Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:15 pm

milou wrote:8) Loss of Hyypia - People are "missing" Hyypia only bcos with the benefits of hindsight that we are doing so badly defensively. Let's face it.. Most fans already accepted that Hyypia's best days are gone.

and yet he'd still be more reliable than carra and skrtel (who have both struggled for form) and agger (who can't stay fit for more than 3 games at a time). he was also by far our best centre back in the air and alongside agger the most comfortable on the ball. he didn't look to hoof it long all the time like carra does.

he was also a leader and and a character in the dressing room. people seem to overlook this.

by **Benny The Noon** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:16 pm

Poor Form from majority of players
Injuries
Individual Defensive Errors
Shocking Defending
Not closing out games
Failing to go for it against Smaller Teams
Lack of creativity when needed
Lack of decent back up
Lack of passion and self belief

by **access** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:16 pm

Just listened to sky sports the usual dire conversations but when you look at the revenue we have lost and the future it doesnt look brilliant.

I am now concerned because speaking to various people on sky sport 'Rafa' is of the opinion it is a 'long term' project and wont happen overnight.

THEN then review the amount of players we have bought from the year 2004 = 48 players which is the most of any of the top four [Chelsea/Manchester United/Arsenal] United have bought in 20.

Now when I look at that I wonder what on earth is 'going on'.

Perhaps I will make this point again Rafa left Velencia in financial crisis

by **Waldo** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:17 pm

Ciggy wrote:
Waldo wrote:we can win the Europa Cup and we can win the FA cup.

On current form we wouldnt even win a raffle.

I agree but I would rather look forward...I am confident that we'll come out of this hellishly bad run soon (starting on Sunday vs Everton) and then we have IMO a reasonable run of fixtures with which to build some momentum and push on.

by **Sir Roger** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:17 pm

"The first goal is crucial" was one of my least favourite Rafa sayings. He doesnt say it as much these days
Anyone know why?

by **stmichael** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:19 pm

access wrote:Just listened to sky sports the usual dire conversations but when you look at the revenue we have lost and the future it doesnt look brilliant.

I am now concerned because speaking to various people on sky sport 'Rafa' is of the opinion it is a 'long term' project and wont happen overnight.

THEN then review the amount of players we have bought from the year 2004 = 48 players which is the most of any of the top four [Chelsea/Manchester United/Arsenal] United have bought in 20.

I'm more concerned that you're watching sky sports. They're probably delighted that we went out last night so they can push their agenda.

by **access** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:23 pm

stmichael wrote:
access wrote:Just listened to sky sports the usual dire conversations but when you look at the revenue we have lost and the future it doesnt look brilliant.

I am now concerned because speaking to various people on sky sport 'Rafa' is of the opinion it is a 'long term' project and wont happen overnight.

THEN then review the amount of players we have bought from the year 2004 = 48 players which is the most of any of the top four [Chelsea/Manchester United/Arsenal] United have bought in 20.

I'm more concerned that you're watching sky sports. They're probably delighted that we went out last night so they can push their agenda.

I disagree .... I work with it on and yesterday they did a big build up to the game and last night Phil Thompson and the rest of the team were in the studio it wasnt a 'get at' Liverpool it was constructive and informative.

What you saying I dont watch any form of TV so I dont 'understand' how poor a team we are at the moment, and how we have made potential damaging transfere deals.

I KNOW THAT

by **REDTILLDEAD** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:32 pm

bigmick wrote:So if we had our time again, if we could spin back the clock from the end of last season, where did we feck it up the most? I know there's probably a million reasons, but which one would you do different to the way we did it, obviously with the benefit of hindsight?

No doubt the fact that we sold Alonso will figure high on lists as we've obviously missed him. We've even arguably missed him as much as some of his most ardent supporters assured us we would, but given his determination to move on, could we have stopped him? The damage had arguably already been done as far as Xabi was concerned, so was it that we didn't sign an immediate replacement?

Is it too early to describe the signing of Aquilani as a mistake given the fact that by the time he is fit we will be out of three competitions at least? Was our ultimate mistake in not making sure we got Gareth Barry, perhaps we should have asured him we were going to play him centrally?

Perhaps not signing a credible player as striker cover behind Torres was the main error of judgement, or even putting too much trust in Lucas/Babel thinking they could do a job?

Or was it the pre season, the games against Heimdalls Harriers and the like meaning that we were never fully wound up for the big kick off?

Maybe we haven't made mistakes, we're just the victims of circumstance, or perhaps we aren't actually as good as some of us think we are anyway?

So what do you reckon? My money is on signing a player who wasn't fit for central midfield and expecting Lucas to be able to fill in.

We went wrong when LFC decided to give Rafa another 5 yr contract!.......and causing discontent with Alonso resulting in him joining Madrid, and Rafa spending £20 million on a "crock" who has yet to play more than 10 minutes.we have to write yet another season off under this manager.....that's were we went wrong...and will contiue to do so until we get rid of him and some of his woeful buys. :nod

by **Johnny Boy** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:36 pm

Not buying Barry, a steal at £12 million.
Buying Aqualani, not the lads fault but we are now three months into the season and we have hardly seen him.
It's almost like we have wasted £20 million to me.
Cannot blame injuries as they just highlight how weak the squad is.
Lack or loss of form - how many have played well week in week out, I am struggling to think of many - Reina, Benny perhaps being two.

Too many players just not good enough, Drossena, Babel, Voronin etc (all bought by Rafa also).

Our form and performances in nearly all the games this season has been poor, not qualifying from our CL group when the two teams that have gone through have little or no chance of making the semi's.

All this is insignificant though as something deep down within the club is badly wrong, that's only thing that can explain so many average or indifferent performances, after all it wasn't that long ago when we had the best defence in the country, and with not too many personnel changes that has been our achillees heel all season so far.

by **NANNY RED** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:02 pm

Cheers for finding that interview Saint, I never take much notice of Souness top be honest, but a lot of what he said does strike a chord,. Yes i agree that us winning in 2005 may possible have came to early with Rafa but i dont agree with him 100 per cent on him living off his european cup win, by him still being manager, In the five years hes been here he has took us to two Euro finals , one semi an a quarter, final. if hed just won that in 2005 an done c.rap in every other year then yes you could say he was living off 2005 but imo thats not the case,

An to another question i got asked is he responsible for our downfall this season, Yes i agree he is a stubbern get an he has made decisions which have cost us.An maybe yes you could apportion a little bit of the blame his way, but hand on heart i still think he will come good for us , an still think hes the right man for the job, Maybe im a clueless arl g.et who knows but what im certain of is as someone suggested is that he is not causing our downfall on purpose to get himself the sack, Now that is fecking clueless, I said before in a post i think in this thread , At the mo he has the backing of the majority of the match going supporters surely the majority of us who go the match an support him arnt wrong, we must see something there , Myself personaly i would like to see him have a season with out finacial restraint , were he can identify a player an the money is there for that player without having to juggle, If i see a season of that an he fecks up then yes ill hold my hand up an say , ok Rafa you tried but now its time,

by **Benny The Noon** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:05 pm

That is a very good post nanny and agree with it 100% . Well said

by **kazza** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:11 pm

NANNY RED wrote:In the five years hes been here he has took us to two Euro finals , one semi an a quarter, final. if hed just won that in 2005 an done c.rap in every other year then yes you could say he was living off 2005 but imo thats not the case,

And one Europa Final

by **bigmick** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:14 pm

kazza wrote:Shock horror, another cr@p thread started by mick .

Mick you seem too happy we got knocked out .

People treat you with kid gloves here but you are a w@nker. Eight is trading!

When they say "don't get high on your own supply", they were not talking about dildo salesmen.

by **Scottbot** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:06 pm

milou wrote:
bigmick wrote:So if we had our time again, if we could spin back the clock from the end of last season, where did we feck it up the most? I know there's probably a million reasons, but which one would you do different to the way we did it, obviously with the benefit of hindsight?

No doubt the fact that we sold Alonso will figure high on lists as we've obviously missed him. We've even arguably missed him as much as some of his most ardent supporters assured us we would, but given his determination to move on, could we have stopped him? The damage had arguably already been done as far as Xabi was concerned, so was it that we didn't sign an immediate replacement?

Is it too early to describe the signing of Aquilani as a mistake given the fact that by the time he is fit we will be out of three competitions at least? Was our ultimate mistake in not making sure we got Gareth Barry, perhaps we should have asured him we were going to play him centrally?

Perhaps not signing a credible player as striker cover behind Torres was the main error of judgement, or even putting too much trust in Lucas/Babel thinking they could do a job?

Or was it the pre season, the games against Heimdalls Harriers and the like meaning that we were never fully wound up for the big kick off?

Maybe we haven't made mistakes, we're just the victims of circumstance, or perhaps we aren't actually as good as some of us think we are anyway?

So what do you reckon? My money is on signing a player who wasn't fit for central midfield and expecting Lucas to be able to fill in.

I think there is no need for argument or abuse really.. if you don't like the thread then don't comment on it.. I think it is as simple as that. But judging from the level of interest on this thread, it is pretty clear to me that this topic is relevant to most.

FWIW, our current problem in order of weightage:

1) The Yanks - need it say more?

2) Lack of money - This is not just down to the yanks but a long standing problem since other big clubs moved on with bigger and better stadiums. We are now earning millions less in EVERY home game.

3) Injury crisis - With our kind of abnormal injury list, I don't think there is a team who wouldn't struggle.. Bad luck? Bad training mythology? You be the judge..

4) Change of tactics by Rafa - Realizing the need to not just draw but to go all out to win (exactly what we have been asking him to do), he is now deploying attacking fullbacks (insua, johnson), who are unfortunately not very good defenders. This has upset the whole balance of the team.. leading to complete collapse of confidence.

5) Bad luck - Really a case of "Hero to zero".. from specializing in scoring late goals last season, we have instead now developed a habit of conceding late goals! Wouldn't we be still in with a shout in the league and UCL if our defence just held up like we normally (i said normally bcos we have come to a stage that we took it for granted really) do? And how about us not having to play away to a strong team like spurs in the FIRST game of the season? Isn't it like 6 years in a row that we have started each season with an away game? I know it is not an excuse but do you not suspect things to pan out a little differently if we played a mid-table team at home on the first day instead?

6) "Less than serious" pre-season - How could we build momentum when we were still getting hammered just a few days before the season proper? Does any one think MAYBE the automatic UCL berth (for finishing 2nd last season) didn't do us any favor either? Bcos past years, we would have at least played one serious game (against usually not very good opponents) before the first league game..

7) Loss of Alonso - I put much less weightage on his departure than most do but granted, we do miss him in certain aspects of our game. But had we defend properly (which is NOT Alonso's main duty anyway), we wouldn't be in our current mess, with or without him really. When Alonso got injured past years, you didn't see us playing as badly as we are now, right?

8) Loss of Hyypia - People are "missing" Hyypia only bcos with the benefits of hindsight that we are doing so badly defensively. Let's face it.. Most fans already accepted that Hyypia's best days are gone.

Good Post Mate

by **Scottbot** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:22 pm

I've been pretty supportive of the Rafa regime over the years but I don't have a problem with anyone who is critical, particularly at the moment. Despite a very impressive European record there is no getting away from the fact that we have been out of the title race by Christmas (sometimes earlier) in 5 of Rafa's 6 seasons in charge. My chin couldn't be any closer to the floor right now as far as football goes. I'm depressed that we still have another 6 months of the season to go and the best we have to play for is an FA Cup run and 4th place. I've been pretty cold on International fotoball ever since France 98 but I've never looked forward to a World Cup as much as this one.

As for why we're in this position, what is the main reason? Obviously there are a whole heap of factors which, when you put them together, put us in this predicament.

The biggest for me are:

- It's unusual for a club like Liverpool to lose even one player that both the manager and the fans would like to keep, usually it's the club who call time on the player. this off-season we lost THREE players who were all key players in the squad. We lost the fulcrum of the team, our best defender (in my opinion-see the game at Old Trafford last season if you think i'm barking) and a very solid fullback.

- The team is leaking goals left, right and centre. If this team was it's usual stingy self at the back we'd be a few points back, but still well and truly in the running + alive and kicking in the Champions League.

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