carvallho etc. Fairly good to outstandingly good buys as it turned out but they did cost money. Anyway he also managed to win the league the following season as we know.
His latest project is at inter Milan, where predictably he won the title in a canter in his first season. Unlike his other two clubs, on this occasion he was taking over an already successful team but I suppose all you can do is win the thing. This term might be harder. They've sold on their star striker Ibrahimovic for a huge profit, and the general feeling is that the Italian League is more competitive this term, arguably with better quality teams. Certainly if Fiorentina's performance against us is anything to go by, it's not too bad.
Anyway a quick update. Inter were beaten a couple of weeks back away at Sampadoria (unsurprisingly it wouldn't have been at Home as Mourinho's teams haven't lost a Home league game in 8 years or something fecking ridiculous, incluing his spells at Porto, Chelsea and Inter). Anyhow they lost 1-0, but have managed to bounce back by winning their next three. Currently they are top of the table joint on points with Sampadoria.
To win the title in consecutive seasons with three different clubs at the first time of asking would be a decent football achievement I think, and I'll keep everyone up to date how the attempt is going as the season progresses.
Last edited by bigmick on Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
"se e in una bottigla ed e bianco, e latte".
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by babu » Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:46 am
Owzat wrote:Wenger > fergie > Jose
Read your post mate, but here's the kicker.
If Fergie and Wenger both retired today. In 20 years who would be considered the better manager?
The answer would of course be Fergie. That's becuase results, cups and league wins matter (no matter how they come).
Unfortunately if Maureen continues his midas touch, he will considered a truly great manager as well.
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