Liverpool FC Forum

by **JoeTerp** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:07 am

Carlton Cole's heading ability >>>>>>>>>>> everyone on our team (except maybe the Greek's) 's heading ability

With a good delivery and an accurate header from Cole, it simply doesn't matter what system you play if you don't have the talent, height, athleticism, inner drive, etc. required.

by **Owzat** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:06 am

(Most of) the mistakes were very much avoidable, nothing much to do with ability or age but more panic. Skrtel having the ball then casually passing it straight to an opponent, Carra taking time on the ball he didn't have and giving it away (more forgiveable as the man was close and pressuring him) and the ultimate mistake was bringing down his man in the box when he was not in a threatening position. On the last should it not have been Johnson picking up the man not Carra? Johnson was inside of Carra offering cover, but surely the FB should be picking that man up not staying inside to cover?!?!

Both goals were sloppy and avoidable, other mistakes could have cost us more. I think panic set in because of the pace of Hines. Short of buying a super quick CB who is also good, that probably costing more than we can afford, what can we do - short term or long? Of course individual errors are bad, but were they one-off or do they make the same mistakes once or more every game? When Sami got done for pace on occaision and we got beat, did we panic then? We came out of it with three points, Rafa used a tactical substitution to try and deal with the problem, albeit after the threat was lessening and at the expense of one of our scorers, and we came through it.

Zonal marking is an ongoing issue, you can't prepare for individual mistakes but zonal marking is something we conceivably could sort out. We can't buy new CBs, not unless there is one who is better/quicker than what we have out of contract which on the face of it is highly unlikely (if they were better than Carra and Skrtel, they wouldn't be out of contract very long) Rafa had a chance to bring in a quality CB before the window closed, he went with Kyrgiakos and I'm not convinced Rafa will start him in place of Carra or Skrtel.

It's a shame because the best thing about Skrtel and Agger were they were young enough to be long term prospects, now we're struggling to get one, t'other or both fit and concerned about errors. Carra should be slowly but surely (Sami style) approaching Sami status which is regular but likely to become irregular. What would really boast spirits is a couple of local kids showing as much as kids like Hines and ones other clubs have coming through. Best any of ours are is at the moment is near the fringe of the 1st team squad and making up the quota in the new requirements

by **The_Rock** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:43 am

Gerrard30391 wrote:Not only is it confind to the CB spot either, if we aren't careful, and Insua plays as bad as he did today, we're left with a good, at best, LB in Aurelio then Dossena.

Hmmm....... I thought Insua was our best defender today

by **roberto green** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:20 am

metalhead wrote:As much as people like Skrtel here, he isn't good enough, he just doesn't look like a top quality CB, decent squad player at best. Carragher is getting older.

Out of the 2 I would say Skrtel is the better they are pretty similar in stylle,

I think Carra gets the vote because he is the local lad and all that, towards the back end of last season Carra went into decline most notably in the west ham game last season.I think this could well be his last season as our main defender.

by **devaney** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:23 am

I know Sammy wanted to go because Rafa told him he wouldn't get regular first team football! HOW MUCH DO WE NEED SAMMY NOW? HIS PERFORMANCE AGAINST MAN U LAST SEASON SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH FOR RAFA TO REALISE THAT HE WAS A MASSIVELY IMPORTANT PART OF THE TEAM. DID RAFA MAKE SAMMY FEEL THAT HE WAS - DID HE FK!

I know Alonso went because he was made to feel about as wanted as a hole in a Jonny at the end of the 2007/2008 season! AND WHAT DID RAFA DO AFTER XABI'S STAND OUT 2008/2009 SEASON? Rafa once again simply failed to perform as a manager should and keep his best assets! Rafa couldn't even persuade Xabi to stay for a year and help us win the title for ffs!

Stevie G nearly went ffs to Chelsea of all fkng places! A PICTURE IS EMERGING. LFC CAN NO LONGER GUARANTEE THAT IT CAN HOLD ONTO IT'S FINEST ASSETS. Mascherano to Barca at the end of the season? Torres get's offered a crazy deal and the club have the opportunity to sell him for £80m - what would happen? is everybody convinced that we wouldn't sell him? I'm not!

Fk I know I am sounding like a right moaning cnt but to be honest I am fed up with the incredibly stubborn approach taken by Rafa and some of his useless tactics and inept man management skills. MAYBE IT IS TIME FOR A CHANGE OF MANAGEMENT because frankly I think we are going backwards. My only hope that Aquilani is a fkg miracle worker if he ever plays! At least Keane the useless tw.at did at least get on the pitch!

RANT OVER!

by **The_Rock** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:30 am

roberto green wrote:
metalhead wrote:As much as people like Skrtel here, he isn't good enough, he just doesn't look like a top quality CB, decent squad player at best. Carragher is getting older.

Out of the 2 I would say Skrtel is the better they are pretty similar in stylle,

I think Carra gets the vote because he is the local lad and all that, towards the back end of last season Carra went into decline most notably in the west ham game last season.I think this could well be his last season as our main defender.

I think so too.....thought Skertel a decent game (hey if people called what lucas did was decent....Skertel was more than that). Think Carra is the liability at the moment....

by **Owzat** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:38 am

roberto green wrote:
metalhead wrote:As much as people like Skrtel here, he isn't good enough, he just doesn't look like a top quality CB, decent squad player at best. Carragher is getting older.

Out of the 2 I would say Skrtel is the better they are pretty similar in stylle,

I think Carra gets the vote because he is the local lad and all that, towards the back end of last season Carra went into decline most notably in the west ham game last season.I think this could well be his last season as our main defender.

I prefer Carra because he doesn't give away as many silly free-kicks nowhere near the box and putting the defence under pressure, Carra makes challenges in and around the box that are needed and consequently concedes free-kicks, penalties and own goals.

But both made silly errors when in posession, Skrtel's was by far the worse offence as his pass was over a longer distance and under zero pressure. That is why I still back Carra, still makes vital challenges and usually when needed.

People talk of Torres being tired, Gerrard and Johnson. Ok Carra retired from the International scene, but this was his 48th consecutive Liverpool Premiership start and how often does he come off?

CARRAGHER PREMIERSHIP APPEARANCES

09/10 : 6/6
08/09 : 38/38
07/08 : 35/38
06/07 : 35/38
05/06 : 36/38
04/05 : 38/38
03/04 : 22/38
02/03 : 35/38
01/02 : 33/38
00/01 : 34/38
99/00 : 36/38
98/99 : 34/38

He's played 90% of Premiership games in the last 12 seasons including this, only once has he played less than 33 (87%) and that one season of 22 appearances knocks 3% off his overall percentage. To put 90% into perspective, that means he played 18 games out of every 20 played. Neither Agger nor Skrtel has played more than 27 Premiership games, neither had Sami since 05/06 when he too was virtually ever-present - 38, 35, 37, 36, 38, 32, 36 (his seasons up to and including 05/06)

Supposedly we have Mascherano in front of the CBs to make these challenges that they seem to, Skrtel in particular, be making. In fact at times we have two in Lucas and Mascherano, are we throwing too many bodies forward and leaving our CBs too exposed?

by **roberto green** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:07 am

The_Rock wrote:
roberto green wrote:
metalhead wrote:As much as people like Skrtel here, he isn't good enough, he just doesn't look like a top quality CB, decent squad player at best. Carragher is getting older.

Out of the 2 I would say Skrtel is the better they are pretty similar in stylle,

I think Carra gets the vote because he is the local lad and all that, towards the back end of last season Carra went into decline most notably in the west ham game last season.I think this could well be his last season as our main defender.

I think so too.....thought Skertel a decent game (hey if people called what lucas did was decent....Skertel was more than that). Think Carra is the liability at the moment....

Totally agree with the lucas thing there mate, ok he has improved but he is still nothing great or eye catching, I think half the reason people say he has improved is because he doesn't make as many mistakes anymore and he goes unnoticed i,e goes missing and that is one of the main reason Gerrard is not having a good start to the season, because he is dropping back into midfield trying to make things happen.

by **roberto green** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:11 am

Owzat wrote:I prefer Carra because he doesn't give away as many silly free-kicks nowhere near the box and putting the defence under pressure, Carra makes challenges in and around the box that are needed and consequently concedes free-kicks, penalties and own goals.
and leaving our CBs too exposed?

A bit of a contridiction that sentence in itself.I think Carra has made more defensive mistakes as anyone of late, even the headed goal Cole scored Carra should of had.

by **Octsky** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:53 am

Knowing Carra all this years (yah, we are best mates), dropping him for one or two match will do wonder and invoke the best positive kind of reaction from him.
Carra is a top defender, as defending is done as much mentally versus physically.
He can read the game well, tenacious in defend and determine to win. The team can still depend on him.

Skertel is a non nonsense defender but lack intelligence and concentration evidently in the errors he committed today VS West Ham. Skertel is not for the long term.

Agger as a defender is a rare breed, he can bring the ball up field, can pass the ball well, and shoot a stinger. The closer thing to Alan Hansen in 2 decades. If he can keep fit and improve on his defending, he can be world class, "Paolo Maldini" world class.

If we have a chance to sign another defender of potential, i will say lets go for it.

by **devaney** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:14 am

Octsky wrote:Knowing Carra all this years (yah, we are best mates), dropping him for one or two match will do wonder and invoke the best positive kind of reaction from him.
Carra is a top defender, as defending is done as much mentally versus physically.
He can read the game well, tenacious in defend and determine to win. The team can still depend on him.

Skertel is a non nonsense defender but lack intelligence and concentration evidently in the errors he committed today VS West Ham. Skertel is not for the long term.

Agger as a defender is a rare breed, he can bring the ball up field, can pass the ball well, and shoot a stinger. The closer thing to Alan Hansen in 2 decades. If he can keep fit and improve on his defending, he can be world class, "Paolo Maldini" world class.

If we have a chance to sign another defender of potential, i will say lets go for it.

Excellent post. Losing faith in Carra is like losing faith in Liverpool!

A couple of :censored:

games does not mean that he is finished.

by **The_Rock** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:16 am

roberto green wrote:
Owzat wrote:I prefer Carra because he doesn't give away as many silly free-kicks nowhere near the box and putting the defence under pressure, Carra makes challenges in and around the box that are needed and consequently concedes free-kicks, penalties and own goals.
and leaving our CBs too exposed?

A bit of a contridiction that sentence in itself.I think Carra has made more defensive mistakes as anyone of late, even the headed goal Cole scored Carra should of had.

Yeah.....if anyone's giving away needless penalties and freekicks....its Carra.

by **Homebooby** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:26 am

Sabre wrote:The Spanish second commentator couldn't believe that all our 9 goals came from set pieces situation. He also thinks Carra's past his best.

I don't know if this is Carraguer's age or simply a bad form that any player can have, but definitely he has to improve if he wants to play regularly. To make things worse Skrtel doesn't seem confident.

Just as Benayoun has been tried and apparently earned a regular starter status, I think we should try the Greek and see if he grabs his chance. We definitely have a problem in the back, and it affects not only when we are defending, also how we build up our game.

We need Agger back. But yes, there's no doubt that today's worst link were the CB. I actually liked pretty much everyone else in the pitch. Lucas was not brilliant but not bad and I think everyone else did a good job.

I think the crux of the problem is that Carragher has always needed someone solid along side of him and Hypia is the only one who has been able to provide that. I think Sami allowed him the opportunity to shine and his absence even before he left the club was already impacting Carragher a season or 2 ago.

We do have a major problem here as Carragher is getting older and Skrtel is not the answer, the boy appears to have as many brain cells as testicles and is far too prone to flare ups in dangerous areas and gives away way too many free kicks that put us under pressure. He's a decent back up for the main 2, but not the foundation we need to build on.

We're realistically going to need to rely on Carragher for a couple more seasons, so we need someone a lot younger to inject some youth, pace and energy into the partnership. If we can get that stability, I think Carragher has a few more good seasons in him...his anticipation and reading of the game is equal to Sami's and that is what kept Sami performing at that level for so long.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:26 am

devaney wrote:I know Sammy wanted to go because Rafa told him he wouldn't get regular first team football! HOW MUCH DO WE NEED SAMMY NOW? HIS PERFORMANCE AGAINST MAN U LAST SEASON SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH FOR RAFA TO REALISE THAT HE WAS A MASSIVELY IMPORTANT PART OF THE TEAM. DID RAFA MAKE SAMMY FEEL THAT HE WAS - DID HE FK!

I know Alonso went because he was made to feel about as wanted as a hole in a Jonny at the end of the 2007/2008 season! AND WHAT DID RAFA DO AFTER XABI'S STAND OUT 2008/2009 SEASON? Rafa once again simply failed to perform as a manager should and keep his best assets! Rafa couldn't even persuade Xabi to stay for a year and help us win the title for ffs!

Stevie G nearly went ffs to Chelsea of all fkng places! A PICTURE IS EMERGING. LFC CAN NO LONGER GUARANTEE THAT IT CAN HOLD ONTO IT'S FINEST ASSETS. Mascherano to Barca at the end of the season? Torres get's offered a crazy deal and the club have the opportunity to sell him for £80m - what would happen? is everybody convinced that we wouldn't sell him? I'm not!

Fk I know I am sounding like a right moaning cnt but to be honest I am fed up with the incredibly stubborn approach taken by Rafa and some of his useless tactics and inept man management skills. MAYBE IT IS TIME FOR A CHANGE OF MANAGEMENT because frankly I think we are going backwards. My only hope that Aquilani is a fkg miracle worker if he ever plays! At least Keane the useless tw.at did at least get on the pitch!

RANT OVER!

Good thing we won...I'd hate to see your views had we lost.

by **Sabre** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:34 am

Homebooby, I kind of agree you.

My main explanation to how Carraguer's playing is not age. And I agree you that in the position of CB, analysing the partnership, and not only the player is the right thing to do.

Some mistakes of yesterday cannot be explained only with age. There was lack of concentration, there were nervous details, and the root of it might be that the partnership doesn't work and we've conceded too many goals this season from our mistakes.

Agger is the player I want to see regularly, but in the mean time I think it's the time to bench either Carra or Skrtel. And between that two, I'd sit Skrtel first.

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