Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:20 pm

To be fair though, and leaving Fowler out of it for just a second, someone posted up a list of strikers earlier which included Cisse, Baros, Bellamy, Pongolle, Crouch etc etc. I know one or two blanket throwers got involved but the point that ALL of those offer more than N'Gog and Voronin holds good.

Somebody else offered up the point that goalscoring is the last of our worries right now. I would agree with that. While Torres stays fir and scores at the incredible rate he is right now you might as well have me as back up for all the difference it makes. The problem will come of course should he ever be unavailable. The chances of a striker like Torres staying fit and available for every single match we might need him in is zero. It's not even close to zero, it is absolutely zero. The prowess of our back up strikers at that point will decide whether we can break our three year trophy drought, or whether we spend next Summer talking about how we would have won things if Torres hadn't got injured, and about how fantastic a job the manager has done to improve us so much and that next year will be our year.

At the top end of the game, fine margins decide things. Not going for a win at Arsenal and Wigan last season proved to be pivotal. It was a mistake not to do it on hindsight. the key is not to make silly mistakes which cost you points. Starting with and sticking with Masherano and Lucas in central midfield this season was a silly mistake and it cost us points. Gerrard playing centrally was an obvious solution until Aquilani became fit, and the fact it took us two defeats in three matches to make the move was/is costly. The key to not making mistakes is looking ahead and avoiding the banana skins before you stand on them.

In my opinion neither N'Gog nor Voronin are anywhere near good enough to be number one back up for Torres. If they are needed for an extended period and they prove this to be the case, it isn't bad luck, it's a bad mistake. Mistakes cose you points and trophies.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:25 pm

bigmick wrote:we spend next Summer talking about how we would have won things if Torres hadn't got injured, and about how fantastic a job the manager has done to improve us so much and that next year will be our year.

You mean like this summer Mick

Top post too btw, I agree completely

by **GYBS** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:31 pm

bigmick wrote:To be fair though, and leaving Fowler out of it for just a second, someone posted up a list of strikers earlier which included Cisse, Baros, Bellamy, Pongolle, Crouch etc etc. I know one or two blanket throwers got involved but the point that ALL of those offer more than N'Gog and Voronin holds good.

Somebody else offered up the point that goalscoring is the last of our worries right now. I would agree with that. While Torres stays fir and scores at the incredible rate he is right now you might as well have me as back up for all the difference it makes. The problem will come of course should he ever be unavailable. The chances of a striker like Torres staying fit and available for every single match we might need him in is zero. It's not even close to zero, it is absolutely zero. The prowess of our back up strikers at that point will decide whether we can break our three year trophy drought, or whether we spend next Summer talking about how we would have won things if Torres hadn't got injured, and about how fantastic a job the manager has done to improve us so much and that next year will be our year.

At the top end of the game, fine margins decide things. Not going for a win at Arsenal and Wigan last season proved to be pivotal. It was a mistake not to do it on hindsight. the key is not to make silly mistakes which cost you points. Starting with and sticking with Masherano and Lucas in central midfield this season was a silly mistake and it cost us points. Gerrard playing centrally was an obvious solution until Aquilani became fit, and the fact it took us two defeats in three matches to make the move was/is costly. The key to not making mistakes is looking ahead and avoiding the banana skins before you stand on them.

In my opinion neither N'Gog nor Voronin are anywhere near good enough to be number one back up for Torres. If they are needed for an extended period and they prove this to be the case, it isn't bad luck, it's a bad mistake. Mistakes cose you points and trophies.

Its the old added question mick of how many of those strikers would be happy to sit and wait until torres gets rested or injured ? crouch already proved he didnt want to do that .

Pongo - well he was already fustrated about lack of first team football when he wanted to go - went on loan to blackburn and scored around 3 goals i think - did well at a lower league spanish team then went to a big 4 club and now cant get into their team.

Baros - Did he ever get double figures in the league even when playing every single game - think he got 7 or 8 in his last season 04/05 - out of 40 odd games ?!

Cisse - same as crouch - wanted regular first team football same with bellamy .

So while they are prob better options than Ngog - the chances of them warming the bench waiting to come on for the last 5 mins or waiting for torres to be rested or injured ?? not much chance for me where as players like Ngog are willing to wait there chance .

by **aCe'** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:40 pm

I put a list up earlier but i cant remember who was in it... didnt have any explanations there so ill just put up some of the more important names that i thought we should have kept..

Warnock... only had Riise in the side at the time... he was young, English, improving... should have kept him instead of selling for peanuts

Finnan... Okay, we had Arbeloa... Who wasnt as good a RB at the time... but no one else... why did we sell him again ?

Murphy... was one of our more important players right before he was sold... Again, was Liverpool through and through and could/should have been kept as backup.. Putting him on the transfer list wasnt the right move especially when you consider the price we got for him..

Sissoko.. did well for us... we went out and spent an extra 10mill+ on what we got for him to bring in Mascherano... both do very similar jobs imo and even if we didnt want Sissoko to be starting every week, we could have made more of an effort to try and keep him at the club...

Owen.. much has been said about him... Saint i think got it right with his reference to Carras book... Rafa certainly could have handled this better

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:45 pm

GYBS wrote:Baros - Did he ever get double figures in the league even when playing every single game - think he got 7 or 8 in his last season 04/05 - out of 40 odd games ?!

Baros scored 13 goals in 45 apps in 2004/5 pretty similar to Kuyt who scored 14 in 48apps in his first season. The only real difference is Baros helped win the Cl, while Kuyt has yet to win a trophy with us.

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:51 pm

GYBS wrote:Its the old added question mick of how many of those strikers would be happy to sit and wait until torres gets rested or injured ? crouch already proved he didnt want to do that .

Pongo - well he was already fustrated about lack of first team football when he wanted to go - went on loan to blackburn and scored around 3 goals i think - did well at a lower league spanish team then went to a big 4 club and now cant get into their team.

Baros - Did he ever get double figures in the league even when playing every single game - think he got 7 or 8 in his last season 04/05 - out of 40 odd games ?!

Cisse - same as crouch - wanted regular first team football same with bellamy .

So while they are prob better options than Ngog - the chances of them warming the bench waiting to come on for the last 5 mins or waiting for torres to be rested or injured ?? not much chance for me where as players like Ngog are willing to wait there chance .

It's only an old question GYBS because you ask it every single time anyone talks about a new player (or even an old one in this case). I'll rehash an old answer I gave to you a couple of days ago.

If you are second choice striker at a club like Liverpool, you are going to play plenty of matches and get plenty of minutes. You have an excellent chance of winning trophies, of receiving International recognition, of earning sh!tloads of cash, receiving huge personal endorsements, and of having an elongated career due to the fact that you aren't going through the mangle every week.

You mentioned last week that Darren Bent for instance would rather play up front for Sunderland than he would be our first change for Torres. He wouldn't, he'd be absolutely mad to want that, on all the above levels. You said Owen wouldn't be back up, and he spends 3/4 of the time at Man Utd sitting on the bench, no doubt dreaming of scoring the winner against us at Anfield. Most teams have four strikers, of which they play two at a time. We play with one striker, who we play one at a time. We also have the best striker in the World today in our ranks, so players will be able to cope with not quite nudging him out on a permanent basis.

Look at Nicolas Anelka when he signed for Chelsea. They had Drogba. Did Anelka think "I'm better than Drogba", did he think "feck that I'll never get a game" or did he think "where do I sign, this will relaunch my career and I'll get plenty of chances"? Going by the mantra you chant on each and every time this gets discussed, he would have stayed at Bolton and been first choice.

It's not about "not wanting to be a back up" and all that nonsense. Players want to be treated with respect. That's why Crouch left, and thart's why Keane didn't work. It's about that pure and simple, respect.

by **GYBS** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:54 pm

aCe' wrote:I put a list up earlier but i cant remember who was in it... didnt have any explanations there so ill just put up some of the more important names that i thought we should have kept..

Warnock... only had Riise in the side at the time... he was young, English, improving... should have kept him instead of selling for peanuts

Finnan... Okay, we had Arbeloa... Who wasnt as good a RB at the time... but no one else... why did we sell him again ?

Murphy... was one of our more important players right before he was sold... Again, was Liverpool through and through and could/should have been kept as backup.. Putting him on the transfer list wasnt the right move especially when you consider the price we got for him..

Sissoko.. did well for us... we went out and spent an extra 10mill+ on what we got for him to bring in Mascherano... both do very similar jobs imo and even if we didnt want Sissoko to be starting every week, we could have made more of an effort to try and keep him at the club...

Owen.. much has been said about him... Saint i think got it right with his reference to Carras book... Rafa certainly could have handled this better

We had got aurelio Ace so we Aurelio and Riise when warnock was around and before aurelio rafa played traore so warnock was always third choice and would be third choice right now .

And i meant in the prem saint - he never reached double figures for us in the prem but kuyt has twice .

by **GYBS** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:00 pm

bigmick wrote:
GYBS wrote:Its the old added question mick of how many of those strikers would be happy to sit and wait until torres gets rested or injured ? crouch already proved he didnt want to do that .

Pongo - well he was already fustrated about lack of first team football when he wanted to go - went on loan to blackburn and scored around 3 goals i think - did well at a lower league spanish team then went to a big 4 club and now cant get into their team.

Baros - Did he ever get double figures in the league even when playing every single game - think he got 7 or 8 in his last season 04/05 - out of 40 odd games ?!

Cisse - same as crouch - wanted regular first team football same with bellamy .

So while they are prob better options than Ngog - the chances of them warming the bench waiting to come on for the last 5 mins or waiting for torres to be rested or injured ?? not much chance for me where as players like Ngog are willing to wait there chance .

It's only an old question GYBS because you ask it every single time anyone talks about a new player (or even an old one in this case). I'll rehash an old answer I gave to you a couple of days ago.

If you are second choice striker at a club like Liverpool, you are going to play plenty of matches and get plenty of minutes. You have an excellent chance of winning trophies, of receiving International recognition, of earning sh!tloads of cash, receiving huge personal endorsements, and of having an elongated career due to the fact that you aren't going through the mangle every week.

You mentioned last week that Darren Bent for instance would rather play up front for Sunderland than he would be our first change for Torres. He wouldn't, he'd be absolutely mad to want that, on all the above levels. You said Owen wouldn't be back up, and he spends 3/4 of the time at Man Utd sitting on the bench, no doubt dreaming of scoring the winner against us at Anfield. Most teams have four strikers, of which they play two at a time. We play with one striker, who we play one at a time. We also have the best striker in the World today in our ranks, so players will be able to cope with not quite nudging him out on a permanent basis.

Look at Nicolas Anelka when he signed for Chelsea. They had Drogba. Did Anelka think "I'm better than Drogba", did he think "feck that I'll never get a game" or did he think "where do I sign, this will relaunch my career and I'll get plenty of chances"? Going by the mantra you chant on each and every time this gets discussed, he would have stayed at Bolton and been first choice.

It's not about "not wanting to be a back up" and all that nonsense. Players want to be treated with respect. That's why Crouch left, and thart's why Keane didn't work. It's about that pure and simple, respect.

But anelka plays with drogab pretty much week in week out - im sorry mick but i dont agree they would be happy sitting on the bench when they know they could be playing prem football week in week out elsewhere scoring goals on regular occasions- getting international honours and doing what they love the most - playing regular football - not money or the privalege to sit on our bench watching our world class striker play every match he can .

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:01 pm

s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:Baros - Did he ever get double figures in the league even when playing every single game - think he got 7 or 8 in his last season 04/05 - out of 40 odd games ?!

Baros scored 13 goals in 45 apps in 2004/5 pretty similar to Kuyt who scored 14 in 48apps in his first season. The only real difference is Baros helped win the Cl, while Kuyt has yet to win a trophy with us.

Djimi Traore helped us win the Champions League. Fabio Aurelio has helped us win nothing.

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:07 pm

GYBS Anelka plays with Drogba now, but he's been there for two seasons mate while they've been playing 4-5-1. When he signed, he can hardly have been massively confident he would get lots of minutes as the striker can he?

by **Emerald Red** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:12 pm

Fowler, Finnan, Hyypia, Bellamy...

For the love of God, that's just f*cking clutching at straws! Bellamy is a w"nker, and Flower, Finnan and Hyypia were all past it or getting there. Cisse, Troare? Yer off yer b"stard rocker. Everyone moaned about Rafa's mass rotation policy, and now that he's sticking with virtually the same team of established first 11 every week, people want to moan about players that are gone now that wouldn't make a first team berth? F*ck sake, Mascherano has had to settle for the bench in the past few weeks, so what's that tell you? The likes of Cisse and Bellamy would spit the dummy out should they be warming the bench for more than two weeks. At least N'go and Voronin don't have the reputation nor the balls or ego to even complain about that because they know they're lucky to even get a game playing for us. The only lack of depth I see in our team is the worry that Torres should get injured and we don't have a second striker. That's it. The bottom line. Fact is for such a weakened squad, we've fairly been pumping the goals in the past two years.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:13 pm

GYBS wrote:And i meant in the prem saint - he never reached double figures for us in the prem but kuyt has twice .

Can't see how you meant the prem when you said in 40 odd games ?

think he got 7 or 8 in his last season 04/05 - out of 40 odd games ?!

by **GYBS** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:15 pm

Mick chelsea changed things to fit in anelka cause he is world class and they bought him in Jan 08 and he played 14 games in that prem season - thats most of their games and last season he played 35 games -and most of them as a starter - either up front on his own or with drogba or one of a front three out wide right or left . So he wasnt warming the bench waiting for drogba he was on the pitch playing up front with him or in the team somewhere .

by **GYBS** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:16 pm

s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:And i meant in the prem saint - he never reached double figures for us in the prem but kuyt has twice .

Can't see how you meant the prem when you said in 40 odd games ?

think he got 7 or 8 in his last season 04/05 - out of 40 odd games ?!

apologies saint meant 30 odd games .

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:20 pm

Cool Hand Luke wrote:
s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:Baros - Did he ever get double figures in the league even when playing every single game - think he got 7 or 8 in his last season 04/05 - out of 40 odd games ?!

Baros scored 13 goals in 45 apps in 2004/5 pretty similar to Kuyt who scored 14 in 48apps in his first season. The only real difference is Baros helped win the Cl, while Kuyt has yet to win a trophy with us.

Djimi Traore helped us win the Champions League. Fabio Aurelio has helped us win nothing.

Yeah but Traore only scored 1 goal in 141apps Aurelio scored 4 in 90apps

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