Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:09 pm

GYBS wrote:I think you need to clear up your facts just slightly there dont you ?!

No problem mate, ready and willing to go over it all again. Which period of his management would you like me to clear up the facts of, and i'm onto it for you.

Is it his spell at the unknown Portuguese club where he took them to fifth at his first attempt, which is still the highest in their history?

Perhaps it's at Porto, where he won them their first title in four seasons at the first attempt along with the UEFA Cup, breaking the Portuguese points record into the process. Or is the second season you want me to look at, the one in which they won the domestic title with five weeks to go, along with the Champions League, winning the final 3-0 against the team which had put Chelsea out, and beating the Mancs along the way?

Or maybe it's none of that, perhaps you want me to dig into the Chelsea years. You want me to look at how he managed to hit the ground running to the extent that he put SEVENTEEN POINTS onto Ranieri's best ever effort in his first season, winning the league at a canter and amassing NINETY SIX POINTS into the process? The record still stands of course because despite p!ssing the league the following season, they didn't quite manage to keep up the motivation till the end of the season.

Or is the Italian job you are curious about? Winning the league (surprise surprise) in his first season.

Tell me which facts you want mate and I'll do some digging for you again.

by **aCe'** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:10 pm

GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:In all honesty I believe Mourinho would have already won the title with us and probably moved on to pastures new by now. I don't see him as the type of manager to hang around long, more like a hired gun who comes in gets the job done then moves on to the next job.

And in all honesty i dont think 1. He would come to us and 2 . would win the league if he did .

Which probably says more about how little you know, than anything about Mourinho.

Really ? well seeing as he goes to clubs that can back him financially for whatever player he wants rules us out for a start - plus if he had come to us

we wouldnt of got players like masher ,torres,pepe and xabi - who my opinion where all steals at their price and maureen would of had to deal with buying below world class players at cheaper prices and wouldnt of won the prem with us - hence why i believe he turned us down when he had a choice between us and chelsea .

lets just go over this for a second...

Torres: 20-26.5mill depending on where you look it up..
Mascherano: 17.5mill
Pepe:6mill
Alonso:10.5mill

now for Chelsea..

Drogba: 24mill from Marseille
Ballack: free from Bayern
Cech: 7mill from Rennes
Robben: 12mill from gods knows where

Carvalho, Essien..etc... the guy payed over the top for some of those players simply because he was at Chelsea and everyone expected him to... cant say any of them werent worth the money payed and the titles they won prove that... Personally i think he would have been a major success here.. even the fans would have liked him.. i mean come on, we like it when Rafas a bit of a .... whats the word im looking for here... you know when he goes on the windup and all... anyways, hope he doesnt succeed Ferguson at ManUtd is all im saying for now...

by **bigmick** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:12 pm

aCe' wrote:anyways, hope he doesnt succeed Ferguson at ManUtd is all im saying for now...

Or indeed Hughes at Man City, look out if he does.

by **GYBS** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:12 pm

bigmick wrote:
GYBS wrote:I think you need to clear up your facts just slightly there dont you ?!

No problem mate, ready and willing to go over it all again. Which period of his management would you like me to clear up the facts of, and i'm onto it for you.

Is it his spell at the unknown Portuguese club where he took them to fifth at his first attempt, which is still the highest in their history?

Perhaps it's at Porto, where he won them their first title in four seasons at the first attempt along with the UEFA Cup, breaking the Portuguese points record into the process. Or is the second season you want me to look at, the one in which they won the domestic title with five weeks to go, along with the Champions League, winning the final 3-0 against the team which had put Chelsea out, and beating the Mancs along the way?

Or maybe it's none of that, perhaps you want me to dig into the Chelsea years. You want me to look at how he managed to hit the ground running to the extent that he put SEVENTEEN POINTS onto Ranieri's best ever effort in his first season, winning the league at a canter and amassing NINETY SIX POINTS into the process? The record still stands of course because despite p!ssing the league the following season, they didn't quite manage to keep up the motivation till the end of the season.

Or is the Italian job you are curious about? Winning the league (surprise surprise) in his first season.

Tell me which facts you want mate and I'll do some digging for you again.

the facts of my opinion mick not of any facts of maureen - the fact nothing has changed my opinion of him no matter what overwheleming facts you think have changed my mind about him - they havent . SO I DIDNT HAVE NO OPTION TO ACCEPT ANYTHING.

by **Sabre** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:12 pm

Absolutely love the thread, just re-read it. It's classic newkit, with thrust and counter thrust, abuse and innaccuracy competing with condescension and nonsense.

Isn't there a bit of condescension in your last comment on the insecurity you want to imagine in some posters in the last paragraph? (some posts have sneaqued within that post, I mean the one about Rafa staunch defenders)

Not that it affects me, far from it, it's just that I don't like it when some people snap you with harsh words at some points of the season, and I think that's the kind of line, which is perfectly unnecessary, later grow in the stomach of passionate people and at some point burst in the form of FFS!! or Barryesque posts with lots of exclamation signs.

That's the kind of thing that you could hardly detect in a post of yours in 2006 and is more frequent to see now. I know in the other hand that you receive your good dosis of abuse, bóllocks and fúckwittery too, and that you have been answered harshly even when making very valid points, but I really think that kind of lines that are probably aimed to one or two persons, might offend staunch Rafa defenders just because you mention them as a whole.

I don't think that the bias that is more than evident it exists here against Mourinho has anything to do with insecurity or Rafa himself. It has more to do with him being a coach of an archrival club for a long time, with everything that implies. In the case of Mourinho, to make things worse, he has said stupid things against us, and has done bad gestures to us. That's where the bias against Mourinho comes from. Let's not lose perspective of where hatred against Mourinho comes from for the 99% of the fans.

Back on topic

Now he's in Italy and he's just got rid of the big Swedish striker and got Hleb plus Eto plus 30 million quid, so he's probably in credit there on transfer fees.

Well, no doubt that Mourinho's and Morattis (in Italy Mourinho hasn't probably as much power as he had in England) deal this summer was superb.

There's no doubt that if Mourinho has convinced Eto'o to play for them is because Mourinho has some good reputation as succesful coach and he's able to attract that kind of player (just as our manager was able to attract people like Torres). I think that it's undeniable that Mourinho is a cúnt, but a cúnt that has done a lot of things right managing his teams.

I think that with Eto'o and money to sign, Internazionale might even come back to a more relevant participation in the champions league. If Internazionale does that, I won't say Mourinho has been lucky because he has enjoyed the greatest of the few bonker payments of Barcelona through out their history (they usually don't spend that much). If Internazionale comes back to a CL final then I'll admit that jump is thanks to Mourinho.

But when it comes to winning the league, I honestly think that he came right through the strongest italian team of the moment. With that team he probably can't win the CL, and in fact he didn't last season. Let's see how he does in the CL this season, and how he spends the money, and if he makes a good CL season, then I won't have problems to admit, even with my bias, that's a merit of Mourinho.

by **GYBS** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:14 pm

aCe' wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:In all honesty I believe Mourinho would have already won the title with us and probably moved on to pastures new by now. I don't see him as the type of manager to hang around long, more like a hired gun who comes in gets the job done then moves on to the next job.

And in all honesty i dont think 1. He would come to us and 2 . would win the league if he did .

Which probably says more about how little you know, than anything about Mourinho.

Really ? well seeing as he goes to clubs that can back him financially for whatever player he wants rules us out for a start - plus if he had come to us

we wouldnt of got players like masher ,torres,pepe and xabi - who my opinion where all steals at their price and maureen would of had to deal with buying below world class players at cheaper prices and wouldnt of won the prem with us - hence why i believe he turned us down when he had a choice between us and chelsea .

lets just go over this for a second...

Torres: 20-26.5mill depending on where you look it up..
Mascherano: 17.5mill
Pepe:6mill
Alonso:10.5mill

now for Chelsea..

Drogba: 24mill from Marseille
Ballack: free from Bayern
Cech: 7mill from Rennes
Robben: 12mill from gods knows where

Carvalho, Essien..etc... the guy payed over the top for some of those players simply because he was at Chelsea and everyone expected him to... cant say any of them werent worth the money payed and the titles they won prove that... Personally i think he would have been a major success here.. even the fans would have liked him.. i mean come on, we like it when Rafas a bit of a .... whats the word im looking for here... you know when he goes on the windup and all... anyways, hope he doesnt succeed Ferguson at ManUtd is all im saying for now...

both cech and robben where signed before he arrived .

and i still dont believe he would of brought those players in that we have nor would of been able to afford the season outlay he did at chelsea in his first season or his second season .

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:16 pm

GYBS wrote:No one is saying he is a bad manager - have already said he is a good manager and the fact he did well at Porto - you said he would of won the league with us saint and im saying he wouldnt because to win the league with chelsea - he had to spend a lot of money to win the league to add to an already expensive club - he couldnt of done that with us .

simple as that saint - clear enough for you ?

Mourinho spent less than £100million to win the league with record points at Chelsea in his FIRST SEASON (first time in fifty years) we have spent over £200million and still not won it.

I think that is much clearer

by **GYBS** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:20 pm

s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:No one is saying he is a bad manager - have already said he is a good manager and the fact he did well at Porto - you said he would of won the league with us saint and im saying he wouldnt because to win the league with chelsea - he had to spend a lot of money to win the league to add to an already expensive club - he couldnt of done that with us .

simple as that saint - clear enough for you ?

Mourinho spent less than £100million to win the league with record points at Chelsea in his FIRST SEASON (first time in fifty years) we have spent over £200million and still not won it.

I think that is much clearer

SO he spent how much in ONE season as opposed to spread out over 5 season ?!?

Could we afford to spend that kind of money to enable him to build the kind of squad in that first season to win the league - NO .

He took over a team that was already close to winning the prem (with the previous manager spending millions ) added nearly 100 million pounds worth and won the prem - did we have a multi million pound squad ? NO did we finish 30 odd points behind the winners ? YES , could he off added nearly 100 million pounds worth of players for us ? NO .

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:25 pm

Would we have needed to? We already had a team that was good enough to win the CL.

by **bigmick** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:27 pm

Yours is a good post Sabre and I'll take me little girl to school and come back to you on it. Made me think though for sure.

by **GYBS** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:28 pm

s@int wrote:Would we have needed to? We already had a team that was good enough to win the CL.

And how did it do in the league saint ? was it not 30 plus points behind the winners - lets not let that CL win mask the fact that while it was a decent bunch of players with a couple world class players it was nowhere near the level of being able to win the prem or even get close to challenging . winning the CL and winning the prem are two different challenges totally .

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:31 pm

GYBS wrote:
s@int wrote:Would we have needed to? We already had a team that was good enough to win the CL.

And how did it do in the league saint ? was it not 30 plus points behind the winners - lets not let that CL win mask the fact that while it was a decent bunch of players with a couple world class players it was nowhere near the level of being able to win the prem or even get close to challenging . winning the CL and winning the prem are two different challenges totally .

How do you know? Maybe Rafa concentrated on the cl and Mourinho would have concentrated on winning the league. Maybe the team was better than you think.

by **GYBS** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:36 pm

Wouldnt of made a difference - we finished 5th saint - even if we concentrated on the league we would of maybe got within 20 points and were loosing games during the period when the CL wasnt being played and where already miles behind at xmas to the point where i think we were at one point at 7th , so cant blame that on the cl .

the team wasnt good enough to win the league - we had a major lack of goalscoring threat - major lack also a big lack of strength in depth and quality compared to the other big four teams .

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:38 pm

Sabre wrote:I don't think that the bias that is more than evident it exists here against Mourinho has anything to do with insecurity or Rafa himself. It has more to do with him being a coach of an archrival club for a long time, with everything that implies. In the case of Mourinho, to make things worse, he has said stupid things against us, and has done bad gestures to us.

This is a key point for me. I can acknowledge that he's an excellent manager, I can respect what he's achieved in the game but I can't warm to him at all given the sh!te he came out with during his time at Chelsea. His bleating on about the "ghost goal" at every opportunity was more than enough to sour me on the man.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:39 pm

How do you know it wouldn't have made a difference, we didn't lose any of those games under Mourinho did we ? Maybe Owen would have stayed if we had Mourinho. How do you know he wouldn't ?

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