Liverpool FC Forum

by **DrPepe** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:44 am

bigmick wrote:
redbeergoggles wrote:Listen Rafa is not going to let this one go, until he finds a position were he fits

That's my worry too. Are we going to see another Kuyt situation, where the World and his brother can see it's not working but we pick him ad infinitum for a season in a position which he is wholly unsuited to.

Lucas may or may not be a holding/defensive midfielder, he may even be able to play off a striker, but he certainly isn't a primary ball distributer from the centre of midfield. That much is glaringly obvious, and the sooner we put him/us out of our misery the better.

i certainly hope we do get a kuyt situation

by **redbeergoggles** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:52 am

bigmick wrote:
redbeergoggles wrote:Listen Rafa is not going to let this one go, until he finds a position were he fits

That's my worry too. Are we going to see another Kuyt situation, where the World and his brother can see it's not working but we pick him ad infinitum for a season in a position which he is wholly unsuited to.

Lucas may or may not be a holding/defensive midfielder, he may even be able to play off a striker, but he certainly isn't a primary ball distributer from the centre of midfield. That much is glaringly obvious, and the sooner we put him/us out of our misery the better.

I know Mick and to a large part I concur ,but as long as the midfield is tight and compact ,surely he might be worth a punt playing off Torres who is tantamount to drowning up front playing on his own ,even if Lucas can just hold the ball and slide Torres in (something that escapes our current back up strikers )then it could prove profitable .

by **bigmick** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:12 pm

Well I don't advocate moving Kuyt Red, so that means Lucas's rivals for support striker assuming Gerrard moves are Babel, N'Gog, Voronin or Benayoun. He wouldn't exactly have to be Kenny Dalglish to have a shot it has to be said, so there may well be something in what you're saying. Crucially, it would give Rafa an "out" as well, allowing him to play his man and be kind of proven right all along. Before anybody asks, yes I do think that's a consideration here.

by **GYBS** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:18 pm

bigmick wrote:Well I don't advocate moving Kuyt Red, so that means Lucas's rivals for support striker assuming Gerrard moves are Babel, N'Gog, Voronin or Benayoun. He wouldn't exactly have to be Kenny Dalglish to have a shot it has to be said, so there may well be something in what you're saying. Crucially, it would give Rafa an "out" as well, allowing him to play his man and be kind of proven right all along. Before anybody asks, yes I do think that's a consideration here.

I actually agree with what your saying about moving gerrard and lucas about as one of the attributes lucas is strong at is the quick little pass and first time ball so think he could do a decent job there but there would also be the possiblty of swapping with gerrard throughout the game and giving the team options also keeping the oppo on their toes .

Also i think one of the main reasons gerrard dropped a bit deeper last game against bolton was to try and drag muamba out of the game . this gave lucas a bit of space to move into

by **bigmick** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:32 pm

GYBS wrote:Also i think one of the main reasons gerrard dropped a bit deeper last game against bolton was to try and drag muamba out of the game . this gave lucas a bit of space to move into

Once they were down to ten mate it was the obvious move for Gerrard to drop in as Muamba couldn't possibly follow him. Your only chance really when down to ten (unless you go for a kind of balls out kamikazi move which can work occasionally) is to get very compact, leave very little space in between your two banks of four and try and frustrate. You simply cannot afford the luxury of one of your players doing a marking job on a central midfielder, so it was a case of Gerrard simply taking off the handcuffs and walking free, (he was no doubt instructed to do so by our coaching staff, I'm not suggesting he just did it himself).

Two things came out of it. Firstly Gerrard made an instant impact, which is what you'd expect. In many ways I think Lucas has been most unlucky in this season of ours. Firstly, he's bunged in and asked to cover for Alonso without any alteration to the formation we were playing last season (with Gerrard very advanced). Surprise surprise he isn't as good as Alonso in the role which was designed specifically for the Spaniard. Then, we stick a World Class midfielder in his spot and shove him forward, and loh and behold not only is Alonso better than Lucas, but feck me Gerrard is as well

Lucas isn't capable of playing the role he's being asked to play IMHO, it's as simple as that. He may though be capable of something or somewhere else.

The other thing which came out of the Bolton game was that Muamba is a good player who we could look at. On the subject of his marking Gerrard, it is something we will see time and again if Lucas is given the role of primary ball distributer from central midfield. Because his passing isn't crisp enough or incisive enough, players will be able to shackle not just Gerrard but Torres as well.

by **redbeergoggles** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:37 pm

bigmick wrote:Well I don't advocate moving Kuyt Red, so that means Lucas's rivals for support striker assuming Gerrard moves are Babel, N'Gog, Voronin or Benayoun. He wouldn't exactly have to be Kenny Dalglish to have a shot it has to be said, so there may well be something in what you're saying. Crucially, it would give Rafa an "out" as well, allowing him to play his man and be kind of proven right all along. Before anybody asks, yes I do think that's a consideration here.

I think of the list of possible options available on that list Mick the only really viable alternative is Benayoun ,but as I stated in an earlier post I see Benayoun more as an impact sub

by **kazza** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:38 pm

Here's a thought .. Play Gerrard and Masch in the middle and Lucas as AM. You never know it might work.

by **aCe'** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:24 pm

bigmick wrote:On the subject of his marking Gerrard, it is something we will see time and again if Lucas is given the role of primary ball distributer from central midfield. Because his passing isn't crisp enough or incisive enough, players will be able to shackle not just Gerrard but Torres as well.

thats what i was thinking during the game too.. And Gerrards role is too advanced for Lucas to be playing it... if we have Gerrard playing deeper we'll probably see our 2 wingers playing much higher up and it becoming more a 4-3-3 than a 4-5-1

Masch

Lucas Gerrard

sort of thing i'd think... which might not be too bad come to think about it... Dont agree with anyone who thinks Lucas would be any good further up... havent seen anything to prove that... no first touch passes or any of that... The one good thing hes always done though is pop into the box to attack crosses, and for his size hes very good at that... I think he moves into spaces well when not on the ball, and if he was better technically or had more confidence in the little ability he has, he would have made a decent box to box midfielder...

As things stand though, id leave him out of the side, period.
If we are to move Gerrard back, we have plenty of other options to be playing in the higher positions without having to play Lucas in the side... Unless Mick is right about Rafa trying to prove a point...

by **DrPepe** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:28 pm

aCe' wrote:
bigmick wrote:On the subject of his marking Gerrard, it is something we will see time and again if Lucas is given the role of primary ball distributer from central midfield. Because his passing isn't crisp enough or incisive enough, players will be able to shackle not just Gerrard but Torres as well.

thats what i was thinking during the game too.. And Gerrards role is too advanced for Lucas to be playing it... if we have Gerrard playing deeper we'll probably see our 2 wingers playing much higher up and it becoming more a 4-3-3 than a 4-5-1

Masch

Lucas Gerrard

sort of thing i'd think... which might not be too bad come to think about it... Dont agree with anyone who thinks Lucas would be any good further up... havent seen anything to prove that... no first touch passes or any of that... The one good thing hes always done though is pop into the box to attack crosses, and for his size hes very good at that... I think he moves into spaces well when not on the ball, and if he was better technically or had more confidence in the little ability he has, he would have made a decent box to box midfielder...

As things stand though, id leave him out of the side, period.
If we are to move Gerrard back, we have plenty of other options to be playing in the higher positions without having to play Lucas in the side... Unless Mick is right about Rafa trying to prove a point...

of the 2 of them, it's clear that lucas already plays way ahead of mascher , who hardly makes it past the half way line ...

by **aCe'** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:33 pm

DrPepe wrote:
aCe' wrote:
bigmick wrote:On the subject of his marking Gerrard, it is something we will see time and again if Lucas is given the role of primary ball distributer from central midfield. Because his passing isn't crisp enough or incisive enough, players will be able to shackle not just Gerrard but Torres as well.

thats what i was thinking during the game too.. And Gerrards role is too advanced for Lucas to be playing it... if we have Gerrard playing deeper we'll probably see our 2 wingers playing much higher up and it becoming more a 4-3-3 than a 4-5-1

Masch

Lucas Gerrard

sort of thing i'd think... which might not be too bad come to think about it... Dont agree with anyone who thinks Lucas would be any good further up... havent seen anything to prove that... no first touch passes or any of that... The one good thing hes always done though is pop into the box to attack crosses, and for his size hes very good at that... I think he moves into spaces well when not on the ball, and if he was better technically or had more confidence in the little ability he has, he would have made a decent box to box midfielder...

As things stand though, id leave him out of the side, period.
If we are to move Gerrard back, we have plenty of other options to be playing in the higher positions without having to play Lucas in the side... Unless Mick is right about Rafa trying to prove a point...

of the 2 of them, it's clear that lucas already plays way ahead of mascher , who hardly makes it past the half way line ...

im sorry but i dont get your point.. and If Lucas is "way ahead" of Mascherano then maybe thats where the problem is... he shouldnt be...

by **heimdall** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:54 pm

DrPepe wrote:
aCe' wrote:
bigmick wrote:On the subject of his marking Gerrard, it is something we will see time and again if Lucas is given the role of primary ball distributer from central midfield. Because his passing isn't crisp enough or incisive enough, players will be able to shackle not just Gerrard but Torres as well.

thats what i was thinking during the game too.. And Gerrards role is too advanced for Lucas to be playing it... if we have Gerrard playing deeper we'll probably see our 2 wingers playing much higher up and it becoming more a 4-3-3 than a 4-5-1

Masch

Lucas Gerrard

sort of thing i'd think... which might not be too bad come to think about it... Dont agree with anyone who thinks Lucas would be any good further up... havent seen anything to prove that... no first touch passes or any of that... The one good thing hes always done though is pop into the box to attack crosses, and for his size hes very good at that... I think he moves into spaces well when not on the ball, and if he was better technically or had more confidence in the little ability he has, he would have made a decent box to box midfielder...

As things stand though, id leave him out of the side, period.
If we are to move Gerrard back, we have plenty of other options to be playing in the higher positions without having to play Lucas in the side... Unless Mick is right about Rafa trying to prove a point...

of the 2 of them, it's clear that lucas already plays way ahead of mascher , who hardly makes it past the half way line ...

Erm ok not sure it really is that clear, but if that's the case then there's no problem putting Stevie in the Am role is there?

by **DrPepe** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:39 pm

heimdall wrote:
DrPepe wrote:
aCe' wrote:
bigmick wrote:On the subject of his marking Gerrard, it is something we will see time and again if Lucas is given the role of primary ball distributer from central midfield. Because his passing isn't crisp enough or incisive enough, players will be able to shackle not just Gerrard but Torres as well.

thats what i was thinking during the game too.. And Gerrards role is too advanced for Lucas to be playing it... if we have Gerrard playing deeper we'll probably see our 2 wingers playing much higher up and it becoming more a 4-3-3 than a 4-5-1

Masch

Lucas Gerrard

sort of thing i'd think... which might not be too bad come to think about it... Dont agree with anyone who thinks Lucas would be any good further up... havent seen anything to prove that... no first touch passes or any of that... The one good thing hes always done though is pop into the box to attack crosses, and for his size hes very good at that... I think he moves into spaces well when not on the ball, and if he was better technically or had more confidence in the little ability he has, he would have made a decent box to box midfielder...

As things stand though, id leave him out of the side, period.
If we are to move Gerrard back, we have plenty of other options to be playing in the higher positions without having to play Lucas in the side... Unless Mick is right about Rafa trying to prove a point...

of the 2 of them, it's clear that lucas already plays way ahead of mascher , who hardly makes it past the half way line ...

Erm ok not sure it really is that clear, but if that's the case then there's no problem putting Stevie in the Am role is there?

the guardian chalkboard website is pretty useful for examining movement on the pitch

mascher has spent most of his time deep in our half/centre circle this season, whereas lucas is "marauding"

in front - about 50% of his passes each side of the halfway line. interestingly , there's evidence that his role/application changed in the last 2 games, pushing further up

quite geeky i suppose but supports what i've seen on the pitch

by **redmikey** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:46 pm

jay spearing anybody? surely he has earned a chance at the spot lucas is filling at the moment, for me he is more creative on the ball stronger in the middle but unproven at the top level if you don't count a good display at champs league level

by **stmichael** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:48 pm

redmikey wrote:jay spearing anybody? surely he has earned a chance at the spot lucas is filling at the moment, for me he is more creative on the ball stronger in the middle but unproven at the top level if you don't count a good display at champs league level

whether you rate lucas or not, to say that spearing is better than him is complete nonsense

by **Owzat** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:34 am

When was this "good display" in the Champions League? The 15 min cameo sub appearance against PSV that was not only brief, but with the game already won and in which Lucas put in a MOTM performance? Babel scored, N'Gog scored, Lucas ran the show, and we put out three kids as subs - does that not show the game was not demanding or that you couldn't read a lot into Spearing's display? (or any of the kids for that matter)

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