Liverpool FC Forum

by **Big Niall** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:49 pm

Nothing personal but after four seasons we are behind Everton and level with Villa & City.

Does anybody think that is good enough after spending so much money?

We are no where near competing for the title.

He should be sacked.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:15 pm

Big Niall wrote:Nothing personal but after four seasons we are behind Everton and level with Villa & City.

Does anybody think that is good enough after spending so much money?

We are no where near competing for the title.

He should be sacked.

I wonder how many backroom problems Everton, Villa and Man City are currently dealing with? Do they have owners undermining their managers in the press and working hard to heap debt on their clubs? Didn't think so.

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:52 pm

I think the "Rafa Sacked" poll should be run every month to see whether fans opinion is changing. What do you think?

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:08 pm

SouthCoastShankly wrote:I think the "Rafa Sacked" poll should be run every month to see whether fans opinion is changing. What do you think?

Maybe run it again at the end of the season. It will vary depending on individual results if we do it too often. I also believe its a bit discourtious to our manager to keep raising the question. We should at least try to get behind him till the seasons over.

If we go on to win the CL and the FA CUP, finish 4th with a great run to the end of the season, there would be few who would still strongly advocate him leaving anyway. It may be about as likely as Kuyt scoring 20 goals this season, but you never know.

by **metalhead** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:33 am

I would agree with you s@int, run it at the end of the season.

I'm trying to be patient here, I don't want Rafa OUT right now because its silly, I'm going to wait till the end of the season to see how it goes, maybe we will do the double (you never know) and qualify to the champions league. If thats the case then I would want Rafa to stay.

but if things change, ending up 5th or not winning anything, its time to install a new manager.

by **7_Kewell** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:42 am

metalhead wrote:I would agree with you s@int, run it at the end of the season.

I'm trying to be patient here, I don't want Rafa OUT right now because its silly, I'm going to wait till the end of the season to see how it goes, maybe we will do the double (you never know) and qualify to the champions league. If thats the case then I would want Rafa to stay.

but if things change, ending up 5th or not winning anything, its time to install a new manager.

summed up my feelings too there fella.....judge Rafa in the summer. If he repeats a CL season like last year then i won't be too depressed!

by **Owzat** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:04 pm

One thing I never understood was the "change the manager at the end of a season" mentality. Here's a few thoughts on why changing a manager now might actually be better :-

- He can't sign anyone so a new manager is forced to look at the player he has rather than change things without having that luxury.

- He can get a run of games to not only look at the players, but simply settle in himself. You could almost write off the first season as the new manager and players settle in, if he doesn't change all the players then it would be little different to Rafa signing a few new players every summer.

- What significance is there in giving a manager a whole campaign? Does it prove we are better than clubs who dispose of managers mid season? Rafa might get a CL final or rescue fourth, it is his fault we're uncertain of that fourth spot and not challenging despite four seasons in charge.

- Obviously there is the viewpoint that managers are employed, but since managers can be out of work at any point and there's nothing to stop us poaching a manager. Leave it long enough and the man we might want could be snapped up by someone else. Best to get in first and get the man you want than wait until the end of the season and be pipped to the post.

And I don't want Rafa "sacked", I'd prefer the board to sit down with him and assess what is going wrong. Maybe they'll agree he isn't going to deliver the league and part company. I don't believe he will win us the title, I hope he will but I'm not going to let my heart willing him to that title govern my head which says I'll be willing him on a long time and it may never happen. Do we give him seven years? Do we give him ten years? Maybe for consistency we should give him as long as it was since we last won the league when he took over.........................

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:48 pm

I think the main advantage to changing the manager at the end of the season is so you don't write off the rest of the season as the new manager settles in, but continue to pursue cups and a vital CL place.

If we were out of the cups with no chance of 4th place, I would agree with you Owzat, we would be better changing the manager now. I think the significance of Rafa's proven ability in the CL also has some bearing on the decision. Its the one area that I think we can all agree he has been outstanding, surely he deserves the chance to prove it once again? So if we go out of both cups in the next few weeks, and our league form continues on its downward spiral I would have no arguments if we brought a new manager in "early". I just think he should be given the opportunity first.

by **Judge** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:00 pm

Rafa is a gentleman though, and i thought his advice to masch on way to the tunnel was good.

at least he supports his squad

now rafa needs to build a team capable of winning, he has had enough time to work out how the premiership is panning out etc

by **metalhead** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:24 pm

I would give him another year, his last chance.

by **Owzat** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:19 am

s@int wrote:I think the main advantage to changing the manager at the end of the season is so you don't write off the rest of the season as the new manager settles in, but continue to pursue cups and a vital CL place.

If we were out of the cups with no chance of 4th place, I would agree with you Owzat, we would be better changing the manager now. I think the significance of Rafa's proven ability in the CL also has some bearing on the decision. Its the one area that I think we can all agree he has been outstanding, surely he deserves the chance to prove it once again? So if we go out of both cups in the next few weeks, and our league form continues on its downward spiral I would have no arguments if we brought a new manager in "early". I just think he should be given the opportunity first.

Well I have to disagree on the cups front, I think once the league title has gone and there's very little chance of relegation then any time is a good time. And why so much focus n the cups, it's the league we want and I'd rather maximise our chances of winning the league next season than add another trophy to the cabinet. Rafa may have shown more than capable in Europe, but that deflects from the task in hand. If we were happy just notching up the European Cup count then we wouldn't even be having this debate.

Rather than waste the start of a title campaign with the manager settling in, why not with 10 or more games to go and no chance of the title? He can then make some kind of judgement of the squad and maybe he won't get lucky the next season, but at least he won't have to start cold

Here's a recent example, decide if you still feel the same :-

Tottenham 07/08

Got rid of Jol as they were struggling in the league, even though they were doing well in the Carling Cup. Ramos comes in, the side moves to safety and wins the Carling Cup. Ramos now has a feel for the team and will know what he wants for next season. The players he brings in during the summer will take time to settle, but he will have looked at and worked with his existing players rather than having little to go on which makes buying and selling somewhat easier.

And the team will have played in Ramos' style for half a season, makes it a lot easier if even half the side are used to the new manager and his approach rather than those that survive and those that come in all having to adapt from scratch.

Or put it another way he will have had a few practice laps before starting the GP, rather than starting the GP and not knowing the corners etc at all. And he'll know the car a bit, not in race conditions but it won't be completely alien to him. And he'll have spent some time working with the team, they won't all be complete strangers.

by **Kharhaz** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:34 am

Owzat wrote:
s@int wrote:I think the main advantage to changing the manager at the end of the season is so you don't write off the rest of the season as the new manager settles in, but continue to pursue cups and a vital CL place.

If we were out of the cups with no chance of 4th place, I would agree with you Owzat, we would be better changing the manager now. I think the significance of Rafa's proven ability in the CL also has some bearing on the decision. Its the one area that I think we can all agree he has been outstanding, surely he deserves the chance to prove it once again? So if we go out of both cups in the next few weeks, and our league form continues on its downward spiral I would have no arguments if we brought a new manager in "early". I just think he should be given the opportunity first.

Well I have to disagree on the cups front, I think once the league title has gone and there's very little chance of relegation then any time is a good time. And why so much focus n the cups, it's the league we want and I'd rather maximise our chances of winning the league next season than add another trophy to the cabinet. Rafa may have shown more than capable in Europe, but that deflects from the task in hand. If we were happy just notching up the European Cup count then we wouldn't even be having this debate.

Rather than waste the start of a title campaign with the manager settling in, why not with 10 or more games to go and no chance of the title? He can then make some kind of judgement of the squad and maybe he won't get lucky the next season, but at least he won't have to start cold

Here's a recent example, decide if you still feel the same :-

Tottenham 07/08

Got rid of Jol as they were struggling in the league, even though they were doing well in the Carling Cup. Ramos comes in, the side moves to safety and wins the Carling Cup. Ramos now has a feel for the team and will know what he wants for next season. The players he brings in during the summer will take time to settle, but he will have looked at and worked with his existing players rather than having little to go on which makes buying and selling somewhat easier.

And the team will have played in Ramos' style for half a season, makes it a lot easier if even half the side are used to the new manager and his approach rather than those that survive and those that come in all having to adapt from scratch.

Or put it another way he will have had a few practice laps before starting the GP, rather than starting the GP and not knowing the corners etc at all. And he'll know the car a bit, not in race conditions but it won't be completely alien to him. And he'll have spent some time working with the team, they won't all be complete strangers.

But still spend half of the race in the pitstop !

Has a good run for a couple of laps then the cars no better than a skoda.

by **The Manhattan Project** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:04 pm

These are the minimum requirements for Rafa next season.

Champions League = Winner
FA Cup = Winner
Premiership = Winner
Simod Cup = Winner
Zenith Data Systems Cup = Winner
Will Carling Cup = Winner

Otherwise, he has to go.

by **bigmick** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:15 pm

The Manhattan Project wrote:These are the minimum requirements for Rafa next season.

Champions League = Winner
FA Cup = Winner
Premiership = Winner
Simod Cup = Winner
Zenith Data Systems Cup = Winner
Will Carling Cup = Winner

Otherwise, he has to go.

Well it looks amlost certain to be the case that Rafa will still be here next season, and provided he sticks with his new found conversion to sensible selection methods I'm all for it. If we continue as we are now and add a couple of top-class players (I know

) I think we can go very close indeed to winning it next season.

Any return to Rafa style though in the early part of next season with the inevitable result the like of which we've seen over the last four years, and I'd be all for getting rid ASAP, not waiting until the end of the campaign. The time for "options" and "possibilities", resting players after four or five games of the season, 75 changes to the team in the first fifteen games etc etc has well and truly past. We've proved it doesn't work, God knows we've tried it but we've proved it doesn't work, so lets move on.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:59 am

Owzat wrote:
s@int wrote:I think the main advantage to changing the manager at the end of the season is so you don't write off the rest of the season as the new manager settles in, but continue to pursue cups and a vital CL place.

If we were out of the cups with no chance of 4th place, I would agree with you Owzat, we would be better changing the manager now. I think the significance of Rafa's proven ability in the CL also has some bearing on the decision. Its the one area that I think we can all agree he has been outstanding, surely he deserves the chance to prove it once again? So if we go out of both cups in the next few weeks, and our league form continues on its downward spiral I would have no arguments if we brought a new manager in "early". I just think he should be given the opportunity first.

Well I have to disagree on the cups front, I think once the league title has gone and there's very little chance of relegation then any time is a good time. And why so much focus n the cups, it's the league we want and I'd rather maximise our chances of winning the league next season than add another trophy to the cabinet. Rafa may have shown more than capable in Europe, but that deflects from the task in hand. If we were happy just notching up the European Cup count then we wouldn't even be having this debate.

Rather than waste the start of a title campaign with the manager settling in, why not with 10 or more games to go and no chance of the title? He can then make some kind of judgement of the squad and maybe he won't get lucky the next season, but at least he won't have to start cold

Here's a recent example, decide if you still feel the same :-

Tottenham 07/08

Got rid of Jol as they were struggling in the league, even though they were doing well in the Carling Cup. Ramos comes in, the side moves to safety and wins the Carling Cup. Ramos now has a feel for the team and will know what he wants for next season. The players he brings in during the summer will take time to settle, but he will have looked at and worked with his existing players rather than having little to go on which makes buying and selling somewhat easier.

And the team will have played in Ramos' style for half a season, makes it a lot easier if even half the side are used to the new manager and his approach rather than those that survive and those that come in all having to adapt from scratch.

Or put it another way he will have had a few practice laps before starting the GP, rather than starting the GP and not knowing the corners etc at all. And he'll know the car a bit, not in race conditions but it won't be completely alien to him. And he'll have spent some time working with the team, they won't all be complete strangers.

It may be the league that we desperately want mate, but any season where you reach the semi's of the CL has to be recognised as an achievement. First is first and second is no-where may have some value...... but not as much as a good CL run.

I still honestly don't believe that there is anyone that could cheer us on to a CL final win and then ask for Rafa's head once the game is over. I think Rafa has done enough already to earn another season, but as Mick says if we struggle to challenge in the league yet again we could find ourselves in the same boat as this year, no league challenge but progressing in the CL, and what do we do then?

Is CL success enough?

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