In this season of death....... - Where did we most go wrong?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Number 9 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:36 am

bigmick wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
Ciggy wrote:Barry and Lando I like you both but seriously guys you are wrong here seriously.

The reason Xabi Alonso no longer plays for us is because of Rafa's persuit of Gazfeckinbaz, as much as it hurts its the truth.

And the reason Alberto Aqualini is here is because Rafa bought him and he is a crock, that could turn out a gem but he needs playing time so I would like to see him on the pitch instead of Lucas 50 pence head Leiva.

Don't you think that Rafa wants him out there, too? After all the grief he's been given over it , I think he probably wants Alberto out there more than the player does himself.

As for Alonso, we all know that Rafa p*ssed him off, but that was as much down to the owners' unwillingness to provide funds in my opinion. Of course, we'll never actually know unless Rafa publishes his autobiography...

I must confess I haven't seen or read much "grief" that's been given to the manager over the Aquilani signing, although people are obviously frustrated that he hasn't played. Probably more significant, I think anyway, has been the decision to try and go with the Lucas/masherano axis in central midfield. Obviously recently we haven't had a great deal of choice with Gerrard being injured, but I do feel it was an error earlier in the season.

Funnily enough I did say so about six pages back. That was the point of the thread, "what was the one thing above all others you would have done different given hindsight and the rest". Very inflammatory I know but there it is.

To answer the question about "why is it incredible really", it's incredible to me that such an innocent topic can provoke some of the responses we've seen from the keyboard gangsters. :laugh:.

Keyboard gangsters..yes crowd,Pro camp,rafalites...those that sit on the other side of the fence...................Fools perhaps,in your mind?


Perhaps you find me equally as boring as I do you?I log on here about 1/2 times a week..it used to be every day(usually in the morning before work) and all I see are moans and derogatory comments from you to the manager.......NOW the thing I find really hard to digest is that you have been saying the same things for about 4-5 years.All of a sudden you have a certain smugness about you...almost I was right!!

YES it has been a hard time for LFC and yes we have all questioned where we are going but FFS to come on here and see you beating your W*nk out over Mourinhio??Wise up lad...really you turn me..stop doing it,its wrong.
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Postby account deleted by request » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:43 am

FACT 1

Who are these Key players ?

Gerrard and Torres both started againt Spurs. Villa, Chelsea, all of which we lost

Torres started against Fulham which we lost.

So there is only the Sunderland game which we lost where both our key players were missing.

Reina, Kuyt, Lucas and Benayoun have played in all 13 league games
Mascherano and Carra  have played in 12 of our 13 games

League apperances

Player                  PL           
Dirk Kuyt              13       
Yossi Benayoun     13     
Jamie Carragher     12     
Jose Reina            13
Emiliano Insúa       12
Lucas Leiva          13
Javier Masch        12
Glen Johnson        11
Steven Gerrard     10
Martin Skrtel        10
Ryan Babel            9
Fernando Torres   10

FACT 2 

Maybe if we had bought Barry (or at least someone fit) we may not have missed Alonso so much. 

FACT3

See 2 above 

FACT 4

I agree mate some of our performances have been very poor 

FACT 5

Last season we finished second.  Arsenal, Chelsea and the mancs have spent LESS THAN US IN THE SUMMER gross, while Arsenal and the mancs have spent LESS THAN US IN THE SUMMER net as well. 

FACT 6

So were Valencia and Owen at the mancs. Its a fact mate, that money is tight and prices are high at the moment for everyone (barring City)

FACT 7 maybe if we had offloaded Dossena and Babel we could have afforded a decent CB? Or maybe if Rafa hadn't dropped Hyypia out of the CL squad last season for Deggan he might have been a little more interested in staying? Treat players like chess pieces and sometimes it bites you in the a$$.

FACT 8

Every club and every manager has to accept second best. Thats why they prioritize in the areas they are weakest.
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Postby maguskwt » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:46 am

Our downfall started with Keane-gate. We had enough strikers with Crouch, Kuyt and Torres. We sold Crouch and bought Keane which at that time was a good move. But then the mystery Keane-gate happened. Keane was painful to watch. But when we sold Keane, I thought we would get a replacement. Never materialised. There must be something more in it than Rafa simply being too stubborn to buy a replacement. Which manager wouldn't buy a replacement. Where was the money of Keane's sale gone? Rafa has said during that time that His first choice was Barry and then keane. After that we had to sell Alonso for 30 millions and he didn't get to spend all th money. He had to gamble on Aquilani. This has been repeated many times.


****************
As Benitez prepares Liverpool for Saturday's visit of Barry's Manchester City, he speculated as to whether the England midfielder could have turned the title race in his favour last term.

"You never know," he said. "Football is a funny game. The plan was for Barry to play on the left and feed the ball to Robbie Keane, who would play up front with Fernando Torres. This blueprint had to be scrapped. The collateral damage was Keane, who signed from Tottenham Hotspur before the Barry deal had been done.

"When we wanted to sign Barry, we were sure we were signing a good player with a very good mentality and the quality to play in the Premier League. The priority was Barry, then Keane.''

Asked about the prospect of losing the fourth Champions League place to a challenger such as Barry's City and competing in the Europa League next season, Benitez was philosophical.

"It's not easy to accept the situation. But it's not the end of the world. We must keep going. We'll approach it with the right mentality and try to win."
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Postby Ciggy » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:47 am

s@int wrote:FACT 1

Who are these Key players ?

Gerrard and Torres both started againt Spurs. Villa, Chelsea, all of which we lost

Torres started against Fulham which we lost.

So there is only the Sunderland game which we lost where both our key players were missing.

Reina, Kuyt, Lucas and Benayoun have played in all 13 league games
Mascherano and Carra  have played in 12 of our 13 games

League apperances

Player                  PL           
Dirk Kuyt              13       
Yossi Benayoun     13     
Jamie Carragher     12     
Jose Reina            13
Emiliano Insúa       12
Lucas Leiva          13
Javier Masch        12
Glen Johnson        11
Steven Gerrard     10
Martin Skrtel        10
Ryan Babel            9
Fernando Torres   10

FACT 2 

Maybe if we had bought Barry (or at least someone fit) we may not have missed Alonso so much. 

FACT3

See 2 above 

FACT 4

I agree mate some of our performances have been very poor 

FACT 5

Last season we finished second.  Arsenal, Chelsea and the mancs have spent LESS THAN US IN THE SUMMER gross, while Arsenal and the mancs have spent LESS THAN US IN THE SUMMER net as well. 

FACT 6

So were Valencia and Owen at the mancs. Its a fact mate, that money is tight and prices are high at the moment for everyone (barring City)

FACT 7 maybe if we had offloaded Dossena and Babel we could have afforded a decent CB? Or maybe if Rafa hadn't dropped Hyypia out of the CL squad last season for Deggan he might have been a little more interested in staying? Treat players like chess pieces and sometimes it bites you in the a$$.

FACT 8

Every club and every manager has to accept second best. Thats why they prioritize in the areas they are weakest.

Thats one sh!t fecking post to read when you have been on the brandy for the first time in 20 years because there might be a groundshare Cmon Saint ffs  :laugh:
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Postby account deleted by request » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:49 am

Ciggy wrote:Lucas 50 pence head Leiva.

It was a good post Ciggy, but this cracked me up  :laugh:
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Postby Ciggy » Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:00 am

s@int wrote:
Ciggy wrote:Lucas 50 pence head Leiva.

It was a good post Ciggy, but this cracked me up  :laugh:

He used to look like that MBOP singing group from Canada Hanson.

:(  Its now 4 o clock here Im on the brandy gutted at the prospect of a groundshare, and I have to be up at 7. This club hey anyone wouldnt think we gave a sh!t.
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Postby red_guy » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:13 am

Ciggy wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:I didn't say it wasn't Rafa's fault - but you can't deny that, had the owners given him the money for Barry, Alonso would never have been unsettled.

As for the signing of Aquilani, if you can't trust a World-leading doctor, who can you trust?

Lando Cmon mate Rafa was feckin p!ssed at Xabi when he stayed at home for the birth of his son, he said as much on TV. And the constant whoring of Xabi who would pay the most money for him was nothing more than a disgrace. You are aware he was going to sell him to Arsenal arnt you?

He was intregal in Rafas plans since he arrived since he has gone we look a shadow of our former selves and its because the player that made us tick since rafas arrival was sold.

The only person responsible for Xabi Alonsos exit is rafa benitez.

Onto Aqualini lando you have to be kidding mate, we could have taken Rafael Van Der Vaart, Wesley Snijder, or Diarah from Madrid when we sold Alonso, ok not as good as him but not injured and are better players than Lucas 50 pence head Leiva.

To sign an injured player for Alonso for 20 million going into December then its no doctors fault its rafas fault sorry.
And the fella has had 20 minutes of football and hasnt been seen since?
He wont start in the derby cause its kick anything that moves, next up Blackburn he wont start cause they are another kick anything but the ball, next up Arsenal he wont start that game either.

So Lando I know Rafa is the manager and I could be completly wrong if I am tell me why?

I have to agree with Ciggy.
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Postby shawnk » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:31 am

s@int wrote:FACT 1

Who are these Key players ?

Gerrard and Torres both started againt Spurs. Villa, Chelsea, all of which we lost

Torres started against Fulham which we lost.

So there is only the Sunderland game which we lost where both our key players were missing.

Reina, Kuyt, Lucas and Benayoun have played in all 13 league games
Mascherano and Carra  have played in 12 of our 13 games

League apperances

Player                  PL           
Dirk Kuyt              13       
Yossi Benayoun     13     
Jamie Carragher     12     
Jose Reina            13
Emiliano Insúa       12
Lucas Leiva          13
Javier Masch        12
Glen Johnson        11
Steven Gerrard     10
Martin Skrtel        10
Ryan Babel            9
Fernando Torres   10

FACT 2 

Maybe if we had bought Barry (or at least someone fit) we may not have missed Alonso so much. 

FACT3

See 2 above 

FACT 4

I agree mate some of our performances have been very poor 

FACT 5

Last season we finished second.  Arsenal, Chelsea and the mancs have spent LESS THAN US IN THE SUMMER gross, while Arsenal and the mancs have spent LESS THAN US IN THE SUMMER net as well. 

FACT 6

So were Valencia and Owen at the mancs. Its a fact mate, that money is tight and prices are high at the moment for everyone (barring City)

FACT 7 maybe if we had offloaded Dossena and Babel we could have afforded a decent CB? Or maybe if Rafa hadn't dropped Hyypia out of the CL squad last season for Deggan he might have been a little more interested in staying? Treat players like chess pieces and sometimes it bites you in the a$$.

FACT 8

Every club and every manager has to accept second best. Thats why they prioritize in the areas they are weakest.

FACT 9

According to a reliable football TV program:

No. of players that the following clubs bought in since 2004:

LFC 48
Manure 20
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Postby Sabre » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:48 am

The only person responsible for Xabi Alonsos exit is rafa benitez.


I disagree.

Don't get me wrong, I think Rafa did manage Alonso POORLY, that is, I'm admiting his mistakes there and those mistakes are longer than the son incident. That incident was nothing more than the (put here the expression of the camel and the straw). There was an incompatibility of characters.

But admitting all that, for me an important factor is that Xabi thinks mostly in his career. He's that kind of player. That is, without the mistakes of Rafa, without the son incident, I think that Alonso wouldn't be here, just as he decided at some point not to remain in Real Sociedad.

For me, "the blames" normally are not a one person thing. I agree the multiple factors to explain why something is not working, I think Rafa has part of the blame (for reasons Andy and others have stated), but I don't think it's all Rafa's fault.

What makes some people angry, IMHO, is that one year ago some people were reluctantly accepting we had made progress, and now it seems everything is Rafa's fault. When Clearly, the injuries we had and the beach ball incidents are not Rafa's fault.

I think no one thinks around here Rafa is perfect, but some people like Lando don't buy the roundabout expressions that are used to call Rafa an inept without saying it explicitly.

That said, I think Lando knows I don't share the name calling, it's pointless and the only consequence will be a ban, and having a view less in the forum. Similarly I dismiss the accusations thrown at Lando that he doesn't speak football, with contempt.
Last edited by Sabre on Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Judge » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:59 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
bigmick wrote::laugh: Fecking hell, unbelieveable really.

Why's that, oh Great One?

Paul, come on mate. get a grip fella.

your dislike of bigmick is becoming tedious. we know you dont like him, but dont vent anger at everything he says mate

i mean BM sells large dildo's for a living, and i'd hate to be you in nottingham city centre picking up 50p from the floor with BM behind you
KNOW WOT I MEAN 



:D
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Postby The_Rock » Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:07 am

Judge wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
bigmick wrote::laugh: Fecking hell, unbelieveable really.

Why's that, oh Great One?

Paul, come on mate. get a grip fella.

your dislike of bigmick is becoming tedious. we know you dont like him, but dont vent anger at everything he says mate

i mean BM sells large dildo's for a living, and i'd hate to be you in nottingham city centre picking up 50p from the floor with BM behind you
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:D

It only seemed like yesterday when lando was going all around this forum proudly proclaiming that Mick considers him the funniest poster in this forum (actually it was a few years ago...but you get the drift). I always thought there were "tight"

And now they are the biggest enemies in this forum....why ?

Well becos of fecking Benitez i tall ya. Benitez is single handedly destroying this forum ... He is turning LFC fans against each other :wwww

So you can include this as one of benitez's many "minuses"......  :p
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Postby stmichael » Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:29 am

shawnk wrote:FACT 9

According to a reliable football TV program:

No. of players that the following clubs bought in since 2004:

LFC 48
Manure 20

that's because united already had a really strong squad in place. they only need to go out and buy 2-3 players every season to improve on what they've already got. they are also in the fortunate position where they can gamble on players with big fees and if they don't work out they can just sell them on and replace them with another one. by comparison, our squad at that time was probably the worst in living memory, even worse than what we have now.
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Postby Sabre » Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:32 am

Yes, but thanks to Rafa you lot have suddenly realised that the concept of internet friendship is bóllocks and you have really understood the truth, we don't really like each other  :D

Seriously, I said 2 years ago when the bitter debates on Rafa started that I was pretty sure that a new manager would be like a "reset" in newkit mood. Probably the antis and pros thingy would be dispelled.

I do agree The Rock that probably it's the topics that we're discussing what makes this apparent enemies. I don't think that people would dislike each other if they met with a beer in most cases.
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Postby Benny The Noon » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:22 pm

The manager — Tony Cascarino

A few weeks ago I felt that Rafael Benítez deserved the chance to turn Liverpool around. Now, I’m not so sure — because I’m starting to doubt he can. His mistakes are a big reason Liverpool are in this mess and I’m not convinced he has the crisis-management skills to improve the situation.

Benítez has built a squad that is not good enough to challenge and not determined enough to overachieve despite its limitations.

There aren’t enough strong characters. The team look a soft touch. Contrast the mild noises coming out of Anfield with the unrest and impatience at Chelsea when they wobbled last season. Liverpool are tame — and I think that’s how Benítez likes it.

He has taken a firm grip of the club, becoming a dominant figure. The Spanish influence, loyal to Benítez, runs deep, from the academy upwards. He gets an easy ride, especially because he and the fans can blame the owners for their supposed lack of investment. But that reassuring obedience is now a problem because he needs the players to show some fight and fury and it’s simply not there.

Lack of money is a weak excuse. Benítez inherited a very good team from Gérard Houllier, not one that needed radical transformation.  Despite the supposed shortage of funds, he was able to bring in a world-class player such as Fernando Torres.

The problem isn’t lack of money, it’s that Benítez has bought and sold poorly. Andriy Voronin, David Ngog, scratchchin.gif Lucas Leiva, Emiliano Insúa — all are average Barclays Premier League players, not Liverpool quality. And now Benítez is relying on them.

Tactically, Liverpool concede far too many goals from set-pieces and used to be too defensive. Benítez tried to be more attacking, bought Glen Johnson and encouraged the full backs to bomb forward — but now the defence is shaky.

He became so fond of the idea of Steven Gerrard playing behind Torres that he neglected to buy a decent striker doh.gif as a back-up to the Spain forward. And yet, in Peter Crouch and Robbie Keane, he had two — both sold for no good reason. brow.gif

In one summer, Liverpool have gone from outstanding to poor, from title contenders to mid-table nothingness. I’m sceptical that Benítez can do anything about it.

The owners — Patrick Barclay

To identify the problem with Liverpool, you have to look at their competitors. And note that all three of the clubs with whom Liverpool are striving to keep in touch — those still in the Champions League — have the benefit of a vision.

When plain Alex Ferguson arrived at Manchester United in 1986, it was with a resolve to recreate the club of Sir Matt Busby, built on youth development and the most exciting players to which the budget would stretch. Sir Bobby Charlton, once a Busby Babe, applauded this and has observed its fulfilment. United have 30,000 more seats now and they are almost invariably filled.

When Arsène Wenger arrived at Arsenal in 1996, the invitation came though David Dein, the vice-chairman. He knew Wenger and was enthralled by his vision of a new Barcelona. Again, youth development was heavily involved. Patience met a footballing philosophy. Arsenal have 23,000 more seats now and they are almost invariably filled.

Chelsea are different. They have the backing of Roman Abramovich’s wealth and a philosophy to go with it. If the rapier does not work, they reach for the bludgeon. They are impatient, but can afford to be. They change managers until one works for them. If someone tries to buy John Terry, he stays.

They cannot be bothered with stadium building. It just complicates things. Who needs a stream when revenue flows by pipeline? Chelsea no longer talk about breaking even; the appearance of Sheikh Mansour at Manchester City put paid to that. The vision survives.

And Liverpool? Of what does their vision consist? The next refinancing?

Liverpool under George Gillett Jr and Tom Hicks, the co-owners are exactly where they were in the becalmed days of the David Moores regime: in a cramped (if gloriously atmospheric) ground with a youth policy suffering from too many clashes of philosophy and a manager doing his best, grinding out as many results as he can that defer to the spirit of Shankly.

Gérard Houllier won three cups in one season. Rafael Benítez, most would say, has done even better, winning the Champions League in 2005 to keep Liverpool’s European honours well ahead of United’s, even if Ferguson’s team threaten to take a record nineteenth domestic title. But next season Liverpool may be in the Europa League.

They may be able to cheer themselves up by beating Everton on Sunday, as they did by overcoming United last month, but remember what Benítez once clumsily called Everton. He said they were a “small” club.

What the outsider notices on visiting the city of Liverpool is that it is a “small” place. True, football has made it seem big for as long as most of us can remember, but the danger is that, without a vision, it will punch its weight and become more like Sheffield, with two “small” clubs, than Milan, which has two big ones.

Disparate ownerships, the true blue Bill Kenwright on one side and the Americans on the other, cannot see that the future lies in a joint stadium vomit-.gif and other facilities, including a museum and academies, that would be the envy of the football world. Instead they parade models of new homes that either should not or will not be built.

They claim to reflect the wishes of the fans. In which case the fans will get the future they deserve.

The injuries — Tony Barrett

“Heroes” isn’t the most obvious word to use about a group of players who have just fallen in the Champions League, but it was how Christian Purslow, the Liverpool managing director, described Rafael Benítez’s team in the aftermath of their exit.

“We have got players coming back from injury playing when they’re not fully fit and it’s really important our fans understand that,” Purslow said. “We’ve got some heroes out there doing it on the park in the last few games, half fit or on painkilling jabs to do a job for our club.”

On Tuesday night, Benítez was again forced to send out a patched-up side. The 18 players who made the trip to Hungary were pretty much the sum total of those available to him, apart from the out-of-favour Andriy Voronin.

Considered in isolation, the absentee list for the Debrecen game does not seem too debilitating. Fernando Torres Albert Riera, Ryan Babel and Martin Kelly were unavailable through injury, a manageable situation and one that should not cause too many problems.

It is the walking wounded who are the main concern. Since the season started, Liverpool have been dealing with an injury crisis of one sort or another. That Benítez is yet to field his strongest team almost four months into the campaign tells its own story. scratchchin.gif

His starting line-up in Debrecen included four players who are not 100 per cent fit. Steven Gerrard, Fábio Aurélio, Daniel Agger and Glen Johnson are all working their way back to full fitness. On the substitutes’ bench, Yossi Benayoun, Andrea Dossena and Alberto Aquilani featured despite concerns about their physical robustness.

Benítez continues to claim that his squad is better than recent form suggests and insists that the unprecedented injury situation he is having to cope with is one of the biggest contributory factors in their faltering season.

The problem is that sympathy is in short supply in the unforgiving world of European football’s elite and Benítez has come in for criticism — some justified, some not — first for signing too many players who do not appear to have the robustness to play regularly at the highest level, and second for assembling a shadow squad that lacks the quality to step up when better and more senior players are unavailable.
Benny The Noon
 

Postby account deleted by request » Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:42 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:The manager — Tony Cascarino

A few weeks ago I felt that Rafael Benítez deserved the chance to turn Liverpool around. Now, I’m not so sure — because I’m starting to doubt he can. His mistakes are a big reason Liverpool are in this mess and I’m not convinced he has the crisis-management skills to improve the situation.

Benítez has built a squad that is not good enough to challenge and  not determined enough to overachieve despite its limitations.

There aren’t enough strong characters. The team look a soft touch. Contrast the mild noises coming out of Anfield with the unrest and impatience at Chelsea when they wobbled last season. Liverpool are tame — and I think that’s how Benítez likes it.

He has taken a firm grip of the club, becoming a dominant figure. The Spanish influence, loyal to Benítez, runs deep, from the academy upwards. He gets an easy ride, especially because he and the fans can blame the owners for their supposed lack of investment. But that reassuring obedience is now a problem because he needs the players to show some fight and fury and it’s simply not there.

Lack of money is a weak excuse.  Benítez inherited a very good team from Gérard Houllier, not one that needed radical transformation.   Despite the supposed shortage of funds, he was able to bring in a world-class player such as Fernando Torres.

The problem isn’t lack of money, it’s that Benítez has bought and sold poorly. Andriy Voronin, David Ngog, scratchchin.gif Lucas Leiva, Emiliano Insúa — all are average Barclays Premier League players, not Liverpool quality. And now Benítez is relying on them.

Tactically, Liverpool concede far too many goals from set-pieces and used to be too defensive. Benítez tried to be more attacking, bought Glen Johnson and encouraged the full backs to bomb forward — but now the defence is shaky.

He became so fond of the idea of Steven Gerrard playing behind Torres that he neglected to buy a decent striker doh.gif as a back-up to the Spain forward. And yet, in Peter Crouch and Robbie Keane, he had two — both sold for no good reason. brow.gif

In one summer, Liverpool have gone from outstanding to poor, from title contenders to mid-table nothingness. I’m sceptical that Benítez can do anything about it.

I usually think Cascarino is a waste of space, but for once I think he has got it spot on.
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