Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:37 pm

Owzat wrote:
s@int wrote:I posted some stats a while ago that showed that the number of goals we conceed from set pieces has TRIPPLED since Rafa came, even though our defensive record has improved overall.

Where? I want to see them, I'm curious by a stat that suggests we've trebled the number of goals against from set pieces while also conceding less overall. Makes me wonder how small or big the numbers involved actually are

I can't remember which thread they are in mate, but maybe Badbob can remember , he seemed impressed with them at the time.

I copied them off Rawk if thats any help.

by **big al** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:34 pm

The defensive players are very important to the current form Liverpool find themselves in and many of the posts that point this out are spot on but the fact is that it has not been a good defense for a number of years even before Rafa took over. That doesent mena we have'nt had good defensive records and thats the irony and the paradox. Carra and Hypia were always having to preform over and above their own individual capabilities. Compare any of are full back combinations for the last 10 years to any of the other top teams. currently and for last last few years are left backs are no comparison to Man U, Chelsea or Arsenal. The two stalwarts of our defense Carragher and Hypia have got older and Rafa has not been able to replace them. My last point is that we should never underestimate the contribution Alonso made. He had it All! Defensively he covered back, he took opponents midfield out of games because they had to mark him, He was the most fouled against player in the premiership and last year he had six players red carded against him. His passing forced defences back deeper his long range goals kept goal keepers on their line his contribution was awesome and even in his so called bad 2 seasons he made an outstanding contribution. Most fundementally of all Alonso allowed rafa to play his favoured 451 system. We don't have the players to play this system. Johnson and Insua have been exposed since the start of the season. Enough said.

by **milou** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:14 am

big al wrote:The defensive players are very important to the current form Liverpool find themselves in and many of the posts that point this out are spot on but the fact is that it has not been a good defense for a number of years even before Rafa took over. That doesent mena we have'nt had good defensive records and thats the irony and the paradox. Carra and Hypia were always having to preform over and above their own individual capabilities. Compare any of are full back combinations for the last 10 years to any of the other top teams. currently and for last last few years are left backs are no comparison to Man U, Chelsea or Arsenal. The two stalwarts of our defense Carragher and Hypia have got older and Rafa has not been able to replace them. My last point is that we should never underestimate the contribution Alonso made. He had it All! Defensively he covered back, he took opponents midfield out of games because they had to mark him, He was the most fouled against player in the premiership and last year he had six players red carded against him. His passing forced defences back deeper his long range goals kept goal keepers on their line his contribution was awesome and even in his so called bad 2 seasons he made an outstanding contribution. Most fundementally of all Alonso allowed rafa to play his favoured 451 system. We don't have the players to play this system. Johnson and Insua have been exposed since the start of the season. Enough said.

very good post.

But how could we explain our defence solidity for the past many seasons since we are constantly going thru personnel changes anyway? And Hyypia for instance hasn't been a regular for many years now. Fullbacks like taore, riise, finnan, josemi, nunez, etc have all come and gone too.

I still reckon it is "the change of heart" on rafa's part to go for more attacking tactics that has resulted us in scoring more but also conceding more. But we all know the foundation of his successes was always built on strong defence.. It was how we got back to being so fearsome in europe too (except this year).. you know the all too often "nick a goal and defend" stuffs we did year in year out. Over 2 legs (if we ever get there).. I dare say we are among the most feared opponents in europe.. just ask real madrid

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:39 am

Owzat wrote:
s@int wrote:I posted some stats a while ago that showed that the number of goals we conceed from set pieces has TRIPPLED since Rafa came, even though our defensive record has improved overall.

Where? I want to see them, I'm curious by a stat that suggests we've trebled the number of goals against from set pieces while also conceding less overall. Makes me wonder how small or big the numbers involved actually are

I had a good look for the stats mate, but the only ones I could find that I posted was one saying that 25% of our goals conceeded last season came from setpieces not including penalties ( 7 goals out of 27 in the league, 12 goals in all comps ) which I suppose gives you the scale of the problem anyway.

Maybe I read the trippled stats somewhere and never posted it or maybe the drugs are kicking in.

by **Sabre** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:43 am

8) Similarly, how is Alonso being missed SO much (as if his departure is our ONLY problem) since defence is not his main duty and we have no problem scoring?

I do agree the captain Gerrard when he recently praised the defensive game of Alonso and his positioning. But the general consensus around here was that defensively he wasn't very good. But I don't think that we should miss him that much, meaning, I think he could be more replaceable than we think, even if I think he was a big player.

For me Milou, the defence is one of our root problems. Meaning, it is one of the main problems, but this season has gone pear shaped with several root problems.

by **milou** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:14 am

Just to raise another question..

Does anyone think Reina should be doing better too? Does he have to shoulder some blame on us leaking goals too?

Don't get me wrong.. I think he is a good keeper with few mistakes. And his ball distribution and sweeper role are sometimes top class. But I am struggling to remember a game where he single-handedly won for us by "out of this world" shot-stopping all round performance.. the kind that "bailed us out of jail" NO MATTER what the opposition does! The best and fastest example that spring to mind is of cos Peter Schmeichel.

We do occasionally see such performances from less-well known opposition keepers too.. They are often spotted playing at Anfield, and almost always ex-liverpool keepers!

My only criticism for Reina is.. too often, he concedes when he is "supposed to concede".. so we seldom win when we don't deserve to.. if u know what i mean. When it comes to winning titles, you have to win a sizable amount of games that you don't even deserve to draw! Just ask the mancs...

Am I wrong? Or is it also a factor?

by **Sabre** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:29 am

I don't think I agree you there, but definitely a keeper will look worse when the CB are playing worse, that's for sure.

by **akumaface** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:37 am

The definition of being an excellent GK is that he is consistent in making saves that he is suppose to make. In another words, not giving up soft goals. I think so far, Reina hasn't giving up too many soft goals. Many of the goals were scored from close range and thus not much he can do. Even if he mades a save or two close range, those were probably more about luck than skill. Reina can be considered one of the best because you don't see him get beat often from outside the box. To me, he had done everything he was asked for. Of course, there were some scary moments or mishap but who doesn't. He rarely makes a mistake that had caused us a game or a goal. So, he can't really be blamed for the poor defence.

The back four were not consistent this year but the CM also may have cause this. Don't want to get into the Alonso thing again but Alonso was so good in his defensive positioning that we didn't even noticed it as it just seems so natural. But for Mascher, his heart is not in it. Lucas, tried his best but has his limits. So, this is why I think our defensive is poor this season.

by **milou** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:48 am

Sabre wrote:I don't think I agree you there, but definitely a keeper will look worse when the CB are playing worse, that's for sure.

Sabre, I actually don't think it look worse for reina.. as far as i am concerned, he is NOT to be blamed for almost all (if not all) the goals we conceded so far this season.

Reina is doing his job as he should.. like akumaface said, no mistakes & no soft goals.

I know it is a very unfair thing to ask.. but I actually hope he could sometimes step up and perform miracles to save us from trouble a bit more often.

I know it may sound strange but if all those keepers who came to Anfield and left with 0-0 after being bombarded with shots after shots after shots, why don't we see such performances from Reina?

by **Sabre** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:54 am

Those "inspirational keeper" moments you speak of are not science. It's something that appears in keepers in certain moments of their career, and dissapear. It's just fluke moments.

For instance Reina and his "penalty stopping legend". It's an example of these inspirational moments. They're random, Reina is not currently under a inspirational spell, but that doesn't worry me in a keeper. His regularity is what matters.

by **milou** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:58 am

Sabre wrote:Those "inspirational keeper" moments you speak of are not science. It's something that appears in keepers in certain moments of their career, and dissapear. It's just fluke moments.

For instance Reina and his "penalty stopping legend". It's an example of these inspirational moments. They're random, Reina is not currently under a inspirational spell, but that doesn't worry me in a keeper. His regularity is what matters.

Good points you raised there! Yeah.. I forgot about his legendary penalty stopping.. those were miracles too!

But I would still prefer a bit more from him in open play! :laugh:

by **Owzat** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:21 pm

s@int wrote:
Owzat wrote:
s@int wrote:I posted some stats a while ago that showed that the number of goals we conceed from set pieces has TRIPPLED since Rafa came, even though our defensive record has improved overall.

Where? I want to see them, I'm curious by a stat that suggests we've trebled the number of goals against from set pieces while also conceding less overall. Makes me wonder how small or big the numbers involved actually are

I had a good look for the stats mate, but the only ones I could find that I posted was one saying that 25% of our goals conceeded last season came from setpieces not including penalties ( 7 goals out of 27 in the league, 12 goals in all comps ) which I suppose gives you the scale of the problem anyway.

Maybe I read the trippled stats somewhere and never posted it or maybe the drugs are kicking in.

So if the seven has trebled then we only used to concede two from set pieces out of a lot more than 25?!?!?!? I could believe it if we conceded more under Rafa, perhaps it was treble the percentage rather than treble the number...............

by **milou** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:00 pm

The updated Premiership Statistics after liv vs manc:

SEASON PLAYED CLEAN-SHEET GOAL-SCORED GOAL-CONCEDED
05/06 38 22 (58%) 57 (1.5/game) 25 (0.66/game)
06/07 38 20 (53%) 57 (1.5/game) 27 (0.71/game)
07/08 38 18 (47%) 67 (1.8/game) 28 (0.73/game)
08/09 38 20 (53%) 77 (2.0/game) 27 (0.71/game)
09/10 13 3 (23%) 29 (2.2/game) 20 (1.54/game)

Defence is getting worse & we concede goals almost at will now.. some of the errors are really schoolboy's stuffs.. My goodness, how much worse can we get?

I am seriously worry for the rest of the season.

Finding faults aside.. How would we plug the gaps if you were the manager?

by **metalhead** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:06 pm

If I was a manager I'll buy a top quality defender, sell Skrtel and Kyriagkos to raise the funds for that.

Promote Ayala as a backup defender.

by **Emerald Red** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:54 pm

milou wrote:Just to raise another question..

Does anyone think Reina should be doing better too? Does he have to shoulder some blame on us leaking goals too?

Don't get me wrong.. I think he is a good keeper with few mistakes. And his ball distribution and sweeper role are sometimes top class. But I am struggling to remember a game where he single-handedly won for us by "out of this world" shot-stopping all round performance.. the kind that "bailed us out of jail" NO MATTER what the opposition does! The best and fastest example that spring to mind is of cos Peter Schmeichel.

We do occasionally see such performances from less-well known opposition keepers too.. They are often spotted playing at Anfield, and almost always ex-liverpool keepers!

My only criticism for Reina is.. too often, he concedes when he is "supposed to concede".. so we seldom win when we don't deserve to.. if u know what i mean. When it comes to winning titles, you have to win a sizable amount of games that you don't even deserve to draw! Just ask the mancs...

Am I wrong? Or is it also a factor?

Reina? No. He's been one of our better players. I rate Reina and Given to be the best two keepers in the world IMO. Both very similar.

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It is all about defence.. - Root of our problem

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