Liverpool FC Forum

by **andy_g** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:54 am

he's a victim of circumstance. however, he has had a hand in creating those circumstances.

as many point out, our first choice starting eleven is mouthwatering; reina, johnson, carra, agger, aurelio, mascherano, aquilani, kuyt, reira, gerrard, torres. that team could - and probably should - beat anybody out there. the problem so far this season is that we haven't been able to play that team, or anything near it. benitez did the right thing in buying quality with aquilani and i think his calculated bet was about right that lucas and mascherano and gerrard would be able to hold the fort until the italian was ready. however, he wasn't to know that lucas just wouldn't step up, that mascherano would be day dreaming of barcelona instead of playing his game, that kuyt wouldn't be at the level he was at the end of last season, that agger would take longer to get back to fitness, and that reira, torres and gerrard would spend time early on out injured.

but then again, why over the last 5 years has he not built a squad capable of covering tough times? outside of that utterly delicious first 11 we have - apart from benayoun and possibly insua - dross backed up by dross with a bit of dross waiting in the wings. and drossena. in my opinion he has made a series of serious misjudgements with the purchase of squad players and a serious misjudgement espcecially with the lack of cover for torres. there is quite a few million quids worth of dross there as back up players so the 'he hasn't had money to spend' argument doesn't wash with me.

i know he has had trouble with the owners etc etc etc. but with the money he HAS been able to spend over the last 5 years we should have a much stronger squad and at least 2 decent strikers.

he also could have handled the alonso situation a lot better. its hard to tell if the summer he tried to flog him was a ploy to get his level back up again, or whether he really did want shut. if he wanted shut then he seriously misjudged alonso quality, despite him having had an average couple of seasons. if it was a ploy to get him to raise his game then it worked, but at too higher price - alienation of the player.

a victim of circumstances which are to a large degree of his own making.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:09 am

Emerald Red wrote:
Dazzer wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Not Too Xabi wrote:Broadly speaking, we can no longer control a game.

Hardly surprising when more than half of your first choice 11 are all injured and you've to make do with bargain bucket squad fillers to take up the mantal. Lucas and Spearing for central pair anyone? Na, didn't think so either. At the minute, injuries and some bad luck have turned our season upside down.

Thats the point tho isn't it 2-3 players out and we can't control a game even at home in CL total sh.it 5 years now and we still are a 2 man team.

Hardly. You take 5 or 6 of your best players out of ANY team in the country, and suddenly you'll look a little ragged. Were we playing a Coca-Cola Championship side tonight? No. We were playing a well organised Lyon outfit in the top tier in Europe, and let's be honest, Gerrard and Torres have hardly been on top form this season either, even if Torres has scored a fair amount in the league, he's still been below his best.

Like I've said in the past few days, we have a excellent first 11, but the difference between us and the rest is that Chelsea, United and even City can afford to spend 20 million plus on their fringe players. We can't.

man utd - without rooney, they have berba. without scholes, they have hargreaves. without rio, they have vidic. without van der sar, they have foster. without nani, they have giggs. without anderson, they have carrick. and then comes along fletcher, macheda, fabio, rafael, wvalencia, park etc.

chelsea - without drogba, they have anelka. without terry, they have carvalho. without lampard, they have ballack. without essien, they have mikel. without cole, they have deco. without malouda, they have kalou. without bosingwa, they have ferreira. and then add in players like zhirkov, cech, alex, sturridge, etc.

i wont touch on arsenal as they have abundance of talent. and man city's top class. yeah go on and give the usual excuse of not having enough money bla bla bla oh its the owners etc etc etc...but ever considered if the money rafa spent on dross such as dossena and lucas had been spent on a single player of quality such as barry the depth would be as lackluster now?

by **Sir Roger** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:14 am

"he's a victim of circumstance. however, he has had a hand in creating those circumstances."

I think this just about sums it up. It has all the hallmarks of the chickens coming home to roost. I have said before that "focussed and single minded" could easily be replaced by "arrogant and stubborn". This is Rafas squad. Full stop. Unfortunately he is having no luck with injuries and beachballs. However his Achilles heel seems to be his relationship with the players (and now sadly the fans) where he needs their support and effort. Hopefully he will get it before its too late.

by **NANNY RED** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:26 am

Sir Roger wrote:. However his Achilles heel seems to be his relationship with the players (and now sadly the fans) where he needs their support and effort. Hopefully he will get it before its too late.

According to Javier the players are fully behind Rafa , an rightly so, An you say the fans , most of the fans at the game still support him and all,i do believe, You right about one thing though hopefully he gets support before its to late ,from them two by fecking off,

Victim :nod

by **heimdall** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:33 am

NANNY RED wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:. However his Achilles heel seems to be his relationship with the players (and now sadly the fans) where he needs their support and effort. Hopefully he will get it before its too late.

According to Javier the players are fully behind Rafa , an rightly so, An you say the fans , most of the fans at the game still support him and all,i do believe, You right about one thing though hopefully he gets support before its to late ,from them two by fecking off,

Victim

Did the owners force him to replace Bennayoun with Voronin last night. Do the owners force him to keep playing Lucas and Mascha in CM?
Nanny I hate the owners as much as anyone else but you can't blame everything on them whilst not finding any fault in Rafa, that is just ignorant and blinkered in my opinion.
Rafaf has more or less the saem first XI this term as last, with a better RB and yet we are playing much worse, how can that be solely the owners fault??

by **brentd4** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:34 am

RAFA'S CONSPRIACY

is it possible that rafa is doin this on purpose. no one cud possibly want to hav the squad of players rafa has got. he's sold some of r best players, in alonso arbeloa, crouch. brought in players of league1 quality with voronin, ngog, lucas, spent silly money on players to just sell for half that in a few months.
cud he be doin this out of spite because the board tried to bring klinsmann in behind his back. rafa is runnin the club down financially, also in terms of quality and also because he signed a contract recently so will get a big payout if sacked.

by **heimdall** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:37 am

brentd4 wrote:RAFA'S CONSPRIACY

is it possible that rafa is doin this on purpose. no one cud possibly want to hav the squad of players rafa has got. he's sold some of r best players, in alonso arbeloa, crouch. brought in players of league1 quality with voronin, ngog, lucas, spent silly money on players to just sell for half that in a few months.
cud he be doin this out of spite because the board tried to bring klinsmann in behind his back. rafa is runnin the club down financially, also in terms of quality and also because he signed a contract recently so will get a big payout if sacked.

Are we talking about the same Crouch who could hardly get a game under Rafa???

Anyway no I do not believe it is a conspiracy or that Rafa is doing this on purpose, as much as I dislike him as a manager at the moment I just can't imagine that, it would be career suicide and a dispicable thing to do.

by **andy_g** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:41 am

brentd4 wrote:RAFA'S CONSPRIACY

is it possible that rafa is doin this on purpose. no one cud possibly want to hav the squad of players rafa has got. he's sold some of r best players, in alonso arbeloa, crouch. brought in players of league1 quality with voronin, ngog, lucas, spent silly money on players to just sell for half that in a few months.
cud he be doin this out of spite because the board tried to bring klinsmann in behind his back. rafa is runnin the club down financially, also in terms of quality and also because he signed a contract recently so will get a big payout if sacked.

on a scale of 1 to 10 of bizarre first posts... thats a 48.

no, i don't think rafael benitez is trying to purposefully f'uck up the club for revenge.

by **made in UK** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:44 am

NANNY RED wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:. However his Achilles heel seems to be his relationship with the players (and now sadly the fans) where he needs their support and effort. Hopefully he will get it before its too late.

According to Javier the players are fully behind Rafa , an rightly so, An you say the fans , most of the fans at the game still support him and all,i do believe, You right about one thing though hopefully he gets support before its to late ,from them two by fecking off,

Victim

I heard on TV this morning that Fernando Torres took a 'slight' side swipe in his autobiography about Rafa's man-managment skills.

if anyone has read his autobiography and can confirm this it would support a suspicion that I've often pondered.

It is also worthy though to note that TV pundits can literally take words and twist them into something there not.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:50 am

andy_g wrote:he's a victim of circumstance. however, he has had a hand in creating those circumstances.

as many point out, our first choice starting eleven is mouthwatering; reina, johnson, carra, agger, aurelio, mascherano, aquilani, kuyt, reira, gerrard, torres. that team could - and probably should - beat anybody out there. the problem so far this season is that we haven't been able to play that team, or anything near it. benitez did the right thing in buying quality with aquilani and i think his calculated bet was about right that lucas and mascherano and gerrard would be able to hold the fort until the italian was ready. however, he wasn't to know that lucas just wouldn't step up, that mascherano would be day dreaming of barcelona instead of playing his game, that kuyt wouldn't be at the level he was at the end of last season, that agger would take longer to get back to fitness, and that reira, torres and gerrard would spend time early on out injured.

but then again, why over the last 5 years has he not built a squad capable of covering tough times? outside of that utterly delicious first 11 we have - apart from benayoun and possibly insua - dross backed up by dross with a bit of dross waiting in the wings. and drossena. in my opinion he has made a series of serious misjudgements with the purchase of squad players and a serious misjudgement espcecially with the lack of cover for torres. there is quite a few million quids worth of dross there as back up players so the 'he hasn't had money to spend' argument doesn't wash with me.

i know he has had trouble with the owners etc etc etc. but with the money he HAS been able to spend over the last 5 years we should have a much stronger squad and at least 2 decent strikers.

he also could have handled the alonso situation a lot better. its hard to tell if the summer he tried to flog him was a ploy to get his level back up again, or whether he really did want shut. if he wanted shut then he seriously misjudged alonso quality, despite him having had an average couple of seasons. if it was a ploy to get him to raise his game then it worked, but at too higher price - alienation of the player.

a victim of circumstances which are to a large degree of his own making.

Top post, Andy, and sums up my feelings nicely. Rafa's had to deal with a lot of issues since G & H took over but he's also had to deal with a lot of problems of his own making. In the past he's managed to pull the fat out of the fire in time but this particular bliiiiip has all the hallmarks of serious decline. At some point you have to wonder how in the bl.oody hell we let so many players go that have been replaced by patently inferior knock-offs. It's truly a sad state of affairs when you look wistfully at the likes of Bellamy, Riise and Cisse and wonder what if? Sabre's said in another thread--and I concur--that this is the time to raise serious concerns about Rafa because 4 successive losses for a club of our stature is simply not acceptable, no matter what the circumstances. I also take Southcoast Shankley's point (again from another thread) that things are starting to feel a lot like they did during the waning end of Houllier's tenure. Dark days indeed.

by **bunglemark2** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:35 pm

Good posts here, and a lot of sense in them.
This morning I couldn't help thinking how much more energy with purpose even somebody like Sissoko or Biscan would give instead of, for example, Lucas. Or how much more of a natural poacher with an instinct for goal Nemeth seemes to have from what I've seen in the ressies in the past year or two.
I don't think N'gog had an easy challenge last night, playing the lone striker with no service at all, or when it did come to him, it was at chest height. For all the talk of the fantastic run the ressies are having at the moment, and I ask this in ignorance more than anything, can we not slot one of those lads in ahead of, say, Insua who clearly has no pace and has been exposed - and will continue to be, now that it's plain as the nose on my face - time and time again in recent matches ?
It's been stated over and over again that Rafa has largely failed in the transfer market. What puzzles me especially is that allegedly we pipped the Mancs to Lucas - does anybody really think he wuld have played more than a handful of games for them ?? Or Dossena - over whose back did we climb to sign him ? Errrrrr, methinks NOBODY !
The point about Barry being preferred to Alonso last year: I suppose you could say that Rafa decided Alonso is going through a bad patch, he's not what's needed in that position right now, so I'll go and get me a proven player in that position....So use that analogy for Lucas right now. He is the ONLY person on the planet who insists on playing him week after week when the world and his mother is united in stating that he is not good enough, is ineffective etc. And I'm not Lucas-bashing 'cos it's the easiest thing to do, believe me....
Aurelio in midfield against Fiorentina - I mean, come on, give me a break....

Circumstance, my erse !! :angry:

by **Dazzer** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:45 pm

76 in 79 out and 5 players I would say are good plyers rest are inconsistent and play a good game 1 in 5 the fault is rafas he bought these player and that lies with the manager.Some might say before this year it was parrys fault ? well I say since parry left we have bought even worse.

by **Big Niall** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:23 pm

We only have 2 top class outfield players in SG and Torres and SG came through the LFC system, so of the current squad Torres is the only exceptional player Rafa has bought.

The amount of money wasted is astonishing.

by **Owzat** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:31 pm

bunglemark2 wrote:I don't think N'gog had an easy challenge last night, playing the lone striker with no service at all, or when it did come to him, it was at chest height.

I wondered what on earth was going on and how much fault you can find when a third (at best) choice striker is thrown in at the deep end, but I guess it was G&H's fault Rafa signed him and G&H's fault Rafa played that formation and G&H's fault Rafa played N'Gog and G&H's fault N'gog was not taken off despite struggling.

I just hope for those praying we get a new set of owners that the finances change, and Rafa actually spends better than he currently does. Because who knows what excuses will come out if G&H go, Rafa stays, is given £100m a summer to spend and we still don't win the league.

by **Dazzer** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:37 pm

Who knows what sh*t they come out with next to defend the undefendable. :Oo:

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Rafa. a victim of circumstance..... - Or has he fecked it up?

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