Down but not out... - How are we placed?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby tubby » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:27 pm

Well fine then, so long as people don't expect us to seriously challange for the title. We will of course be in contention but that is as far as it goes unless we spend more. Maybe for a change these 2 can actually put in some of their own money instead of just loading it on the bank.
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Postby Owzat » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:31 pm

I was thinking about our losses and here's an interesting comparison. Last season we lost five games in all competitions, this season we've lost four already. It might only be 'early days', but by the end of October we might have lost as many games or more than we won all the way up to May last season

PREMIERSHIP

08/09 (2) Tottenham, Middlesboro
09/10 (3) Tottenham, Aston Villa, Chelsea

CHAMPIONS LEAGUE

08/09 (1) Chelsea
09/10 (1) Fiorentina

FA CUP

08/09 (1) Bitters
09/10 (0)

LEAGUE CUP

08/09 (1) Tottenham
09/10 (0)
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Postby NANNY RED » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:18 pm

bavlondon wrote:Fear not everyone. It seems our kind owners have given us a 12Mil warchest to splash on world class talent in the Jan window. All will be sorted then.

:laugh: Bav just think of the money we would have if 30 million was being put back into the club instead of going on interest payments  :;):
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Postby Emerald Red » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:09 pm

heimdall wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Fear not everyone. It seems our kind owners have given us a 12Mil warchest to splash on world class talent in the Jan window. All will be sorted then.

Well what the feck do you want then, for them to give Rafa £150 million and plunge the club into bankrupcy??

Do some of you guys still not understand that there is NO FECKING MONEY out there in the real world apart form if some daft Arab wants daddy to buy him a toy football club.

BTW totally agree with BM, it is blindingly obvious that Stevie has to play in the middle and in any case why change a system that works so well, surely you have to be the best manager in the world and a tactical genius to understand it or do you have to a distinctly average and inflexible manager who manages by numbers, i.e as soon as Mascha is fit he plays because that was decided pre-season and nothing going to change that master plan, especially not results.

I'm fed up with Rafa now, and apparently the owners are as well.

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Postby Reg » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:10 pm

I´ve had a change of attitude since the Chelsea game and if we lose to ManUre it will be confirmed.

The current team has progressed but stood still, we´re improved against the average teams like Villa, The Bitters and Wigan but we´re still not good enough against the Big 3.  Lucas, Reira, Babel, Ngog, arent good enough and we need to invest in at least 1 CB if not 2, knowing that Carra is over the hill.  Basically our inability to raise cash for either transfers or the new stadium is prolonging this situation.

More concerning is that football comes in 5 year cycles, Rafa pi$$ed around for the first 2 years buying average players, replacing GED´s misfits and seemingly not laying solid foundations until Kuyt, Torres, Reina and Masher joined Sami, Gerrard and Carra - thus started the 5 year cycle.

We´ve ground to a halt as we still need to find 3-4 top class players to replace those weaker Lucas and Reiras etc.. yet we´re now 2-3 years into the cycle.  Gerrard is not getting younger, Carra is slowing down and Torres runs a constant risk of being knobbled.

Unless Rafa can buy in those 3-4 top players in the next 12-18 months, we´ve missed the cycle and he´ll have to rebuild again. We have to get T&T out and give Rafa the funds. Maybe, if Rafa sees his cycle imploding, he might decide to leave before the owners do......

I´m wondering whether failing to qualify for CL this year with its lose of income would be a worthwhile scrafice to break the camels back and get these yankee basta´rds out of Anfield.
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Postby Tim LFC » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:30 pm

To be honest i think we can still win the league. For me i know we were going to have more losses this season partly due to other teams improving and partly due to win we were going for wins instead of draws. It doesn't matter if we lose 5 games but win 33. At the end of the day we found out wins secure the title not draws. Chelsea are looking the strongest. Arsenal are also looking really good but we can still be up there. Man U are going to be up there as well but many Man U fans are starting to see the gaps that Ronaldo has left thank god we replaced Alonso and even if he isn't as good as Alonso at least he's not a one dimensional winger. I do however think Aquilani will kick start our season regardless of whether he hits the ground running or not he should offer some morale and a boost to the team. Back onto Man U i don't think they're going to pose as much as a threat unless they get there :censored: sorted! Rooney can't drive a team on himself. From what i've seen of Man U fans there starting to feel more like a 1 half player team with Rooney and Giggs driving them forward. Whilst we apparently have 2 let's hope Aquilani makes that 3. We can still win the league if our team performs, the wingers need to improve right now i'm prefering Babel to Kuyt because Babel has done more right now. Hopefully once our team is settled we'll be in full swing. With Gerrard and Torres getting balls lofted by Aquilani. Johnson sand Kuyt causing havok down the wing, we still no johnsons got a lot more to give and Benayoun switfly and silkily skimming players on the wing. Then we can finally say our team can win the league.  :)
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Postby NANNY RED » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:46 pm

I read this post on another forum OTK ,It was posted by a lad Flagpole Corner , TOP TOP POST IMO

There are two choices professional footballers face when they begin to wind down their playing careers. One is to put their reputations on the line, put their experience to use and take the plunge into the pressure cooker environment of management. The other more tepid and undoubtedly easier option is to sit on a couch or radio booth once a week and tell the World how those who made the difficult choice at the end of their careers should be doing it.

Great footballing brains of our time like Stan Collymore, Paul Merson, Rodney Marsh, Charlie Nicholas and Andy Gray can rest easy knowing that, unlike former teammates who actually took the plunge into management, they are never, ever wrong. Add to them the list of journalists forcing their unqualified footballing views on the World, and you’d think the British media would have limited sway. But once they’ve managed to grab their prey, it’s very difficult for that prey to wriggle free and fight another day. For a bunch of has-beens and never-weres, they hold significant sway on English football, far more than their footballing careers and medal deserve.

Avram Grant was caught by the predators early on in his Chelsea career, Martin Jol couldn’t escape their clutches at White Hart Lane despite supporter backing, and even Arsene Wenger has had a few lucky escapes in recent times. It’s not a Liverpool thing. They’re all not against us and us alone.

After a few previous escapes, the pack have got our own Rafael Benitez in their midst, and are sensing blood.
Andy Gray – a man who passed up the chance to take up the reins at the club he loves to continue his cushy number in the Sky Sports studio – claimed Benitez was “managing by numbers” and was failing to get the best out of Steven Gerrard. Merson, Nicholas, Collymore et al dismissed zonal marking, a system that has its flaws but was the foundation of the strongest defensive record in the Premiership in the past half a decade. Benitez should be pandering to his senior players and not justifiably criticising them said one broadsheet this week, whilst wildly exaggerated transfer expenditure has been used as evidence of Gillett and Hicks being justified in their lack of respect for the manager.

Surely after a disappointing day such as Sunday, the first thought of a Red is to hit the pubs, talk to other Reds and stick to facts? For many it seems the lure of the keyboard, blog, phone-in and internet message board is stronger than the lure of a cold one.

That is not to say the manager should be blindly backed, and beyond criticism. Last season he was too cautious when there was no real need to be. He picked players too often out of form, and this season has relied heavily of an isolated Fernando Torres to produce moments of magic. Constructive criticism that every manager should face from the paying public, but doesn’t mean that we should heed the advice of so-called pundits and experts and look to some mystical saviour who will come in and win every game at a canter.

Four points behind United, six points behind Chelsea, with 90 points to play for, is by no means a crisis. Especially when the squad we have, bar the loss of Xabi Alonso of which we have yet to see his replacement, has not been hugely changed from the side that squatted everything that crossed its path between February and May last year.

Two owners who are more concerned with siphoning funds that should be going towards transfer fees to make the changes necessary to make those final steps towards the league are playing on the belief that fans will be swayed by themselves and blame Benitez for any perceived failure. They believe that they can divert criticism of their own shambolic ownership by pointing at others like five year olds crying “it wasn’t me, it’s him”. With the help of the media on a quiet day, expect an onslaught of criticism towards Benitez whilst the internationals bore us rigid for the next fortnight.

It would be extremely naive to suggest that every single Liverpool fan is behind Benitez. There are some who believe he has taken us as far as he can, some who believe that Europe is his forte and the domestic prize will elude him time and again, and some who didn’t like him from the start. That is their choice, a view I don't agree with, but their view nonetheless.

But a manager’s fate or reputation amongst fans should be decided by fans. When, like Gerard Houllier in 2003/04, a sizable majority of fans have seen enough and want change, then there should be change – and from the stands to the pubs to the forums, it’s undeniably clear that this is not the case.

So, put down the keyboard, leave your 15 seconds of fame talking to Ray Parlour and take the words of failures receiving cheques for being controversial with a pinch of salt and don’t let others tell us what we think of our manager. We’ll decide when the time is right for change in the dugout, and that time for the majority certainly isn’t now.

It's the least a man who has acted with nothing but dignity in the face of cowboys in the boardroom and given us some pretty special nights along the way deserves.
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Postby Tim LFC » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:53 pm

Yeah Nanny that post was sublime and hit the points right on the head! I'm quite surprised Gillet hasn't been attacked in public! Lords know if i would of seen the guy he wouldn't be here, he'd be six feet under! :p
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Postby Scottbot » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:56 pm

Good post that :cool:
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Postby bigmick » Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:10 pm

It's an excellent post nan and a really good read. Funnily enough there are huge swathes of it which I agree with. I very much rail against this notion that because a bloke has played football at the highest level it necessarily follows as an absolute certainty that he knows more about the nuances of football than me. Some do obviously, but not all. Similarly, I don't accept for a second that because Rafa is the manager of Liverpool football club and I sell dildo's for a living, it naturally follows that if we disagree on something he is always right. It is an absolutely ridiculous notion, and I've never bought into it. When I said Fernando Morientes woulod never ever cut it in English football 18 months before we sold him, I was right. When i said we rotated too much, I was right. When I said we ought to buy Robert Earnshaw, or that Yossi Benayoun was nowhere near good enough, I was wrong.

Nobody ever is right about everything, and football is no different. The managers job is to be right about most things and get them right quickly. Be right about most signings, be right about most selections, and when he's wrong realise it quickly.

So the bits of the post I disagree with? Well it's the insinuation that people who have a problem with the manager listen slavishly to oiks like Paul Merson and Stan Collymore. I've met Paul Merson and he's a nice lad but an idiot. He was a very talented footballer but so was Paul Gascoigne, it hardly qualifies him to form my opinion on football. No I don't agree with that part at all. Not only do I not listen to Paul Merson and Stan Collymore, I couldn't even if I wanted to. My criticism's are entirely my own work, and I say it because I believe it not because some numpty has fed me a line.

The other bit I disagree with is the idea that 6 points behind Chelsea and 4 behind Man Utd isn't a crisis. It is if you want to win the league. We might be still in it, but only just, by the skin of our fingernails. It's only not a crisis if you don't want to win the league. Concede any more points to those two and we start concentrating on the cups.
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Postby Reg » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:32 am

Someone's trying to compete with Mick in the Long Post competition, I didnt make it past para 3. ???
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Postby account deleted by request » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:29 pm

There are two choices professional footballers face when they begin to wind down their playing careers. One is to put their reputations on the line, put their experience to use and take the plunge into the pressure cooker environment of management. The other more tepid and undoubtedly easier option is to sit on a couch or radio booth once a week and tell the World how those who made the difficult choice at the end of their careers should be doing it.

Great footballing brains of our time like Stan Collymore, Paul Merson, Rodney Marsh, Charlie Nicholas and Andy Gray can rest easy knowing that, unlike former teammates who actually took the plunge into management, they are never, ever wrong. Add to them the list of journalists forcing their unqualified footballing views on the World, and you’d think the British media would have limited sway. But once they’ve managed to grab their prey, it’s very difficult for that prey to wriggle free and fight another day. For a bunch of has-beens and never-weres, they hold significant sway on English football, far more than their footballing careers and medal deserve.

Avram Grant was caught by the predators early on in his Chelsea career, Martin Jol couldn’t escape their clutches at White Hart Lane despite supporter backing, and even Arsene Wenger has had a few lucky escapes in recent times. It’s not a Liverpool thing. They’re all not against us and us alone.

After a few previous escapes, the pack have got our own Rafael Benitez in their midst, and are sensing blood.
Andy Gray – a man who passed up the chance to take up the reins at the club he loves to continue his cushy number in the Sky Sports studio – claimed Benitez was “managing by numbers” and was failing to get the best out of Steven Gerrard. Merson, Nicholas, Collymore et al dismissed zonal marking, a system that has its flaws but was the foundation of the strongest defensive record in the Premiership in the past half a decade. Benitez should be pandering to his senior players and not justifiably criticising them said one broadsheet this week, whilst wildly exaggerated transfer expenditure has been used as evidence of Gillett and Hicks being justified in their lack of respect for the manager.

Surely after a disappointing day such as Sunday, the first thought of a Red is to hit the pubs, talk to other Reds and stick to facts? For many it seems the lure of the keyboard, blog, phone-in and internet message board is stronger than the lure of a cold one.

That is not to say the manager should be blindly backed, and beyond criticism. Last season he was too cautious when there was no real need to be. He picked players too often out of form, and this season has relied heavily of an isolated Fernando Torres to produce moments of magic. Constructive criticism that every manager should face from the paying public, but doesn’t mean that we should heed the advice of so-called pundits and experts and look to some mystical saviour who will come in and win every game at a canter.

Four points behind United, six points behind Chelsea, with 90 points to play for, is by no means a crisis. Especially when the squad we have, bar the loss of Xabi Alonso of which we have yet to see his replacement, has not been hugely changed from the side that squatted everything that crossed its path between February and May last year.

Two owners who are more concerned with siphoning funds that should be going towards transfer fees to make the changes necessary to make those final steps towards the league are playing on the belief that fans will be swayed by themselves and blame Benitez for any perceived failure. They believe that they can divert criticism of their own shambolic ownership by pointing at others like five year olds crying “it wasn’t me, it’s him”. With the help of the media on a quiet day, expect an onslaught of criticism towards Benitez whilst the internationals bore us rigid for the next fortnight.

It would be extremely naive to suggest that every single Liverpool fan is behind Benitez. There are some who believe he has taken us as far as he can, some who believe that Europe is his forte and the domestic prize will elude him time and again, and some who didn’t like him from the start. That is their choice, a view I don't agree with, but their view nonetheless.

But a manager’s fate or reputation amongst fans should be decided by fans. When, like Gerard Houllier in 2003/04, a sizable majority of fans have seen enough and want change, then there should be change – and from the stands to the pubs to the forums, it’s undeniably clear that this is not the case.

So, put down the keyboard, leave your 15 seconds of fame talking to Ray Parlour and take the words of failures receiving cheques for being controversial with a pinch of salt and don’t let others tell us what we think of our manager. We’ll decide when the time is right for change in the dugout, and that time for the majority certainly isn’t now.

It's the least a man who has acted with nothing but dignity in the face of cowboys in the boardroom and given us some pretty special nights along the way deserves.





That is a top post.

This post highlights two very different things. The first being that the general demographic of Liverpool supporters tend to jump on the old 'bash Rafa' bandwagon because Paul Merson says so. I think this notion does ring true with many footballing fans, whether they be Accrington Stanley, West Brom or LFC. Once a "pundit" sinks his teeth in and has a pop at the manager and club. That is enough for some fans to follow suit (apart from Mick    .

But tha does not just mean Mick, without blowing my own trumpet also. My opinions were made irrelevant of what sky pundits and journos thought. I live in Aus as an "Antipodeon" and I am not exposed to this sh.ite that Merson and co spout.

The second thing this post highlights is the fact it was ripped and quoted from another forum. It seems many decent posts on here are few and far between on here these days. This has resulted because a couple of mods would rather 'flex their muscles" on here in the way of a power trip. Than actually contribute quality football discussion. They'd sooner feel better about themselves if they hearded and censorerd what people said, rather than talk about football. I'm sure they know who they are, one who plays victim and twists words in his defence. Once the 'defendent' (me) has been banned and is unablke to put his point across. And the other, well what can you say... A Maple leaf who does not belong.

Anyway, the fact the somebody brought this post onto the forum says it all.   


Posted on behalf of a mate

Any views expressed are those of my mate, and do not necessarily reflect the views or policies of s@int
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Postby Effes » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:23 pm

I thought that post was put up acknowledging the fact it was taken from another forum ???
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Postby account deleted by request » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:28 pm

Effes wrote:I thought that post was put up acknowledging the fact it was taken from another forum ???

I think that was his point mate, that there are few good posts being posted by us. :D
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Postby supersub » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:30 pm

so what was the point of the add on
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THERE'S A GREAT BIG BEAUTIFUL TOMORROW AND TOMORROW IS JUST A DREAM AWAY.
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