Liverpool FC Forum

by **JC_81** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:54 pm

With our league challenge hanging by the skimpiest of threads and our fight to get into the top four this season beginning to look a difficult enough task in itself, I have been trying to analyse where things have gone wrong this season. Four league defeats and one CL defeat in our 12 competitive games this season does not represent a blip, it represents something deeper than that.

Alonso's departure was has obviously hurt us, but not as much as the decision to replace him with a guy who was injured long term. Add to that the fact that Lucas has been really poor (not a scapegoat, this is simply fact), Mascherano has clearly been unsettled by summer transfer speculation/ personal issues/ Argentina's world cup plight and Gerrard has been poor possibly due to psychological scars caused by his court case. Then factor in the longer term issues such as Carragher's decreasing influence, consistency and physical shape, the lack of a consistently reliable partner for him, Aurelio's inability to stay fit, the inconsistency of our wide players and the absolute lack of cover for any injury to Torres, and you have a bit of a crisis imo.

When we were getting played off the park by Espanyol pre-season in addition to other lacklustre displays, the writing was on the wall that all was not well in the camp. Some chose to ignore this (Emerald was particularly vocal on the fact that pre-season didn't matter), while others showed particular concern. I am not for one instant saying that pre-season defines your season, or that the reason we have lost four league games is because we didn't play well pre-season, but I do think pre-season matters. It wasn't the results that worried me, it was the performances, and we have continued in the same form into the league campaign. It irritates me because some things were blatantly apparent pre-season, if not last season. Especially the fact that Lucas is a liability, the defence is on the wane and we seriously need another decent quality striker in the squad.

Something should have been done about it. Some will say Benitez didn't have the cash, but he spent 17 million on a right back and 20 million on an injured midfielder. Was that the best use of our limited resources? Time will tell but it's not looking like it so far is it? This season is reminding me of the season Houllier brought in Diouf/Diao/Cheyrou. Obviously Johnson and Probably Aquilani are of superior quality to those chumps, but it's the fact that we weren't far off winning the league and then instead of bringing in the players we needed and strengthening the right areas, we seem to have a worse squad than we had last year. It's really frustrating.

A win against United will lift all of us, god knows we need it. A defeat and I genuinely think 4th will be the best we can do. This is a massive week for Benitez. Defeat against Lyon and we're in serious risk of going out of the CL and defeat against United realistically knocks us out of the title race. He needs his big guns to start producing, Carra and Gerrard need to step it up especially. Benitez has been here before of course, and whatever you think of him, when he needs these results to go his way they usually do. We need 2 good performances this week and two wins, come on!!!!!!!!

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:25 pm

A typically sensible topic starter, which I just about agree every word of. as an addition rather than an argument, you could also make the case for this pre-season being more important than most for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, and I always say this, we knew our fixture list and everyone else's before the season started. Now it was fairly obvious that Spurs away in the first match, and Villa at Home in the third three match meant for a trickyish opening. Obviously if we were weren't fully revved up, those games were ones in which we could definately lose points.

The second reason goes back to last season. Last season, we came so so close to getting away from the chasing pack and winning it. While the Mancs were fecking about, Arsenal imploding, Chelsea changing Big Phil etc etc we got ourselves a very handy lead indeed. You could argue (I do argue) that we really ought to have won it from where we found ourselves, but in any case you can bet your erse that it scared the sh!t out of the Mancs in particular. Now some of have been saying for a while that they would move heaven and earth to make sure that didn't happen again. Equally, a quick glance at Chelsea's fixtures told you they had a great chance to get off to a flier, so the Mancs were always going to come out swinging.

This "you don't win the league in October" nonsense comes out every year. You don't win it of course, but you can certainly lose it. If the Mancs succeed in dancing on our grave on Saturday (as they'll be itching to do) we will prove that fact once again. Yes there's no doubt in my mind John that you have a valid point re pre-season.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:41 pm

I'm not so sure you could really argue that pre-season in itself was a problem, but perhaps the problems we've been seeing recently did manifest themselves in certain pre-season games - like the Espanyol fixture. There you saw our particular reliance on Torres/Gerrard in an attacking sense (no surprise) - the only players to create anything of any note, an insipid midfield, Carra getting exposed etc.. Similar criticisms were made after the Atletico Madrid performance. That suggested we might struggle - especially the AM game, IMO - but against that, the squad and indeed the (first) first-team hadn't trained together for very long because of later arrivals/injuries. To that extent it was a pretty limited insight - I certainly don't remember as many people screaming from rooftops that Lucas isn't anything like up to standard. In fact, quite a number suggested we give him a few games alongside Masch.

I don't think we're out it yet either, btw, but I do think we need to beat the Manc's in order to have a realistic chance. Four points would defo be retrievable over 28 games.

by **Sabre** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:01 am

For me preseason matters, preseason results not that much. I don't know who was vocal and who wasn't but I know that for me summer games isn't something that starts my alarms.

Summer games are those to decide things like San Jose having a place in Liverpool or not. Afterwards, we've seen how he doesn't seem to be good enough to be close to play a single minute in Athletic Bilbao, who are shít (Hello AlexG, I hope you're allowed back soon, no offence

).

So when you see configurations of the team with San Jose, Spearing, Babel after his new rap hit, etc, etc, it's hardly a surprise to see problems and dissapointing results.

However, as I say, preseason matters, not results. And I did hope that we'd notice for good not having to play the preliminary round, but we didn't.

Clearly the reasons of it have been touched by John. It's clear that Rafa thought that we could afford to substitute Alonso and wait for Aquilani. That's because, besides talking well about Lucas in the press, he probably had a good amount of faith in him. It's quite undeniable that bet has gone pear shaped and that we've paid for it. Quite undeniable aswell that was a Rafa mistake.

by **made in UK** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:10 am

Hi John,

I enjoyed reading you're post and it is something I have been thinking about to. During pre-season we were away in all our fixtures bar one A.Madrid. I think this pre-season we spent more time on an aeroplane than we did preparing for our season ahead, we travelled around Europe and then went off to Singapore and Thailand. We do usually travel a bit anyway but we usually base ourselves in Switzerland play a couple of matches there after playing teams like Crewe at home. This pre-season seemed more to do with the commercialisation of LFC than it did our fitness. Yes, we have been to Thailand before but I don't remember us also travelling Europe like we've done before. The squad was jetsetting around different countries and I don't think that much travelling is very good for preparation to be honest.

On top of that Aquillani was brought in to fill the gap Alonso left, why Rafa decided to buy the Italian with the money knowing he would be out for two to three months was a massive gamble. It hasn't paid off and it's cost us in all honesty, we don't even know whether the Italian will bed in yet so there could be another precarious three months ahead waiting for this to happen. Meanwhile Lucas has been given the responsibility (say no more) and Mascha has looked below par.

I think another striker and winger were needed too, but knowing or not whether Rafa had the money to spend is anyones guess. If I had to guess I'd say he didn't have the money to buy these players so in that respect he has one hand tied behind his back. But this ultimately leads you back to the signing of Aquillani who was injured long term when we signed him, why take that gamble when money is tight? The squad is thread bare and this was highlited against Sunderland, Rafa should be looking now to cast off the likes of Babel, Voronin, Lucas, Dossena, Degan and a few others and replace quantity with quality.

by **baldricks_cunning_plan** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:24 am

Lucas was our best player during pre-season by a country mile, he's been one of the few consistently good performers since the season started. No he hasn't stood out as being anything exceptional, but he's went about his job in a way Didi Hamann used to. Plain and simple but more than effective.

On pre-season itself, yes the results and performances were a bit dire but how come it's now we've had three bad results it's down to the pre-season. Didn't we have the same pre-season ahead of stuffing six past Hull, four past Burnley, three past West Ham and Bolton? Or was that a different pre-season schedule? Maybe it was and I didn't see it. Maybe we had a pre-season schedule for when we lose and one for when we win. I must look out for that come next year's.

We're not playing well at the moment, that is plain to see. But it's not down to pre-season because we've just come off the back of six straight wins. What seems to be the problem is not having the quality out wide, either on the wings or the full backs. The defence are struggling for form at the minute but when the ball constantly comes in due to the inability to close the ball down by the full backs, it's bound to cause a bit of havoc. When the centre halves are covering for Johnson because he's gone on yet another mazy run, it's bound to drag them out of position.

But that will get sorted in the very near future, in fact it'll get sorted Tuesday evening when we give Lyon a footballing lesson before wiping the floor with United at the weekend. Once those two wins are over and done with, every genuine Liverpool fan will be on a high. And we'll see our boys cruise through to the next round of the Carling Cup before a win over Fulham at Craven Cottage to top the month off.

by **made in UK** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:41 am

From day one at Spurs we never looked ready, infact we looked as though we were still in pre-season mode. We never hit the ground running.

Comparing Lucas and Hamman? They're on different footballing stratospheres altogether. One in his prime was one of THE best holding midfielders in Europe if not the world. He offered protection to the back four like a body guard would offer it to the queen, this season central midfield has been overan. Players like Cattermole chewed up Lucas for lunch, its not worth contemplating what the likes of Essein and co did. Hamman held his own against the powerhouses of the top four and European players, he could tackle, read the game very well and mop up without a fuss.

In Lucas's defence Mascha has not helped either this season and is a better ball winner than the Brazillian which means Lucas should really be looking to link the midfield and attack anyhow and not being compared to Hamman. Yet again he fails to do this, this is what Alonso was quite good at, he played the link man between defence and attack and that is something we've sorely missed.

If Lucas was our best player "by a country mile" during pre-season it may indicate how bad our preseason preperation was.

by **andy_g** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:00 am

yes we had the same pre-season before beating hull, stoke, bolton and west ham as we did before losing to sunderland, spurs, villa and chelsea. the losses are of course more relevant than the wins. look at the quality of our premiership wins - comparable with the likes of those we beat pre-season. now look at the losses - again comparable with the losses from pre-season.

the thing that was highlighted pre-season is that we are just not equipped, especially in midfield, to deal with teams who have quality and a certain commitment to come at us. seeing how others have waltzed through us at will is as painful as seeing us struggle to move and keep the ball when we have it. i don't think its down to lucas being useless either. i think he's a decent player, but seeing him trying to keep the midfield together pretty much on his own is 2 or 3 steps too far for him and is making him look much worse than he actually is. it also gives observers an easy excuse as to why we are losing.

in retrospect you have to wonder why the manager didn't address the issue he must have seen during those games, either by changing the way he uses gerrard in particular, or by using his summer cash slightly differently. even though i am getting increasingly bewildered and frustated by him i just don't see him as a 'rabbit caught in the headlights' type. either he stubbornly believes that the way he has us set up is good enough, or his true plans were scuppered by you know who.

by **Owzat** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:26 pm

In fairness, you could argue it isn't pre-season but simply a question of other factors. Was our start to last season all that much more impressive bar results? I count CL qualifiers in it, we drew 0-0 in Liege and only scraped through by virtue of a Kuyt winner. We drew away to villa in a poor display. This season we got off to an awful start, that perhaps inflicted more psychological damage than pre-season when we tend not to look great anyway

08/09 start

Standard Liege (a) D0-0
Sunderland (a) W1-0 - 83rd minute Torres winner
Middlesboro (h) W2-1 - 0-0 until the 70th when we went behind and only an 86th minute own goal and late Gerrard winner saved us
Standard Liege (h) W1-0 - 118th minute Kuyt winner
A Villa (a) D0-0
Man Utd (h) W2-1 - conceded early, equalised inside the half-hour but only won it in the 77th minute
Marseille (a) W2-1 - conceded in the 23rd, ahead by 32nd minute thanks to Gerrard brace
Stoke (h) D0-0 - disallowed goal considered, still not good

And a few games later we were winning two games 3-2 (Citeh away, Wigan home) thanks in part to red cards when we were 1-2 down in both games and the goals post red card coming in 73rd, 80th, 85th and 90th minutes. We didn't start playing flowing football on a regular basis until the title was an outside chance, if we had then perhaps January and February (P7 W2 D4 L1) would have been better and not costly like the home draws against Stoke, Fulham, West Ham and Hull

by **stmichael** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:36 pm

john craig wrote:This season is reminding me of the season Houllier brought in Diouf/Diao/Cheyrou.

Certainly the performance (or lack of it) on Saturday was very Houliier like towrds the end of his reign.

Last season we had the ability to go a goal down and still come back and win a game. We have managed that only once this season and on Saturday we could barely muster a decent effort on goal. If we were still playing now we wouldn't have scored.

At the start of last season we played poorly in several games but still managed to scrape a result from somewhere, either through luck or an individual piece of brilliance from someone. This season if we start poorly I start to fear the worst straight away.

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