Liverpool FC Forum

by **GYBS** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:43 pm

right im guessing your just arguing for the sake of it now or just on a wind up - its clear to see the quality of our team back there was lacking - severly lacking and i expect pretty much most liverpool fans could see that .

we had players like traore,biscan,le tallec,baros,dudek etc - all sub standard players compared to what the other teams had .

by **aCe'** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:47 pm

by **bigmick** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:17 pm

Sabre wrote:
Absolutely love the thread, just re-read it. It's classic newkit, with thrust and counter thrust, abuse and innaccuracy competing with condescension and nonsense.

Isn't there a bit of condescension in your last comment on the insecurity you want to imagine in some posters in the last paragraph? (some posts have sneaqued within that post, I mean the one about Rafa staunch defenders)

Not that it affects me, far from it, it's just that I don't like it when some people snap you with harsh words at some points of the season, and I think that's the kind of line, which is perfectly unnecessary, later grow in the stomach of passionate people and at some point burst in the form of FFS!! or Barryesque posts with lots of exclamation signs.

That's the kind of thing that you could hardly detect in a post of yours in 2006 and is more frequent to see now. I know in the other hand that you receive your good dosis of abuse, bóllocks and fúckwittery too, and that you have been answered harshly even when making very valid points, but I really think that kind of lines that are probably aimed to one or two persons, might offend staunch Rafa defenders just because you mention them as a whole.

I don't think that the bias that is more than evident it exists here against Mourinho has anything to do with insecurity or Rafa himself. It has more to do with him being a coach of an archrival club for a long time, with everything that implies. In the case of Mourinho, to make things worse, he has said stupid things against us, and has done bad gestures to us. That's where the bias against Mourinho comes from. Let's not lose perspective of where hatred against Mourinho comes from for the 99% of the fans.

Anyway back to this and apolgies to all for briefly going off topic.

Yes I think there's a different tone to my posts now and what there was in 2006 mate, but much has happened in the interim. It's arguable in a chicken and egg sense I suppose whether any "condescention" came before or after any "abuse" I recieved, just as as it's arguable whether one is in proportion to another.

I would see it fairly obviously, that my response to being called the various things I've been called on here as often as I have, is appropriate. Similarly, there are many who would say it's an over-reaction and that I annoy the feck out of them.

The "barb" in this particular post though wasn't aimed at any poster or posters in particular, infact I would actually argue that it wasn't a barb. See from my point of view, the most frustrating thing about discussing any kind of subject with people is if they are so paralysed by dogma that they can't even accept the glaringly obvious. I'm simply trying to get a handle on why or how anybody could deny that Mourinho is a top manager.

as for galringly obvious, it would be patently ridiculous for example for any "anti" Rafa person to deny that we played brilliant football in the second half of last season. Why deny it, when it's fecking obvious? Why deny that the manager deserves a heap of credit along with the players?

Why deny also that Dirk Kuyt has made himself into a decent right midfielder? Once again, why deny it because it's obvious?

On the other side of the coin though, why deny that Mourinho is a top manager? If you don't think that people do/did, read the thread from the start. Why deny that Kuyt was poor up front, or that he has a dodgy first touch and no pace? I can't help on that one, but people do deny it.

Why deny that Rafa signed keane? Sorry can't help.

So when you are confronted with dyed in the wool dogma you have three options.

1. You can try and argue the point, and at least try and prize some sort of concession out of the other person. Peewee even would no doubt admit that Kuyt did pretty well last season for instance (if he were still here).

2. You can take the tried and trusted method of calling the other person a c..., or worse.

3. You can take the p!ss, hence the "fecking parry :angry:

" and the like.

I opt for numbers one and three myself, but I cop a fair bit of two on my travels.

I do take your point though mate, and you made it well. Nobody is perfect though, fecking definately not me, and provided everyone just agrees with me all the time from now on I'll try not to do it anymore

.

No seriously though, I hear you.

by **stmichael** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:37 pm

blimey maybe i shouldn't have bumped this thread yesterday. just for a change all hell has broken loose

by **bigmick** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:46 pm

It has, but the reason I like this thread is that by and large the debate stays of the knockabout variety. Yes the battle lines are old, and the trenches so embedded that they have electricity, running water and SKY TV, but as it's an evolving situation with Mourinho there's always a new angle. Obviously Barcelona's frankly stupifying trnasfer deal with inter was a plus for the Mourinho fans, while if he fails to win Serie A next season and probably make the last four in the Champions League, the detractors will be onto it and fair enough.

In the main it's a good thread.

by **redbeergoggles** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:15 am

I expect Mourinho to shun all the credit for that transfer ,owing to his shrinking violet persona .

I agree it was sensational ,but whether we will ever learn the true identity of the real architects behind the deal ,remains to be seen .

I don't for one moment presume Mourinho is not a competent manager ,but unless Liverpool meet Inter in the Champions League why would anyone care if he won Serie A ,or for that matter failed its a world away , I'm sure Mourinho will have his usual share of column inches and no doubt he will strive to be as controversial as is humanly possible ,but in any other respect what is his current relevance to a Liverpool forum .

by **bigmick** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:40 am

redbeergoggles wrote:I expect Mourinho to shun all the credit for that transfer ,owing to his shrinking violet persona .

I agree it was sensational ,but whether we will ever learn the true identity of the real architects behind the deal ,remains to be seen .

I don't for one moment presume Mourinho is not a competent manager ,but unless Liverpool meet Inter in the Champions League why would anyone care if he won Serie A ,or for that matter failed its a world away , I'm sure Mourinho will have his usual share of column inches and no doubt he will strive to be as controversial as is humanly possible ,but in any other respect what is his current relevance to a Liverpool forum .

The reason why the thread started mate was because a few posters made some, as it turned out, ill informed observations visa vis Mourinho and his record on the main boards. I decided, as they were similar thoughts to which I had subscribed previously, to start a new thread and try and get to the bottom of his achivevements or otherwise. As you say it has nothing to do with Liverpool Football Club, so I started the thread in "Premiership General Discussion". I did consider "worldwide discussion" but can't to be honest remember why I eventually favoured this spot.

Predictably anyway, the early stages of the thread were almost swamped in similarly biased rumblings as before, but once the real digging started (thanks in no small part to GYBS's urgings and his thirst for the truth) the real picture began to emerge.

As it's gone on, and as Mourinho has predictably continued to be successful, the thread has taken on something of a life of it's own. People still come back for a clarification of the "facts" as GYBS has done today, which is only natural given they are as they are. Equally, given Mourinho's Millenium "shush" and his talk of the "ghost goal", as well other remarks about Rafa and his five year plan, it is only natural that there is a certain animosity towards him.

Some people do though seem to find him fascinating, referring to him on the main boards all the time, deliberately leaving him out of polls and the like. Even yourself Red, searching out the thread like a heat seeking missile in order to add your thoughts.

Nothing to do with Liverpool admittedly, but interesting in small doses as well I think :;):

.

by **redbeergoggles** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:17 am

Heat seeking missile

Cmon Mick red rag to a bull maybe ? but surely this was the intention of the thread to court controversy ?,I mean to introduce a thread extolling the virtues of a man who in your own words is viewed with a certain amount of animosity by supporters ,it must have been scribed with the sole aim of enticing posters like me ,well you can rest assured Mick it was an absolute rip roaring success :;):

by **bigmick** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:32 am

redbeergoggles wrote:Heat seeking missile Cmon Mick red rag to a bull maybe ? but surely this was the intention of the thread to court controversy ?

No mate it wasn't, and if it was I'd say so. The absolute origins of it go right back to when earlier in the season people were voicing displeasure with the manager. The feeling was for some at the time, that the draws we kept having at Home would cost us the title, and our slightly circumspect set-up could be contributing. There was the usual posturing in response at the time, plenty of "you don't lose the league in November FFS's" and "I don't fecking believe some of the gimps on here". Course as it turned out there was some validity in some of the concerns people had, but whatever.

Now whenever the subject of the managers' competence comes up, those that it would be fair to describe as being more "loyal" to the manager, ask "well who else is there?". It always seems a strange question to me given we haven't won a trophy for three seasons, "who else in World football could we get in who could win us nothing for three seasons?" but no matter, they ask it anyway.

I tend not to get involved in such things, because whichever random manager gets suggested is dismissed in one of three ways. Either the retort is that he'd "never come here", "we couldn't afford him" or the imaginative "he's sh!t".

Anyway, on this particular occasion one of the "loyalists" decided to do a poll to establish once and for all who people thought could do a better job. He included all sorts of people, even wee Sammy Lee made the list. Fortunately however there was an "others" option, as he decided/made the mistake of not including Mourinho. As I recall "others" came second in the poll

THAT was why the discussion started mate, long explanation (you wouldn't expect anything else) but there it is.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:30 am

Bad Bob wrote:This is a key point for me. I can acknowledge that he's an excellent manager, I can respect what he's achieved in the game but I can't warm to him at all given the sh!te he came out with during his time at Chelsea. His bleating on about the "ghost goal" at every opportunity was more than enough to sour me on the man.

I think its a bit like discussing the merits of Kaka and Ronaldo. With Kaka you would get a discussion of his football ability, with Ronaldo it would be difficult to get past the fact he is a first class tw@t often enough for any meaningful discussion.

by **GYBS** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:03 am

Sorry RBG its all my fault - i started a poll about who they wanted to replace Rafa when the sack rafa and anti rafa was at its height of power and made the massive crime of forgetting Maureen so all the Maureen lovers voted others - some people still keep hold of that little mistake and even now 12 months down the line keep bringing it up and its like a dog with a bone they will never drop , from it this thread was started as a homage to him and Mick thinks that it has changed peoples opinion of him - unfortunately i dont think it has - some will never rate him as highly as others where as others still think he is a t.wat of the highest order and wouldnt want him near the club - all opinions no matter what facts are brought up.

by **bigmick** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:56 am

GYBS wrote:Sorry RBG its all my fault

I already told him mate it's Ok.

by **GYBS** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:10 pm

yes mick i see you labelled me a loyalist . Very nice thank , good label for someone who believes in the manager and backs the manager as opposed to the normal rubbish he gets all the time other managers get worshiped beyond belief .

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:37 pm

s@int wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:This is a key point for me. I can acknowledge that he's an excellent manager, I can respect what he's achieved in the game but I can't warm to him at all given the sh!te he came out with during his time at Chelsea. His bleating on about the "ghost goal" at every opportunity was more than enough to sour me on the man.

I think its a bit like discussing the merits of Kaka and Ronaldo. With Kaka you would get a discussion of his football ability, with Ronaldo it would be difficult to get past the fact he is a first class tw@t often enough for any meaningful discussion.

Yeah, that's about right.

by **redbeergoggles** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:46 pm

bigmick wrote:
redbeergoggles wrote:Heat seeking missile Cmon Mick red rag to a bull maybe ? but surely this was the intention of the thread to court controversy ?

No mate it wasn't, and if it was I'd say so. The absolute origins of it go right back to when earlier in the season people were voicing displeasure with the manager. The feeling was for some at the time, that the draws we kept having at Home would cost us the title, and our slightly circumspect set-up could be contributing. There was the usual posturing in response at the time, plenty of "you don't lose the league in November FFS's" and "I don't fecking believe some of the gimps on here". Course as it turned out there was some validity in some of the concerns people had, but whatever.

Now whenever the subject of the managers' competence comes up, those that it would be fair to describe as being more "loyal" to the manager, ask "well who else is there?". It always seems a strange question to me given we haven't won a trophy for three seasons, "who else in World football could we get in who could win us nothing for three seasons?" but no matter, they ask it anyway.

I tend not to get involved in such things, because whichever random manager gets suggested is dismissed in one of three ways. Either the retort is that he'd "never come here", "we couldn't afford him" or the imaginative "he's sh!t".

Anyway, on this particular occasion one of the "loyalists" decided to do a poll to establish once and for all who people thought could do a better job. He included all sorts of people, even wee Sammy Lee made the list. Fortunately however there was an "others" option, as he decided/made the mistake of not including Mourinho. As I recall "others" came second in the poll

THAT was why the discussion started mate, long explanation (you wouldn't expect anything else) but there it is.

Fair do's Mick

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