Liverpool FC Forum

by **aCe'** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:01 pm

s@int wrote:'Cultural thingy' or not a manager in England is entitled to make a substitution whenever he feels the need to. Restricting a manager to make a substitution between 65-70 mins in order to gauge his temprament by the wider footballing society is nonsical.

It is therefore reasonable to assume limiting your opportunities to stay in touch with your 'cultural thing' serves only as a hinderance to the team your managing.

Posted on behalf of a friend

haha... good stuff

If things arent going our way, sometimes the only way to try and retain the upper hand is by changing personnel around a little... doesnt matter if its at 30min or 70mins, when a change is needed, a change should be done... Personally, id rather see us making changes at 45mins if things arent going our way rather than at 65mins... the half time team talk could be used to explain to the incoming player on how he should be playing etc etc...

The problem is... his subs take too long, and the players dont have enough time to make a difference...

by **Sir Roger** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:07 pm

aCe' wrote:
s@int wrote:'Cultural thingy' or not a manager in England is entitled to make a substitution whenever he feels the need to. Restricting a manager to make a substitution between 65-70 mins in order to gauge his temprament by the wider footballing society is nonsical.

It is therefore reasonable to assume limiting your opportunities to stay in touch with your 'cultural thing' serves only as a hinderance to the team your managing.

Posted on behalf of a friend

haha... good stuff

If things arent going our way, sometimes the only way to try and retain the upper hand is by changing personnel around a little... doesnt matter if its at 30min or 70mins, when a change is needed, a change should be done... Personally, id rather see us making changes at 45mins if things arent going our way rather than at 65mins... the half time team talk could be used to explain to the incoming player on how he should be playing etc etc...

The problem is... his subs take too long, and the players dont have enough time to make a difference...

Has anyone got statistics regarding subs
i.e. changed at half time: effect on match result, changed at 50 minutes, 60 minutes etc?
Just to see if the subs made a difference depending on when they were made.
I can think of one match where substitutions were made at half time and we won...

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:21 pm

These are the times that Rafa's subs have come on AND SCORED . EDIT Times are for the goal rather than when they came on

'84 Milan Baros 15.09.2004 2 - 0 Monaco Europe
'79 Xabi Alonso 16.10.2004 4 - 2 Fulham League
'90 Igor Biscan 16.10.2004 4 - 2 Fulham League
'70 Milan Baros 26.10.2004 3 - 0 Millwall LC
'90 Milan Baros 26.10.2004 3 - 0 Millwall LC
'47 Florent S.-Pongolle 08.12.2004 3 - 1 Olympiacos Europe '80 Neil Mellor 08.12.2004 3 - 1 Olympiacos Europe
'89 Luis Garcia 26.12.2004 5 - 0 WBA League
'113 Antonio Nunez 27.02.2005 2 - 3 Chelsea LC
'56 Vladimir Smicer 25.05.2005 3 - 3 AC Milan Europe
'85 Steven Gerrard 19.07.2005 3 - 0 TNS Europe
'86 Steven Gerrard 19.07.2005 3 - 0 TNS Europe
'77 Steven Gerrard 02.08.2005 2 - 0 FBK Kaunas Europe
'86 Djibril Cissé 02.08.2005 2 - 0 FBK Kaunas Europe
'82 Djibril Cissé 26.08.2005 3 - 1 CSKA Moscow Europe
'103 Djibril Cissé 26.08.2005 3 - 1 CSKA Moscow Europe
'68 Luis Garcia 24.09.2005 2 - 2 Birmingham League
'85 Djibril Cissé 24.09.2005 2 - 2 Birmingham League
'82 Boudewijn Zenden 29.10.2005 2 - 0 West Ham League
'89 Djibril Cissé 01.11.2005 3 - 0 Anderlecht Europe
'79 Fernando Morientes 19.11.2005 3 - 0 Portsmouth League
'82 Luis Garcia 02.01.2006 2 - 2 Bolton League
'61 Florent S.-Pongolle 07.01.2006 5 - 3 Luton FA
'73 Florent S.-Pongolle 07.01.2006 5 - 3 Luton FA
'87 Luis Garcia 14.02.2006 1 - 0 Arsenal League
'89 Peter Crouch 15.03.2006 5 - 1 Fulham League
'90 Stephen Warnock 15.03.2006 5 - 1 Fulham League
'59 Fernando Morientes 21.03.2006 7 - 0 Birmingham FA
'89 Djibril Cissé 21.03.2006 7 - 0 Birmingham FA
'83 Peter Crouch 07.05.2006 3 - 1 Portsmouth League
'88 Djibril Cissé 07.05.2006 3 - 1 Portsmouth League
'88 Mark Gonzalez 09.08.2006 2 - 1 Maccabi Haifa Europe
'90 Mark Gonzalez 09.12.2006 4 - 0 Fulham League
'85 Dirk Kuyt 07.04.2007 2 - 1 Reading League
'62 Xabi Alonso 13.05.2007 2 - 2 Charlton League
'90 Harry Kewell 13.05.2007 2 - 2 Charlton League
'76 Andriy Voronin 01.09.2007 6 - 0 Derby League
'75 Yossi Benayoun 29.09.2007 1 - 0 Wigan Ath. League
'78 Ryan Babel 06.11.2007 8 - 0 Besiktas Europe
'81 Ryan Babel 06.11.2007 8 - 0 Besiktas Europe
'81 Fernando Torres 10.11.2007 2 - 0 Fulham League
'66 Ryan Babel 24.11.2007 3 - 0 Newcastle League
'87 Peter Crouch 28.11.2007 4 - 1 Porto Europe
'85 Ryan Babel 02.12.2007 4 - 0 Bolton League
'90 Ryan Babel 11.12.2007 4 - 0 Marseille Europe
'88 Peter Crouch 21.01.2008 2 - 2 Aston Villa League
'90 Ryan Babel 08.04.2008 4 - 2 Arsenal Europe
'90 Andriy Voronin 13.04.2008 3 - 1 Blackburn League
'117 Ryan Babel 30.04.2008 2 - 3 Chelsea Europe
'77 Ryan Babel 13.09.2008 2 - 1 Man Utd League
'76 Xabi Alonso 28.12.2008 5 - 1 Newcastle League
'90 Fernando Torres 03.01.2009 2 - 0 Preston FA
'84 Dirk Kuyt 07.02.2009 3 - 2 Portsmouth League
'90 Fernando Torres 07.02.2009 3 - 2 Portsmouth League
'89 Andrea Dossena 10.03.2009 4 - 0 Real Madrid Europe
'90 Andrea Dossena 14.03.2009 4 - 1 Man Utd League
'90 Yossi Benayoun 04.04.2009 1 - 0 Fulham League
'90 David N'gog 11.04.2009 4 - 0 Blackburn League
'87 Lucas Leiva 03.05.2009 3 - 0 Newcastle League
'84 Ryan Babel 09.05.2009 3 - 0 West Ham League
'90 David N'gog 19.08.2009 4 - 0 Stoke League
'88 Ryan Babel 26.09.2009 6 - 1 Hull City League
'90 Ryan Babel 26.09.2009 6 - 1 Hull City League

by **Dazzer** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:31 pm

Those stats prove to me what I think that Rafa is most good at subs when team is ahead but if a little of mark when it comes to making subs to bring us back from the brink like on tuesday(not counting CL final of course

).

by **Sir Roger** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:09 pm

Dazzer wrote:Those stats prove to me what I think that Rafa is most good at subs when team is ahead but if a little of mark when it comes to making subs to bring us back from the brink like on tuesday(not counting CL final of course ).

Good point
Anyone got stats regarding this?

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:13 pm

well of course the stats are going to show that, we are a winning club and more often than not we are going to be in a situation where we are winning and not on the brink

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:18 pm

a more proper analysis of how Rafa does with subs when we are "on the brink" would be to look at every game in which we went into half time tied or losing. how many times did we score before any subs, how many times did we score after, how many times did we not score at all? When we didn't score, how long did it take for Rafa to make changes?

THEN, do similar stats for United, Arsenal, and Chelsea over the same time period.

by **Sir Roger** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:20 pm

JoeTerp wrote:a more proper analysis of how Rafa does with subs when we are "on the brink" would be to look at every game in which we went into half time tied or losing. how many times did we score before any subs, how many times did we score after, how many times did we not score at all? When we didn't score, how long did it take for Rafa to make changes?

THEN, do similar stats for United, Arsenal, and Chelsea over the same time period.

Yes
I have the feeling that when we need the sub to change a game he is brought on too late.
Or is not effective
I could be wrong...

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:23 pm

and sometimes I FEEL like its a Friday, but its only a Thursday. I still have to come in the next day.

by **Sir Roger** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:31 pm

JoeTerp wrote:and sometimes I FEEL like its a Friday, but its only a Thursday. I still have to come in the next day.

Are you on about Crunchies?

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:36 pm

I've just read through and I'll have a think about a response on my way to work this morning. As it is, S@ints friend makes a very good point and in some ways it goes back to respecting the football culture where you have gone as opposed to where you have come from. With the greatest respect, if mass rotation from game one or subs only after minute 65 works in Spain, isn't entirely relevent to England.

As we seem to be finally grasping after five seasons, while draws are a good result in Spain they aren't really in England so there are obviously huge cultural differences. The answer surely is to come in and embrace those differences, NOT to try and impose something which has worked elsewhere without even considering something different.

I was amazed by the "but Mourinho likes to blame the players" comment. It is the opposite to the way I see it, and given the debacle in midweek for which Rafa has seemingly not put his hand up even 1%, I couldn't understand it. One thing Mourinho did do very effectively on arrival was to embrace English football and the way it is played. People scoff at the Robert Huth up top for the last five minutes, but bunging your big centre halves up top in desperation and sticking it in the mixer is as English as stilton and as old as the Doomsday book. Under an English interpretation of the rules (where you are actually allowed to compete for the ball) it's very effective too on occasions. Peoplke forget that if Eidur Gudjohnson hadn't missed from a yard as a direct result of such tactics, we wouldn't have won the Champions League.

Essentially, dogma never wins. Ancellotti has come in and played the diamond in a slightly different way to the norm in England (I think Venables had a go unsuccessfully at a similar system) and so far it's worked which is great. If it continues to work, he should stick with it. If it doesn't, he should adapt it for certain games, I'm sure he will. What you don't do though, is stick to a mantra regardless of what you can see before your eyes. How about subs between 60 and 70 minutes are what I normally do, but in extreme circumstances I will make a move much earlier than that? There, it's not a huge change and it doesn't hurt too much surely.

by **Sabre** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:51 pm

How about subs between 60 and 70 minutes are what I normally do, but in extreme circumstances I will make a move much earlier than that?

Exactly. In *extreme* circumstances. But I opened the thread because out of 10 games, in 9 I can read that the substitutions should come earlier. That's a cultural clash for me, I cannot understand why, and I wanted to hear the arguments that are behind the requests of those substitutions. For the sake of embracing english football,knowing where you come from and all that.

What I have done here is an interpretation of why Rafa does things, I never said it was a dogma. Rather, it's a rule for orientation, the things you'll see more often and you do them because it makes sense. Just like it makes sense to sub a player that has a yellow, and it's normal to see that, it doesn't mean that you won't see players that have a yellow and are not subbed. Never said it was an unbreakable rule, just in case. When I joined this forum I asked why in England the teams do not protect often the first post in corners, while in Spain we do, and I received some interesting opinions. That was a bit the spirit of the thread.

As for the Mourinho likes to blame the players comment, perhaps we can discuss it in the other thread in order not to drift the topic from now on, but I do remember Mourinho having goes at the football of some of their players.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:18 pm

Sabre wrote:Exactly. In *extreme* circumstances. But I opened the thread because out of 10 games, in 9 I can read that the substitutions should come earlier.

Well people over react is the first thing Sabes as we all know. The match threads actrually during a match get swamped by people over reacting in the heat of the moment, "OMG Gerrard should be shot, how did he miss that FFS!!!" and the like. It isn't until somebody points out that he was 35 yards out and you can't be expected to score from there EVERY time that people see reason.

Similarly, you see in the immediate aftermath of defeats people talking about Skrtel being so bad that "he shouldn't wear the shirt again". It's an overreaction, as is "FFS take Kuyt off now" after ten minutes when an atempt to control it turns into a 30 yard through ball.

Taking all that aside though and being sensible for a second, there definately are occasions where fairly early on it's clear the set up isn't working, or something the opposition is doing requires you to rethink. I didn't need to see Peter Crouch on the left wing for too long for instance (if at all in truth) to know it wasn't working, and that could have been changed as soon as Rafa was ready. Similarly, the midweek debacle should have been addressed at half time at the very latest for two reasons. Number one was that the set up clearly didn't work, and number two was that we needed to score two goals. To give yourself the best chance of doing that, one of the midfielders (or Aurelio I don't mind which) needed to make way for Gerrard, and we needed to put another offensive player on.

Now I know people will say "but we improved second half" but having watched the highlights, they were very happy to let us come onto them, and the set up didn't work any better from where I was sitting.

I can't get away I'm afraid from the feeling that changing it early would be tantamount to admitting a mistake has been made in selection, something we are loathe to do however obvious it is. The biggest irony of all of course is that on the occasion when we had to make changes due to injuries, we managed through an incredible chain of events and a Steven Gerrard wondershow to win the Champions League final. Perhaps we should remember that when we're sitting on our hands.

by **heimdall** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:37 pm

Sabre wrote:
How about subs between 60 and 70 minutes are what I normally do, but in extreme circumstances I will make a move much earlier than that?

Exactly. In *extreme* circumstances. But I opened the thread because out of 10 games, in 9 I can read that the substitutions should come earlier. That's a cultural clash for me, I cannot understand why, and I wanted to hear the arguments that are behind the requests of those substitutions. For the sake of embracing english football,knowing where you come from and all that.

What I have done here is an interpretation of why Rafa does things, I never said it was a dogma. Rather, it's a rule for orientation, the things you'll see more often and you do them because it makes sense. Just like it makes sense to sub a player that has a yellow, and it's normal to see that, it doesn't mean that you won't see players that have a yellow and are not subbed. Never said it was an unbreakable rule, just in case. When I joined this forum I asked why in England the teams do not protect often the first post in corners, while in Spain we do, and I received some interesting opinions. That was a bit the spirit of the thread.

As for the Mourinho likes to blame the players comment, perhaps we can discuss it in the other thread in order not to drift the topic from now on, but I do remember Mourinho having goes at the football of some of their players.

Do you not consider being 2-0 down at half time as an extreme situation then Sabre?

BTW Rafa has been having a go at quite a few players this season, even Stevie and Torres, so I'm not quite sure what the dig at Maureen is all about?

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:59 pm

My own view is that by restricting substitutions to 60mins and over it gives the opposition an advantage as knowledge is power and if you know when opposition changes are going to be made you can act or react accordingly.

Secondly it is obviously a great advantage to make important changes at half time as you can explain to the players just how the change is going to affect each player, and rather than the sub spending 5mins running round explaining to the rest of the team just what role he will be playing and how their role may have changed, it can all be sorted in the dressing room.

My own criticism is that not only does he often wait too long before making his subs when we are chasing the game, but that often he changes like for like rather than making a more bold statement by exchanging a defender for a midfield player or throwing on an extra striker. Admittedly with the quality of Liverpools bench this hasn't been as great a problem this season!

I do think that when things are obviously not working an early change would be welcome and might make the difference between getting a result and coming away with nothing.

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Substitutions before minute 65 - A cultural clash thingy

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