Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:57 pm

The topic of the football thread is simple. I notice from multiple comments over the time, that many fellow reds demand substitutions before min 65.

This is quite unusual in my country, so I wanted you to develop the reasons of why you dislike so much that Rafa aspect, who, that's true, follows the classic (at least here) rule of under normal circunstances, make the first sub between min 65 and 70.

That is, in Rafa's world, a substitution before half time means either injury, or total disaster in the pitch with known culprits. A substitution at half time is a clear message of "something is going definitely wrong".

I don't think we'll see many times Rafa subbing before min 65. In some games like Fiore first half, I'm sure he has been tempted, but doing so would imply to doom the player from the coach's perspective.

The reason to make subs beyond 65 if you have a game controlled, is based on the principle that beyond that minute tiredness is more evident in the opposition, the collective pressing decreases, and players who make a difference can make a bigger difference when they're fresh in those precise minuts. Kind of "first get weary the opposition, then finnish them off".

This might be perfect bóllocks in another football culture, and that's why I want your views in the thread, to explain me why. Why would you make substitutions before min 65?

by **maguskwt** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:02 pm

I agree with the reasons...

however... I also feel that certain players if they are really playing badly deserved to be substituted before 65 mins... just to give them a kick up their backsides...

rafa is not afraid to drop a player from the lineup... so why not substitute a player before 65 mins as well?

by **Sabre** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:08 pm

maguskwt wrote:I agree with the reasons...

however... I also feel that certain players if they are really playing badly deserved to be substituted before 65 mins... just to give them a kick up their backsides...

rafa is not afraid to drop a player from the lineup... so why not substitute a player before 65 mins as well?

In half time some strenght is recovered. And from that point, the tiredness appear quicker compared to when the game starts.

If you make a sub in min 55, you'd rather do it in half time.

So if we have subs before min 65, it means either Rafa is pointing out a culprit in a game, or him admitting he's wrong.

Since Rafa is a stubborn guy, he'll admit few times he got the selection wrong. And as you know he's not keen on giving stick to the weaker players, he's quite keen on praising the weakest links. I think that two factors explains why Rafa subs rarely before min 65.

It's true Magus, that a few times, I have missed some subs before we did them, as the game really was bad. But I read that demand of substitutions much more often than those few occassions, and most of the time in a game you have controlled, making subs before min 65 doesn't maximise the strenghts of your players.

by **stmichael** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:08 pm

Good topic starter and something that I've discussed a number of times when watching us.

I think the fact that we dominate the possession and chances in most of our games is better evidence to me that Rafa's substitutions and changes are usually bang on, especially as we are practically always dominant in the final spell of games and score a lot of goals in that period. I think I also read a stat recently that Rafa has introduced more goal scoring substitutes than any other premier league manager in his time here. Whether that's true or not I'm not sure.

I don't buy into this whole myth that throwing loads of strikers on when chasing games is some kind of genius tactical decision aka Ferguson. I personally see that as basically just a pathetic cop out which does very little to change the game but one which insulates you from criticism. For example, everyone remembers that game at Goodison a few years ago when at 1-1 and pushing for a winner, he took Gerrard off and put Lucas on because Gerrard was tearing about like a lunatic. Lucas ends up setting up the winner even though nobody other than the manager would have made that substitution.

He should have changed it at half time on Tuesday though as it clearly wasn't working and despite dominating possession 2nd half, that was largely due to Fiorientina dropping off. He's also restricted by the fact that we no longer have a route one option upfront.

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:26 pm

interesting Sabre. One thing I might say on it is that this philosophy didn't seem to get on the boat with Cortes or Pizzaro. I see first half and half time subs somewhat frequently (relatively speaking) when watching Argentine or Uruguayan footy

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:30 pm

I think one reason not to make changes at half time is that you are making adjustments at halftime and so is the other manager, you might gain the upperhand with slighter, tactical adjustments without having to use up a sub, and the only way to judge that is to let the 2nd half breath a bit.

by **Sabre** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:39 pm

JoeTerp wrote:interesting Sabre. One thing I might say on it is that this philosophy didn't seem to get on the boat with Cortes or Pizzaro. I see first half and half time subs somewhat frequently (relatively speaking) when watching Argentine or Uruguayan footy

In Spain we also have temperamental managers. And in South America the blood is hot and the patience is thin. I think what you say is true, and the reason is that they're more emotional.

If you look at the Spanish league though, and I know you do, you'll see how a non temperamental manager, like say, the Valencia current manager Emery, or Pellegrini in Real Madrid, rarely does subs before 65. I think that there's a relationship of how temperamental or vulnerable to pressure is a manager and doing that kind of drastic substitutions.

by **stmichael** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:41 pm

be interesting if maureen manages in spain in the future then.

at chelsea i remember him making a double change after 25 minutes in one game.

by **Sabre** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:43 pm

stmichael wrote:be interesting if maureen manages in spain in the future then.

at chelsea i remember him making a double change after 25 minutes in one game.

Yep I have seen him doing subs at first half. No surprise, he's more temperamental than Rafa, and he likes blaming the players more than Rafa. We all know that. Don't we. (

)

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:36 pm

Sabre wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:interesting Sabre. One thing I might say on it is that this philosophy didn't seem to get on the boat with Cortes or Pizzaro. I see first half and half time subs somewhat frequently (relatively speaking) when watching Argentine or Uruguayan footy

In Spain we also have temperamental managers. And in South America the blood is hot and the patience is thin. I think what you say is true, and the reason is that they're more emotional.

If you look at the Spanish league though, and I know you do, you'll see how a non temperamental manager, like say, the Valencia current manager Emery, or Pellegrini in Real Madrid, rarely does subs before 65. I think that there's a relationship of how temperamental or vulnerable to pressure is a manager and doing that kind of drastic substitutions.

I thought the blood levels were supposed to be at the same temperatures in Spain and South America

Maybe those South American managers should get high before matches and then they might not be so quick to make decisions (but they would be hungirer on the touchline

)

by **Ben Patrick** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:40 pm

I can see why Rafa adopts his philosaphy at times but there have certainly been plenty of occasions where he should have changed things sooner.
Things have clearly not been working in games and you think to yourself why are we going to waste 20 mins of the second half when for that 20 minutes we can all see that its not working.
So in theory in your average game i agree with what Rafa usually does but every game is different and our substitutions and timing of them should be made depending on how the game is going.

by **heimdall** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:03 pm

Sabre wrote:
stmichael wrote:be interesting if maureen manages in spain in the future then.

at chelsea i remember him making a double change after 25 minutes in one game.

Yep I have seen him doing subs at first half. No surprise, he's more temperamental than Rafa, and he likes blaming the players more than Rafa. We all know that. Don't we. ( )

Yeah and we also know that he has been far more successful than Rafa.

I think the main reason that Rafa doesn't make subs before the 65th minute is because he looks at the bench and thinks, like most of us do, that there is simply no bloody point, none of the subs are likely to do much better than the under performing player on the field.

Oh yeah and there is that stubborn arrogance thing as well. For example against Fiorentina it was blindingly obvious that we were getting murdered in CM but because Rafa for some bizarre reason chose to start with Stevie at AM again and then play Aurelio as CM :Oo:

he chose to blame it all on the players instead of himself and refused to change the formation. This is what infuriates me with Rafa, the complete inflexibility and lack of a plan B, plus the fact that every now and then plan A is complete garbage like on Tuesday.

Rafa is a great coach but I'm still to be convinced that he is a great manager.

by **GYBS** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:09 pm

Im guessing Rafa makes changes during half time (not subs) more of a rocket up their backside or move a few people around then give them another 10 to 15 mins to sort it out themselves and if they dont then he makes subs .

As for wed yes rafa did mess up with playing aurelio where he did and must take some of the blame but that doesnt excuse everyone else playing like a bunch a donkeys and they must also take a big part of the blame

As for maureen first half subs and bringing on three at half time - they still ended up loosing most of the games he did that in .

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:46 pm

'Cultural thingy' or not a manager in England is entitled to make a substitution whenever he feels the need to. Restricting a manager to make a substitution between 65-70 mins in order to gauge his temprament by the wider footballing society is nonsical.

It is therefore reasonable to assume limiting your opportunities to stay in touch with your 'cultural thing' serves only as a hinderance to the team your managing.

Posted on behalf of a friend

by **Sir Roger** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:48 pm

Sabre wrote:
maguskwt wrote:I agree with the reasons...

however... I also feel that certain players if they are really playing badly deserved to be substituted before 65 mins... just to give them a kick up their backsides...

rafa is not afraid to drop a player from the lineup... so why not substitute a player before 65 mins as well?

In half time some strenght is recovered. And from that point, the tiredness appear quicker compared to when the game starts.

If you make a sub in min 55, you'd rather do it in half time.

So if we have subs before min 65, it means either Rafa is pointing out a culprit in a game, or him admitting he's wrong.

Since Rafa is a stubborn guy, he'll admit few times he got the selection wrong. And as you know he's not keen on giving stick to the weaker players, he's quite keen on praising the weakest links. I think that two factors explains why Rafa subs rarely before min 65.

It's true Magus, that a few times, I have missed some subs before we did them, as the game really was bad. But I read that demand of substitutions much more often than those few occassions, and most of the time in a game you have controlled, making subs before min 65 doesn't maximise the strenghts of your players.

This is one of the best threads I have read
Thank you for your insight and information. I have always been baffled by why Rafa waits for over an hour to make changes. This explains it perfectly. It is a cultural thing, plus the fact he is stubborn. I have always been of the opinion that if something isnt working and youve cocked up, then change things asap.
Obviously, like you say, Rafa doesnt adhere to this way of thinking.
Youve given me an answer to a mystery that I thought might never be solved

Muchas gracias señor

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Substitutions before minute 65 - A cultural clash thingy

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