Liverpool FC Forum

by **big al** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:28 am

Like so many here I can remember the first inklings of the Hicks & Gillet take over. I for one was happy that Thanksin Sinwatra bid had failed and niavely I trust Moores and Parry to do the right thing. Moores did'nt and neither did Parry. Moores sits upstairs at Anfield as life long President after selling his shares in the club to the two Americans( Bonnie and Clyde, because their two fecking gansters). He done so in the knowledge that the Bonnie and clyde would have to refinace the club to pay him and the other share holders of. Think about that for a moment Moores allowed Liverpool football club to go into dept and the took at seat upstairs as he banked the borrowed millions. Granada TV amongst others all walked away rubbing their hands but Moores stayed. The early days of Bonnie and Clyde saw them promise to stars and the moon and I have to say I think they truly believed they could deliver. Had we not had global melt down then they just might have done so. Liverpool had a turnover last year of £158million sadly a large percentage of this went to pay of the interest of the loan. So the club can even make money in an economic down turn. A new stadium may well have generated the extra finances to pay the loan of within a 5 year period, Bonnie and clyde gambled and failed and then they fell out. The catalyst for the falling out was Rafa Benitez. It was'nt at that time that he was under preforming no it was simply that he could not bring in major investment. Rafa lacked the profile and the contacts with big business. Big business is how American sports survive and actually sometimes thrive. The yanks saw in Klinsmann an opportunity to bring Nike into play. One would think that at this point Rick Parry would have stepped in and warned them of the consequences of such a move. However it seems that not only did Parry not cousel the Yanks against this he acted as a go between and set a meeting up with Klinsmann. Now I want to tell eveyone of you something else about Parry before I go any further. But for Parry's intervention Steven Gerrard would be now playing in a blue Chelsea shirt there is no doubt of that. Gerrard got absolutely no encouragement form Rafa to stay. Parry was clever enough to realise that he could not allow liverpools number one asset to go to Chelsea. Many fans on here have forgiven Rafa that one because Gerrard stayed. Their was no Parry at the end of last season when Rafa decided to give the best passing player in the world (Alonso)the same disinterest and treatment that he had given Gerrard. So whilst Parry had preceded over too many years in the widerness he also was responsible for the unthinkable being averted. Therefore the fact that Parry set down in a hotel room with the Yanks and Klinsmann is an indicator that he no longer favoured nor trusted Rafa. After this meeting came the spilt as Hicks began to form an allegiance with Rafa. Thus began a power struggle which would eventually lead to Parry being ousted and Gillet trying to offload his 50% of the club. I none of this did the fans have a choice. Despite the apparent public openness of the spilt the facts remain untold. I give Parry credit for that.

A lot of people on this site have been calling for the head of rafa because of his record and his inabilities and your all very much entitled to do this. Goodness knows he's brought much of it on himself by being overly cautious and relying to much on staistical analyisis. football is not one by statistics it won by people who put there heart and soul into a game. Anyway I just want to simply say that it doesent matter what we think or what we say here or in phone in's. Liverpool is in trouble because the owners, the directors, the president, and the manager don't know how to behave as a club. regardless of what we all might think of Benetiz no one can deny that he has publically added to the problems by washing his dirty linen in Public. So I personally am blaming all the officials at the club. I truly believe that their is a lot more pain to come before it gets better and I am not just talking about the next 4 fixtures of which we'll be lucky to get a win. I talking about losing some of the best players we have because the club will have to cut its financial cloth accordingly. Lastly I would add that having money is nice as a football club it allows you to buy players of higher quality but no fan or group of fans have to right nor indeed the choice about how much owners can spent. The thing is that there are some brilliant managers and brilliant teams who have success with budgets much smaller than Liverpools. Arsenal and Wenger for one. Maybe whats really and truly the issue here is that Liverpool has lost its place for the moment as a buying club and perhaps we need to stop trying to compete financially with Man U and Chelsea Maybe the key to success is not the Way Rafa Benetiz wants to go maybe we need to go back to basics and build a new legacy fit for the 21st century as Shankly did at the end of the 20th century. Whatever happens believe me you have no choice the only choice you have is to go to games or not , to get behind the team or not or to stop be the opposite to what liverpool stands for and walk alone.

by **big al** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:35 am

maguskwt rafa has a budget for the window. Madrid we be paying more of alsonso fee in that period.

by **Rush Job** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:46 am

maguskwt wrote:How strange the opinions on here change quickly... well it is strange and expected at the same time so that in itself is a strange phenomenon mostly capable by fans...

Why is it strange? Because we never heard these complaints last season. We never heard the complaints that alot of our players are 'league one material' that there are dross after dross after dross. That after 5 years Benitez didn't manage to build a team with good cover. Why didn't we hear that? Is it really that bad?

The only difference between last season's squad and this season's squad is Johnson for Arbeloa, Aquilani for Alonso. Most on here agree that Johnson for Arbeloa is an improvement. So, we have the only difference of Aquilani for Alonso. Aquilani hasn't had the chance to prove himself yet so we can't say that he's worse off than Alonso. But the problem is he has been injured. Now last season, we also had Gerrard, Torres, and Alonso injured for long spells one time or another. But alot of the time, if I remember correctly, we had one of them either Alonso to steady the boat, Gerrard to drive the team, or Torres to give a threat. On top of that Carragher was still as steady as a rock. His partnership with Skrtl last season if you look back is unrecogniseable from the current partnership. We rarely lost. We only lost 2 games all season.

Fast forward to this season. What went wrong when the only difference is Aquilani for Alonso? Carragher somehow lost his confidence and are making too many errors. As a result Skrtl is also making errors. Dirk Kuyt is Dirk Kuyt, but without Alonso, he has lost his offensive threat. Riera has somehow lost his 1st season form. And now Gerrard and Torres is out at the same time after playing for their national teams.

It is hard to argue that these are not unlucky circumstances that has really affected Rafa's game plans. But somehow our fans are able to argue this whether it makes sense or not. Our squad is only ONE player different from last season's squad, so why didnt all of the people who are shouting our squad is dross raise the alarm bell last season?

The truth as usual is somewhere in the middle. Our squad is not as strong as some make out to be (refer to comments like our squad is as strong as anybody and capable of winning the league). Or as weak as some are making out to be now. Last season we had our lucky breaks like it or not. How many games was it when we were losing and some dumb feck from the other team would come along and take out Alonso and receive a red card which enabled us to storm their defences and win from behind? How many games did we had when we were losing and either Gerrard or Torres would score a last minute equalizer. If you people who are criticizing the manager right now when he's down are so smart why didn't you warn last season, "Hold on a min... our squad is still dross, we are just being lucky". Instead comments were "Our squad can challenge for this and that"... "Lucas is a top top player he is still very young" etc etc etc.

And it is also our fans that criticized the manager 2-3 years ago " NO more quantity, go for quality". Maybe the manager heard this and did just that. After 1st two years of really buying squad fillers and starting from Torres, he had started buying quality players like Masch, Riera, Agger, Benayoun and also unfortunately gambled on Babel, Lucas and Dossena. Which manager doesn't make mistakes? Is this an excuse? No. Ferguson made plenty of these mistakes. The only difference is that with every mistake Benitez wasn't financially supported to undo the mistake. What's worse after making a mistake like Keane and sold him, he wasn't able to spend the money he had recouped. He continued the policy of buying quality with Johnson and Aquilani.

The truth is that last season Rafa had done very well to assemble a team and a squad to play like he wanted to. It has been decades that Liverpool played such attractive attacking football. But the squad was not what some made out to be "as good as any". The squad had quality players but lacking in cover. But how come we didn't hear today's criticisms? The squad was promising but needed a final touch. The final step is always the hardest and I must say the owners failed to support Rafa to make this final step. He was told to sell in order to buy, and sell Rafa did in order to try and keep the progress going on. We had an unhappy player in Alonso and we sold him for an amount fans only dreamed of. Rafa has bought Keane for 20 million and sold him for 14 million because clearly the player was not working out. Surely he should have been able to spend that 14 million on a replacement? Never materialised. On top of that Rafa was promised 20 million in transfer kitty and together with that 14 million and the sale of 30 million he should have had 64 million to spend. Add to that sales of other players like Leto, Arbeloa, etc and he should nearly have 70 million to spend. So he went out to spend 17 million for Johnson. Quality for Quantity and everyone agreed it was in improvent. And then we were linked with all sorts of players like Silva, Villa, Upson, Tevez, Barry, etc etc. But now by then Rafa realised that he may not have much to spend after all. It's very strange isn't it? You are supposed to have the money recouped from sale of players and the transfer kitty in total of 70 million. So then he decided he would have to replace Alonso with someone who can potentially be a star but has great value, and that someone is Aquilani, the best young and most promising midfielder available, an Italian international, and someone who had made differences for his previous club Roma, albeit injured. And even though he would cost 20 million with add ons, he would only cost around 5 million at the moment. Did Rafa choose this gamble of a deal because he really was told not to spend anymore and chooses to pay the rest of Aquilani's with his future transfer kitty? Didn't Rafa say Aquilani is "not for 5 weeks but for 5 years?". It is possible and we will not really know but the acquisition of Aquilani already shows Rafa's desperation. It was the next best thing to do if you don't have money, to buy a promising young Italian International with little money upfront, instead of buying another squad filler. Again Quality over Quantity, only thing he had to deal with a player who was still coming back from injury. So 17million + 20 million + 1 million for the greek which is around 38 million. Where is the rest, 32 million of 70 million that Rafa should have had in the beginning of the season to replace the lost of players like Alonso and to find a good back-up for Torres and replace Keane? With that 32 million, Rafa could have bought 2 decent players (someone like Huntelaar or Van der Vaart and another decent centre back) which could have make alot of difference in the current situation we are in.

So yes, Rafa IS a victim of circumstances brought about mainly by the lack of financial support by our owners. All rafa needed was to spend the full amount of money he recouped and a very sensible transfer kitty of 20 million to build upon the success of last season and to truely build a title challenging squad. I'm not saying Rafa didn't do mistakes. He did make mistakes in buying Babel, Lucas, Dossena and Keane. But he is probably the only manager of a top team who had to pay for these mistakes in the way he has to now.

PS This was something I wanted to post first in the thread/poll I opened "The Squad: Not good enough without Gerrard and Torres, Who's fault is it?" but then the mods killed it...

Good post mate.
Its also worth noting that we only got Johnson because pompy was due us ( a sum that was being drip fed to us), it was the only way Rafa could get access to the money due and they were so happy with the debt being wrote of what with their troubles that they only needed a few mill up front.
If Johnson played for anyone else we would never have signed him, that pritty much a fact.
So considering that the Aquilani deal is also spread over a number of seasons how much did we really spend?

by **LFC2007** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:48 am

big al wrote:Gerrard got absolutely no encouragement form Rafa to stay. Parry was clever enough to realise that he could not allow liverpools number one asset to go to Chelsea.

I remember Rafa urging Gerrard to stay at the club in a press conference at the height of the Chelsea saga. I presumed most people had seen it.

by **Igor Zidane** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:50 am

big al wrote:Like so many here I can remember the first inklings of the Hicks & Gillet take over. I for one was happy that Thanksin Sinwatra bid had failed and niavely I trust Moores and Parry to do the right thing. Moores did'nt and neither did Parry. Moores sits upstairs at Anfield as life long President after selling his shares in the club to the two Americans( Bonnie and Clyde, because their two fecking gansters). He done so in the knowledge that the Bonnie and clyde would have to refinace the club to pay him and the other share holders of. Think about that for a moment Moores allowed Liverpool football club to go into dept and the took at seat upstairs as he banked the borrowed millions. Granada TV amongst others all walked away rubbing their hands but Moores stayed. The early days of Bonnie and Clyde saw them promise to stars and the moon and I have to say I think they truly believed they could deliver. Had we not had global melt down then they just might have done so. Liverpool had a turnover last year of £158million sadly a large percentage of this went to pay of the interest of the loan. So the club can even make money in an economic down turn. A new stadium may well have generated the extra finances to pay the loan of within a 5 year period, Bonnie and clyde gambled and failed and then they fell out. The catalyst for the falling out was Rafa Benitez. It was'nt at that time that he was under preforming no it was simply that he could not bring in major investment. Rafa lacked the profile and the contacts with big business. Big business is how American sports survive and actually sometimes thrive. The yanks saw in Klinsmann an opportunity to bring Nike into play. One would think that at this point Rick Parry would have stepped in and warned them of the consequences of such a move. However it seems that not only did Parry not cousel the Yanks against this he acted as a go between and set a meeting up with Klinsmann. Now I want to tell eveyone of you something else about Parry before I go any further. But for Parry's intervention Steven Gerrard would be now playing in a blue Chelsea shirt there is no doubt of that. Gerrard got absolutely no encouragement form Rafa to stay. Parry was clever enough to realise that he could not allow liverpools number one asset to go to Chelsea. Many fans on here have forgiven Rafa that one because Gerrard stayed. Their was no Parry at the end of last season when Rafa decided to give the best passing player in the world (Alonso)the same disinterest and treatment that he had given Gerrard. So whilst Parry had preceded over too many years in the widerness he also was responsible for the unthinkable being averted. Therefore the fact that Parry set down in a hotel room with the Yanks and Klinsmann is an indicator that he no longer favoured nor trusted Rafa. After this meeting came the spilt as Hicks began to form an allegiance with Rafa. Thus began a power struggle which would eventually lead to Parry being ousted and Gillet trying to offload his 50% of the club. I none of this did the fans have a choice. Despite the apparent public openness of the spilt the facts remain untold. I give Parry credit for that.

A lot of people on this site have been calling for the head of rafa because of his record and his inabilities and your all very much entitled to do this. Goodness knows he's brought much of it on himself by being overly cautious and relying to much on staistical analyisis. football is not one by statistics it won by people who put there heart and soul into a game. Anyway I just want to simply say that it doesent matter what we think or what we say here or in phone in's. Liverpool is in trouble because the owners, the directors, the president, and the manager don't know how to behave as a club. regardless of what we all might think of Benetiz no one can deny that he has publically added to the problems by washing his dirty linen in Public. So I personally am blaming all the officials at the club. I truly believe that their is a lot more pain to come before it gets better and I am not just talking about the next 4 fixtures of which we'll be lucky to get a win. I talking about losing some of the best players we have because the club will have to cut its financial cloth accordingly. Lastly I would add that having money is nice as a football club it allows you to buy players of higher quality but no fan or group of fans have to right nor indeed the choice about how much owners can spent. The thing is that there are some brilliant managers and brilliant teams who have success with budgets much smaller than Liverpools. Arsenal and Wenger for one. Maybe whats really and truly the issue here is that Liverpool has lost its place for the moment as a buying club and perhaps we need to stop trying to compete financially with Man U and Chelsea Maybe the key to success is not the Way Rafa Benetiz wants to go maybe we need to go back to basics and build a new legacy fit for the 21st century as Shankly did at the end of the 20th century. Whatever happens believe me you have no choice the only choice you have is to go to games or not , to get behind the team or not or to stop be the opposite to what liverpool stands for and walk alone.

Well Al it certainly seems Rafa is walking alone at the moment .

Any critisism that rafa is getting ragarding the footballing side of things is hard to defend at the minute , but putting him in the same boat as the owners ,moores and parry is way way wide of the mark imo . Like i've said on other threads if we are just judging rafa on his abilities to manage a football team and his ability to get said team to win bl00dy things ,then there a pretty good debate to be had . Unfortunately for us and for Rafa ,this is know ordinary football club , Owned by so called custodians who can't stand one another ,can't stand the fans and one of them who can't stand the manager . Rafa is not only attempting to fight the man utd's and chelsea's of this world . He's also fighting our feckin owners who have systematically undermined him and the very football club from virtually day one .
Remember "the liverpool way "AL , well part of that is not sacking the manager and showing full support inside the ground . Outside in the ale house or on an internet forum ,do what the feck you like .The football club is fecked from top to bottom and there only one man trying his heart out to keep it all together as far as i'm concerned .

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:01 am

interesting artcle from Tony Barret in the times.

Four consecutive losses have left Liverpool seemingly at the risk of implosion. After defeat by Lyons in the Champions League on Tuesday, their next opponents are Manchester United and Rafael Benítez’s side will take to the pitch at Anfield on Sunday in the knowledge that another loss would all but end their Barclays Premier League title hopes with seven months of the campaign remaining.

The Times considers what defeat would mean to the players, supporters, owners — and Benítez.

Rafael Benítez :

Despite having signed a new five-year contract seven months ago, he is not immune from dismissal, but could the club afford to sack him even if they wished to? A salary in the region of £4 million a season would entitle him to a payoff of about £18 million.

However, Liverpool’s annual profits are being swallowed up by interest payments on the £250 million debt built up by Tom Hicks and George Gillett Jr, the co-owners, and the club could not afford to make the four signings their manager sought in the summer, so it is questionable if they would have the means to remove him.

Equally, one of the main reasons that Benítez was awarded such a long-term deal was the owners’ desire to present a picture of stability to potential investors. Sacking him now would not only expose that charade, it would also present Hicks and Gillett with the problem of finding a new manager.

Benítez, though, needs results — and he needs them badly. In recent weeks it has appeared as if the numerous internal battles have taken their toll. Real Madrid are often touted as the most likely providers of an exit strategy for the Spaniard, but should Liverpool’s form continue to decline, then their manager’s stock would suffer commensurately.

The players :

Team spirit has been lacking since pre-season. It is almost as if the established stars recognised that the squad was not equipped to challenge for the biggest prizes and that their belief in the Benítez project has diminished.

Fernando Torres, Steven Gerrard, Jamie Carragher and Javier Mascherano are top-class performers, but none has been at his best. All, apart from Mascherano, appear committed to the club, but their patience would surely be tested if Liverpool fell out of the title race with so much of the season to be played.

Torres, Gerrard and Mascherano have next year’s World Cup finals in the back of their minds and the concern for Benítez would be how to get the best out of his big names without the motivation of a title challenge or a good run in the Champions League.

The biggest worry, though, would be how the owners would respond to the doomsday scenario of failure to qualify for next season’s Champions League. Lose on Sunday and the gap between Liverpool and the top five could increase to five points. If Liverpool were to fall out of the “big four” picture altogether, then Hicks and Gillett could feasibly make up for the loss of prize money by using player sales to finance their debt repayments. The most saleable assets would be those the club could least afford to lose.

The supporters :

The booing that greeted Benítez’s decision to replace Yossi Benayoun with Andriy Voronin on Tuesday may not have been new to Anfield regulars, but the ferocity of their disapproval was. This was the moment when frustration about Liverpool’s inability to arrest their decline bubbled over, although a little more than half an hour earlier Benítez’s name had been sung by the Kop after his team took the lead through Benayoun.

The fans stood shoulder to shoulder with Benítez when his job was under threat two years ago. They even marched to the stadium in protest at plans by Hicks and Gillett to replace him with Jürgen Klinsmann. There are few clubs where the relationship between manager and supporters is as strong as at Anfield, a legacy of the legendary Bill Shankly’s incredible bond with the Anfield crowd. Benítez will know, however, that even such powerful devotion is conditional and a failure to get results will inevitably lead to even his most committed fans questioning his ability to win the league title they crave.

A defeat by United would further damage his lustre in the eyes of those who have backed him so resolutely. However, it should also be noted that the more political supporters lay the blame for the problems on the pitch at the owners’ door rather than Benítez’s.

The owners :

The situation at Liverpool has become so desperate in recent weeks that there are some fans who have argued that they might be able to stomach defeat on Sunday if it pushed the owners they revile closer to the exit.

Hicks and Gillett are expected to attend the match and are likely to be in for a rough ride as disenchantment with their regime reaches new heights. A march in protest against the Americans has been organised and the Spirit Of Shankly supporters’ union are hopeful that thousands of people will join their campaign.

The owners have refused to budge despite their lack of popularity and the overwhelming feeling is that they will quit Anfield willingly only if an investor makes it financially worthwhile. Both are involved in an as yet unsuccessful search for investment, with the Middle East the centre of their attentions. Their problem is that potential investors would argue that Liverpool’s value will be reduced should the club fail to make it through to the lucrative stages of this season’s Champions League and increasingly likely failure to qualify for next season’s competition.

How they would react to another damaging defeat is open to question, given the public support that Gillett offered to Benítez this week and the backing that has been afforded to the manager by Hicks in the past.

Should they see his presence at the helm as being potentially damaging to their chances of securing investment, or a total sale of the club, they could begin to see Benítez as expendable.

Bert of the web :

‘Another disgraceful display. It’s time to remove the board and the manager’

“What is Benítez bleating about an injury crisis for? Yes, the loss of Torres and Gerrard would not help any team. But you have other class players in the squad. My only concern is that the fringe players who have come in when you get the odd injury are not Premier League class.” irjmorris, bbc.co.uk/606

“It’s another disgraceful display. It’s time to remove the board and the manager. Time to go.” chage9, bbc.co.uk/606

“Liverpool’s squad is nowhere near as good as Man Utd’s, Chelsea’s or even Arsenal’s. When Rooney or Vidic are injured for United, they grind out wins. Liverpool simply do not.” Bigorchx, bbc.co.uk/606

“Both Ngog and Babel wouldn’t get a regular place in any of the other top five or six teams, so why are they considered good enough for Liverpool? I love my team and I love their history, but I’m totally not in love with this manager. I, for one, am entitled to my opinion, born of 40 years’ worth of dedicated support for LFC . . . and Benítez was not, is not and never will be the right man at the helm in Liverpool.” PJ, timesonline.co.uk

“Come on, people. Benítez loves to play the politics and to play the innocent. It is never down to him and he never gets it wrong. For God’s sake, even SAF [Sir Alex Ferguson] sometimes admits he gets it wrong. Now that Benítez has control of all football matters, perhaps he will run out of excuses and they will finish seventh. Benítez gets some good results, so there is some talent in there, but he spends too much time complaining about others to focus on his own shortcomings. Sure the owners are a basketcase but the buck stops with the manager.” Jon Ranger, timesonline.co.uk

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by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:47 am

Dazzer wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:Another Rafa-bashing thread.

How thoroughly original...

Go back under the rock you came from under.

You only pop up when you getting some air from giving rafa head let the man say his peice he is always fair in his views if you bothered to ever read his posts with out spunk in ya eye ya soft prat you might see that.

He only asking the questions most of us are thinking about.

And I was giving the answer I was thinking about.

You horrible little worm.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:50 am

Gerrard30391 wrote:Lando doesnt know the meaning of football posting. Every post has to contain a swear word. I give him til Xmas. Ok he hasn't had the money but the team could challenge last year, so why not this?

And yet you all feel the need to mention me.

How thoughtful of you. I must remember to send you all a Christmas card this year.

Do the Royal Mail deliver to "C*nts Anonymous" meetings?

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:52 am

Dazzer wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Not Too Xabi wrote:Broadly speaking, we can no longer control a game.

Hardly surprising when more than half of your first choice 11 are all injured and you've to make do with bargain bucket squad fillers to take up the mantal. Lucas and Spearing for central pair anyone? Na, didn't think so either. At the minute, injuries and some bad luck have turned our season upside down.

Thats the point tho isn't it 2-3 players out and we can't control a game even at home in CL total sh.it 5 years now and we still are a 2 man team.

Is the Champions' League the new Milk Cup, then?

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:54 am

bunglemark2 wrote:"Again, I will say we had chances and everything could have been different."
A quote from our managerial maestro after the game.....
Gimme a break you muppet.

Unfortunately, the irony of your post will be lost to all but the chosen few...

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:56 am

Dazzer wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Dazzer wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Not Too Xabi wrote:Broadly speaking, we can no longer control a game.

Hardly surprising when more than half of your first choice 11 are all injured and you've to make do with bargain bucket squad fillers to take up the mantal. Lucas and Spearing for central pair anyone? Na, didn't think so either. At the minute, injuries and some bad luck have turned our season upside down.

Thats the point tho isn't it 2-3 players out and we can't control a game even at home in CL total sh.it 5 years now and we still are a 2 man team.

Hardly. You take 5 or 6 of your best players out of ANY team in the country, and suddenly you'll look a little ragged. Were we playing a Coca-Cola Championship side tonight? No. We were playing a well organised Lyon outfit in the top tier in Europe, and let's be honest, Gerrard and Torres have hardly been on top form this season either, even if Torres has scored a fair amount in the league, he's still been below his best.

Like I've said in the past few days, we have a excellent first 11, but the difference between us and the rest is that Chelsea, United and even City can afford to spend 20 million plus on their fringe players. We can't.

how much are you getting paid to chat this bollox ?

Like I've said in the past few days, we have a excellent first 11, but the difference between us and the rest is that Chelsea, United and even City can afford to spend 20 million plus on their fringe players. We can't.

I think you find we had enough over the last 5 years to build a team but Rafa fu.cked it up so no you are wrong.

Plus I doubt every fringe player at chelsea and man U don't cost 20 mil those are numbers you just made up in your mind to support you dumbfounded claim.

Awww, bless you, child.

Still haven't mastered Primary school mathematics.

Oh well - you could always get a job on the dole...

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:59 am

bunglemark2 wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
bunglemark2 wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Dazzer wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Not Too Xabi wrote:Broadly speaking, we can no longer control a game.

Hardly surprising when more than half of your first choice 11 are all injured and you've to make do with bargain bucket squad fillers to take up the mantal. Lucas and Spearing for central pair anyone? Na, didn't think so either. At the minute, injuries and some bad luck have turned our season upside down.

Thats the point tho isn't it 2-3 players out and we can't control a game even at home in CL total sh.it 5 years now and we still are a 2 man team.

Hardly. You take 5 or 6 of your best players out of ANY team in the country, and suddenly you'll look a little ragged. Were we playing a Coca-Cola Championship side tonight? No. We were playing a well organised Lyon outfit in the top tier in Europe, and let's be honest, Gerrard and Torres have hardly been on top form this season either, even if Torres has scored a fair amount in the league, he's still been below his best.

Emerald, your optimism is truly astonishing. But for the life of me, I can't see a single ray of hope at the moment.
We are cack at the back, lifeless and have no inspiration in midfield, and toothless in front of goal except when we play a no-hope team.....
We have a pathetic bench to choose from, players that nobody else wants to sign, and a manager who talks utter tripe like there's no tomorrow....
I am a fan of this club for as long as I can remember but this is just a shade too far. It's embarrassing.

I'm not denying it. We're atrocious all over the pitch. We can't seem to get anything cohesive going at all. But I refuse to believe that whenever our first choice is available and confidence is good, that we are anything other than a very, very good side capable of competing for anything. We all knew our squad was thin last year. We all knew where and what needed to be done in the transfer market in the summer. Did Rafa f*ck it up in the Summer, or was he hindered by lack of funds in order to fill the positions we needed. From what I've read, he wanted Villa and certainly went for Silva. The funds just weren't there. Now either Rafa was lying or the Yanks lied to him. I recall a statement made by Rafa in the press that he could afford at least another big money signing to come after he signed Johnson for 18 million. Where was it?

Thing is, I'm optimistic because things can seriously only get better rather than worse. They have to. It's the only way this football club can survive. Those that boo'd inside Anfield tonight over a sub should all f*cking hang their heads in shame.

Mate, Rafa DID phuck it up in the summer in my opinion. Aquilani - or better - the GAMBLE on Aquilani knowing he wouldn't kick a ball in anger for months is naievete on his part; Alonso was going anyway so to not line up a replacement on Day 1 is an absolute sham. I don't recall if we ever had a firm offer for Voronin or not, but if we didn't, the very fact that he is in the squad ahead of whar's-his-face out in AEK Athens is a sham; the constant backing of Lucas is a sham; the handling of Keane, Crouch, Bellamy is a sham; the whinings to the press is a sham.....
And I DO think things will get better. Sunderland knew exactly how to inflict damage at the weekend; Lyon did tonight; Manure will at the weekend. And Benitez has absolutely NO strategy to counter it. None. Nothing.

It's all a sham, isn't it, Bungle?

Do you even listen to yourself?

by **Lando_Griffin** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:04 am

LFC2007 wrote:
big al wrote:Gerrard got absolutely no encouragement form Rafa to stay. Parry was clever enough to realise that he could not allow liverpools number one asset to go to Chelsea.

I remember Rafa urging Gerrard to stay at the club in a press conference at the height of the Chelsea saga. I presumed most people had seen it.

No, you obviously just watched an episode of Friends.

You know - the one guest-starring Rafael Benitez as a cold-hearted manager who goes down on one knee and proposes to his Captain, promising to love, honour and obey his every wish, dream and command...

Well - that's how the successful managers do it, isn't it...?

Isn't it? :oh:

by **Trewyn** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:21 am

Igor Zidane wrote:
big al wrote:Like so many here I can remember the first inklings of the Hicks & Gillet take over. I for one was happy that Thanksin Sinwatra bid had failed and niavely I trust Moores and Parry to do the right thing. Moores did'nt and neither did Parry. Moores sits upstairs at Anfield as life long President after selling his shares in the club to the two Americans( Bonnie and Clyde, because their two fecking gansters). He done so in the knowledge that the Bonnie and clyde would have to refinace the club to pay him and the other share holders of. Think about that for a moment Moores allowed Liverpool football club to go into dept and the took at seat upstairs as he banked the borrowed millions. Granada TV amongst others all walked away rubbing their hands but Moores stayed. The early days of Bonnie and Clyde saw them promise to stars and the moon and I have to say I think they truly believed they could deliver. Had we not had global melt down then they just might have done so. Liverpool had a turnover last year of £158million sadly a large percentage of this went to pay of the interest of the loan. So the club can even make money in an economic down turn. A new stadium may well have generated the extra finances to pay the loan of within a 5 year period, Bonnie and clyde gambled and failed and then they fell out. The catalyst for the falling out was Rafa Benitez. It was'nt at that time that he was under preforming no it was simply that he could not bring in major investment. Rafa lacked the profile and the contacts with big business. Big business is how American sports survive and actually sometimes thrive. The yanks saw in Klinsmann an opportunity to bring Nike into play. One would think that at this point Rick Parry would have stepped in and warned them of the consequences of such a move. However it seems that not only did Parry not cousel the Yanks against this he acted as a go between and set a meeting up with Klinsmann. Now I want to tell eveyone of you something else about Parry before I go any further. But for Parry's intervention Steven Gerrard would be now playing in a blue Chelsea shirt there is no doubt of that. Gerrard got absolutely no encouragement form Rafa to stay. Parry was clever enough to realise that he could not allow liverpools number one asset to go to Chelsea. Many fans on here have forgiven Rafa that one because Gerrard stayed. Their was no Parry at the end of last season when Rafa decided to give the best passing player in the world (Alonso)the same disinterest and treatment that he had given Gerrard. So whilst Parry had preceded over too many years in the widerness he also was responsible for the unthinkable being averted. Therefore the fact that Parry set down in a hotel room with the Yanks and Klinsmann is an indicator that he no longer favoured nor trusted Rafa. After this meeting came the spilt as Hicks began to form an allegiance with Rafa. Thus began a power struggle which would eventually lead to Parry being ousted and Gillet trying to offload his 50% of the club. I none of this did the fans have a choice. Despite the apparent public openness of the spilt the facts remain untold. I give Parry credit for that.

A lot of people on this site have been calling for the head of rafa because of his record and his inabilities and your all very much entitled to do this. Goodness knows he's brought much of it on himself by being overly cautious and relying to much on staistical analyisis. football is not one by statistics it won by people who put there heart and soul into a game. Anyway I just want to simply say that it doesent matter what we think or what we say here or in phone in's. Liverpool is in trouble because the owners, the directors, the president, and the manager don't know how to behave as a club. regardless of what we all might think of Benetiz no one can deny that he has publically added to the problems by washing his dirty linen in Public. So I personally am blaming all the officials at the club. I truly believe that their is a lot more pain to come before it gets better and I am not just talking about the next 4 fixtures of which we'll be lucky to get a win. I talking about losing some of the best players we have because the club will have to cut its financial cloth accordingly. Lastly I would add that having money is nice as a football club it allows you to buy players of higher quality but no fan or group of fans have to right nor indeed the choice about how much owners can spent. The thing is that there are some brilliant managers and brilliant teams who have success with budgets much smaller than Liverpools. Arsenal and Wenger for one. Maybe whats really and truly the issue here is that Liverpool has lost its place for the moment as a buying club and perhaps we need to stop trying to compete financially with Man U and Chelsea Maybe the key to success is not the Way Rafa Benetiz wants to go maybe we need to go back to basics and build a new legacy fit for the 21st century as Shankly did at the end of the 20th century. Whatever happens believe me you have no choice the only choice you have is to go to games or not , to get behind the team or not or to stop be the opposite to what liverpool stands for and walk alone.

Well Al it certainly seems Rafa is walking alone at the moment .

Any critisism that rafa is getting ragarding the footballing side of things is hard to defend at the minute , but putting him in the same boat as the owners ,moores and parry is way way wide of the mark imo . Like i've said on other threads if we are just judging rafa on his abilities to manage a football team and his ability to get said team to win bl00dy things ,then there a pretty good debate to be had . Unfortunately for us and for Rafa ,this is know ordinary football club , Owned by so called custodians who can't stand one another ,can't stand the fans and one of them who can't stand the manager . Rafa is not only attempting to fight the man utd's and chelsea's of this world . He's also fighting our feckin owners who have systematically undermined him and the very football club from virtually day one .
Remember "the liverpool way "AL , well part of that is not sacking the manager and showing full support inside the ground . Outside in the ale house or on an internet forum ,do what the feck you like .The football club is fecked from top to bottom and there only one man trying his heart out to keep it all together as far as i'm concerned .

Hear hear

It's really too easy to blame the manager eh?

My hypothesis is that this was coming because much more dire issues are happening in the boardroom (which we don't know) has caused the proverbial sh1t to finally hit the roof. One of which I suspect was a promise of $xx amt at the start of this season where Rafa started to negotiate and plan his spending, only to be lied to and denied that $xx amt at the end, causing a last min rush to get players with whatever cash that was truly available. That fiasco with that old man greek we bought whom I can't be bothered spelling his name seems to point to this.

I still standby my focus on sorting the owners and cashflow of the club before even thinking of changing managers.

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:27 am

But Purslow said that all the targets were secured, and all of the money earmarked was spent

Are we to start referring to him as "fecking Purslow :angry:

" from now on?

On a slight side note, this is by a distance the most plausible explanation in my view for our extremely odd prioritisation this Summer. I've said it myself a few times and I was one of the few who was all for signing Johnson as I think he's a top player. It just seems an odd piece of business in the overall scheme of things. That said it wouldn't be our first.

I'll start it anyway, from now on it's "fecking Purslow :angry:

" and all his fault.

Liverpool FC Forum

Rafa. a victim of circumstance..... - Or has he fecked it up?

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