Liverpool FC Forum

by **GYBS** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:30 am

Yep agree Distin would of been good but then you have the old problem of him prob wanting to start most games as opposed to being just a back up .

by **Ciggy** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:31 am

NANNY RED wrote:

in bulk , that was me yesterday

Im still like that this morning

by **DrPepe** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:58 am

GYBS wrote:Yep agree Distin would of been good but then you have the old problem of him prob wanting to start most games as opposed to being just a back up .

I have absolutely no problem with that, given the performance levels of our currents CBs

by **GYBS** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:59 am

DrPepe wrote:
GYBS wrote:Yep agree Distin would of been good but then you have the old problem of him prob wanting to start most games as opposed to being just a back up .

I have absolutely no problem with that, given the performance levels of our currents CBs

Yeah there is that mate

by **stmichael** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:51 pm

I also feel that part of the reason for our poor defensive start to the season is Rafa's tactics or change of emphasis. What I mean by that is last season our biggest problem was drawing too many games. Rafa came in for a lot of criticism from certain quarters because of our "negative" play in the first half of the season, when we struggled for consistent form. The shackles were taken off in the second half and we came into our own. Rafa is trying to get the whole team attacking more instead of defending first and foremost, and this is in turn is creating more pressure on our back 2.

You can't have it both ways: either adopt a defensive strategy and make yourselves hard to beat, or take a few risks and attack more. At least Rafa can't be accused of not trying to learn from last season's mistakes. We probably will concede more goals this season than last, but the upside should be fewer draws.

by **Reg** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:05 pm

The fact of the matter is the defensive was bl**dy awful on saturday and thank god it was 'only' West Ham and not ManUre, Citeh or Chelsea etc.. as we would have been hung out to dry and the critics would´ve had a field day.

by **Owzat** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:06 pm

stmichael wrote:I also feel that part of the reason for our poor defensive start to the season is Rafa's tactics or change of emphasis. What I mean by that is last season our biggest problem was drawing too many games. Rafa came in for a lot of criticism from certain quarters because of our "negative" play in the first half of the season, when we struggled for consistent form. The shackles were taken off in the second half and we came into our own. Rafa is trying to get the whole team attacking more instead of defending first and foremost, and this is in turn is creating more pressure on our back 2.

You can't have it both ways: either adopt a defensive strategy and make yourselves hard to beat, or take a few risks and attack more. At least Rafa can't be accused of not trying to learn from last season's mistakes. We probably will concede more goals this season than last, but the upside should be fewer draws.

P7 W5 D0 L2 says it all, and 17 goals in seven games when we normally average around 1.7 goals per game.

I agree with some of what you say, but just because our emphasis is more on attacking then how do you legislate for so many goals from set-pieces where we have bodies back? You can't use the excuse of attacking football when we have bodies back, defending a set-piece. Either the system needs more work on the training ground, 169 hours a week might do the trick, or scrap it and use a system the defenders can actually make work

by **JC_81** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:07 pm

stmichael wrote:I also feel that part of the reason for our poor defensive start to the season is Rafa's tactics or change of emphasis. What I mean by that is last season our biggest problem was drawing too many games. Rafa came in for a lot of criticism from certain quarters because of our "negative" play in the first half of the season, when we struggled for consistent form. The shackles were taken off in the second half and we came into our own. Rafa is trying to get the whole team attacking more instead of defending first and foremost, and this is in turn is creating more pressure on our back 2.

You can't have it both ways: either adopt a defensive strategy and make yourselves hard to beat, or take a few risks and attack more. At least Rafa can't be accused of not trying to learn from last season's mistakes. We probably will concede more goals this season than last, but the upside should be fewer draws.

I would agree with that, if it wasn't for the fact that so many of the goals conceded this season have been from set pieces.

Whatever the change of emphasis is in attacking/defending in open play, there is no excuse for the set pieces we've conceded, it has been bad defending plain and simple.

by **stmichael** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:07 pm

john craig wrote:
stmichael wrote:I also feel that part of the reason for our poor defensive start to the season is Rafa's tactics or change of emphasis. What I mean by that is last season our biggest problem was drawing too many games. Rafa came in for a lot of criticism from certain quarters because of our "negative" play in the first half of the season, when we struggled for consistent form. The shackles were taken off in the second half and we came into our own. Rafa is trying to get the whole team attacking more instead of defending first and foremost, and this is in turn is creating more pressure on our back 2.

You can't have it both ways: either adopt a defensive strategy and make yourselves hard to beat, or take a few risks and attack more. At least Rafa can't be accused of not trying to learn from last season's mistakes. We probably will concede more goals this season than last, but the upside should be fewer draws.

I would agree with that, if it wasn't for the fact that so many of the goals conceded this season have been from set pieces.

Whatever the change of emphasis is in attacking/defending in open play, there is no excuse for the set pieces we've conceded, it has been bad defending plain and simple.

I agree that the defending has been really poor.

The point I'm making is that a lot of the time our centre backs don't get enough help from our full-backs. Johnson and Insua are so offensive that Skrtel and Carragher often have to go into wide areas leaving the other one isolted. Neither are the quickest anyway so having such attacking fullbacks can have it's drawbacks aswell as it's advantages.

The CM´s did not help much either. They come back just for the ball to start next attack, they don' really sit back as they used to. The defence is consequently put under more pressure and we end up conceding more free kicks and corners which we defend really poorly.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:44 pm

stmichael wrote:The defence is consequently put under more pressure and we end up conceding more free kicks and corners which we defend really poorly.

That's where your point is a good one, mate. We need to look, not only at how we defend set pieces (p!ss-poorly to date), but also what led to FKs and corners being given. In many cases, it's a rash challenge coming from a player pulled out of position or worried that he'll be exposed if he doesn't get the tackle in. Sure, Skrtel would still go through the back of the odd striker even if he had a battalion of shock troops behind him but he seems more likely to do so if he's only got Carra as back up.

by **HacksawJimDuggin** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:38 pm

We have defended terribly this season so far this season with Carra and Skrtel looking decidedly and uncharacteristically shaky.

Kyrgiakos isn't going to make any difference but I am delighted to hear that Agger is likely to step up his comeback and possibly play a part tomorrow night vs Leeds.

I wish we'd kept hold of Sami.

by **JC_81** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:49 pm

stmichael wrote:
john craig wrote:
stmichael wrote:I also feel that part of the reason for our poor defensive start to the season is Rafa's tactics or change of emphasis. What I mean by that is last season our biggest problem was drawing too many games. Rafa came in for a lot of criticism from certain quarters because of our "negative" play in the first half of the season, when we struggled for consistent form. The shackles were taken off in the second half and we came into our own. Rafa is trying to get the whole team attacking more instead of defending first and foremost, and this is in turn is creating more pressure on our back 2.

You can't have it both ways: either adopt a defensive strategy and make yourselves hard to beat, or take a few risks and attack more. At least Rafa can't be accused of not trying to learn from last season's mistakes. We probably will concede more goals this season than last, but the upside should be fewer draws.

I would agree with that, if it wasn't for the fact that so many of the goals conceded this season have been from set pieces.

Whatever the change of emphasis is in attacking/defending in open play, there is no excuse for the set pieces we've conceded, it has been bad defending plain and simple.

I agree that the defending has been really poor.

The point I'm making is that a lot of the time our centre backs don't get enough help from our full-backs. Johnson and Insua are so offensive that Skrtel and Carragher often have to go into wide areas leaving the other one isolted. Neither are the quickest anyway so having such attacking fullbacks can have it's drawbacks aswell as it's advantages.

The CM´s did not help much either. They come back just for the ball to start next attack, they don' really sit back as they used to. The defence is consequently put under more pressure and we end up conceding more free kicks and corners which we defend really poorly.

The full back point is a fair one, that the attacking full backs mean more pressure on the centre backs compared to last season. We do look less solid at the back and that is probably part of the reason, I agree, but that's not where we have actually been conceding goals if you analyse it. If we had defended set pieces properly this season, I bet this thread discussing the weakness of the defence this season wouldn't even exist.

I think more attacking fullbacks is only one of a number of reasons why we look weaker at the back. I don't think Carragher or Skrtel have played well individually or as a collective this season, and I don't think Lucas/Mascherano or Lucas/Gerrard or Gerrard/Mascherano for that matter provide as good a defensive screen as Mascherano/Alonso did last season. Again the individual form of Mascherano has not been as good as last season which also contributes.

I'm willing to live with this however, because we might well win more games (albeit maybe lose a few more also) than last season and improve our points total, by playing more attacking fullbacks and playing the more attacking Aquilani instead of the more defensive Alonso with Mascherano when he's fit. What I'm not prepared to accept though is how the set pieces have been defended. Benitez and the players need to get it sorted out quickly before it costs us more points.

If we defend set pieces against Chelsea in a few weeks like we have been, then forget taking anything from that game, and as Mick has been saying 9 points back from them would be a mountain to climb - that game is a proper 6 pointer even at this stage.

by **Owzat** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:44 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
stmichael wrote:The defence is consequently put under more pressure and we end up conceding more free kicks and corners which we defend really poorly.

That's where your point is a good one, mate. We need to look, not only at how we defend set pieces (p!ss-poorly to date), but also what led to FKs and corners being given. In many cases, it's a rash challenge coming from a player pulled out of position or worried that he'll be exposed if he doesn't get the tackle in. Sure, Skrtel would still go through the back of the odd striker even if he had a battalion of shock troops behind him but he seems more likely to do so if he's only got Carra as back up.

I've been saying it for ages, to many needless corners and free-kicks conceded and THAT puts the pressure on the defence.

And while we kept our goals conceded down last season, was it down to skill or more to the fact that not all the good chances were taken as well as other things like the ball going straight to the keeper or onto the head of a defender.

But all said and done I'd rather we threw bodies forward than have situations like we had last season with players looking to cross and noone to aim at. I guess we now have Johnson looking to get forward, but do we really want Carra, Skrtel, Mascherano, Insua or Lucas in the box to get on the end of crosses? That's half the team that you wouldn't back to score and most you'd rather were closer to the halfway line than the six yard box.

by **Avi Cohen** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:09 pm

I think we're panicking a bit, boys.

Carra and Skrtel haven't been at their best so far this season, sure, but we don't have to run out and buy defenders. Players have bad games, sometimes a run of bad games, but they'll come good because they're good players.They've proved it.

If, as someone suggested, that our defensive lapse has something to do with Rafa's shift to an offensive emphasis because of his slating for being too cautious at this stage last season (that includes me) I for one will take the attacking mindset over a defensive one. It's heart attack-inducing but at least it's fun and I'm not bored watching two defensive midfielders pass it back and forth in front of an unadventurous back four at home to Stoke anymore.

We'll score one more than you.

by **bigmick** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:11 am

One thing which has struck me this season about our defending of set plays is that Reina seems to come off his line and punch crosses much less than he used to. When a goalkeeper does it and does it well it makes defending much easier and can be a huge advantage. People used to talk about Grobelaars mistakes, but if you put a corner or a free kick inside the penalty spot he'd come for it. For every mistake there were a dozen successful claims and punches, and I wonder (if I'm right and he is coming out less) whether it's a conscious decision on either his or the coaching staff's part, or whether he is just lacking a bit of confidence in that department.

The key as far as I can tell as I don't know that much about goalkeeping, is that in whatever you do you are decisive. Reina made a bit of a nonsense of it for Davis's goal against Aston Villa where he kind of got caught between two stools, and whether that's had an affect on him only he will know. When we aren't really dealing with the high stuff very well though (like now for instance) it would be a huge help out if he could be more imposing. It does also have the add on effect of making the deliverer of the dead ball slightly alter where he's looking to put it.

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