Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:32 pm

In fairness Avi there isn't a defensive system invented which covers human error. If you're man marking or marking zones, if you don't attack the football you have problems. THAT is the issue we've been having, and in mnay respects people get too bogged down in where people are standing before the ball is delivered. Once it's delevered into your "air space", he who attacks it with the most gusto and intelligence nine times out of ten wins it, and that applies whatever system you are employing.

by **Avi Cohen** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:34 pm

Fair enough, Mick.

by **Owzat** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:43 am

bigmick wrote:In fairness Avi there isn't a defensive system invented which covers human error. If you're man marking or marking zones, if you don't attack the football you have problems. THAT is the issue we've been having, and in mnay respects people get too bogged down in where people are standing before the ball is delivered. Once it's delevered into your "air space", he who attacks it with the most gusto and intelligence nine times out of ten wins it, and that applies whatever system you are employing.

Have you considered though that the players might just dislike the system same as us, and it is human nature to react negatively, be it to try and make it fail or simply to have a negative attitude to it? While we may, as a forum, have a negative attitude towards zonal marking, we don't have to go out and try and make it work, the players do. I bet every time it fails they blame the system like we do, but is that going to make the system work if they think like that?

So my point is that mentality or attitude can make a system doomed to fail and perhaps it's better to try the other system. If that doesn't work then you point out to the players that they have to play a defensive system and whichever is used they have to make work as best they can so no point hating it.

I think our players always struggle with zonal marking, the fact that we don't concede more goals is perhaps down to other teams not exploiting it, inaccuracy of delivery, the keeper coming and by law of averages defenders will have to head the ball some of the time if it is there to be headed. I think there is far too much scope for defenders to not even try, they can fall back on blaming the system for any goals conceded rather than accept responsibility. If I give each member of the forum something to look after, it is their responsibility to look after what they are given. If I leave items for the forum to look after and noone does, they can blame others or the security or........................ you get the idea I'm sure.

by **bigmick** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:57 am

I've not considered the possibility that players "don't like it", but certainly there's a chance some of them don't believe in it which is tantamount to the same thing. I'm broadly an advocate of zonal marking, but I'm not wed to the idea as clearly at the moment we are having problems defending set pieces. Either we have to do it better it seems to me, or we have to change it.

You can be certain however that if we man mark and still don't attack the ball like we aren't doing now, we will leak plenty of goals. What makes me think a change to man marking for a while might possibily have merit is two things. Firstly, as Owzat and others have pointed out it does breed a certain amount of accountability. the other reason is that it makes your defensive set up less predictable, and it makes the old training ground routines a bit harder to execute.

We have two problems though. Number one is that we are allowign attackers to run off us unhindered (this is the main problem IMHO). Number two is we aren't attacking the football with enough conviction. Man Marking won't in itself cure that, but it may possibly focus the players minds a bit.

On balance though, I'd stick with the zonal and work harder at it. That's what i think rafa will do as well, but you couldn't really blame him if he ditched and went to a basic man on man set up, with pre determined match ups and a man on each post.

by **Sabre** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:34 pm

bigmick wrote:I've not considered the possibility that players "don't like it", but certainly there's a chance some of them don't believe in it which is tantamount to the same thing. I'm broadly an advocate of zonal marking, but I'm not wed to the idea as clearly at the moment we are having problems defending set pieces. Either we have to do it better it seems to me, or we have to change it.

Option A is the way to go, that is, improve in what we're doing.

A bit like last season, in which at some point there were concerns and threads about our set pieces, and then those threads dissapeared.

I can agree some of the flaws zonal marking has, but for every flaw zonal marking has you can find two for man marking. Good thread anyway.

by **Owzat** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:40 am

Q. Does zonal marking encourage ball watching more than man to man marking?

by **bigmick** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:19 am

Owzat wrote:Q. Does zonal marking encourage ball watching more than man to man marking?

I don't think it does by definition no, but then again there has been plenty of ball watching going on in our first few games so you couldn't really argue that it eradicates it either.

From my perspective we are defending over all in much too passive a way from set-pieces, and this is manifesting itself into concession of both chances and goals.

By passive, I mean if I'm marking Curtis Davis on the penalty spot and he starts to make his move to the front post, I want a piece of him. I want my arm in front of him, I want to be leaning in and generally hindering his progress. From there, I want Carra coming accross him before he gets in, and I want him to have to fight to get to where he wants to be. I want Lucas not to track Sidwell in, I want him to mark the player sufficiently that when he gets away, Johnson already has the area covered. When the ball is on it's way, I want Torres taking a couple of steps into it, attacking it by jumping out and meeting it full on, powering it out from the direction it came in.

I want to see howls of protest from the opposition headers as they're being blocked off, held, nudged and tugged. I want to see clashes of heads if anyone gets near it as our fellas head through the line of the ball. I want Reina to be decisive, come or stay with no in betweens, and if its the former take the ball and any innocent bystanders first, ask questions later.

We need to get meaner, not just metaphorically but literally as well.

by **bigmick** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:22 am

Anybody who doubts what I'm on about or doesn't understand, should watch the Mancs and Chelsea defend set-pieces. You try meandering in and around their defenders, making runs accross the edge of the six yard box and all that old b0ll0cks and see how far you get. Just because we are defending zonally doesn't mean we should just let people run riot, like I say it's time to get meaner.

by **desmdlow** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:26 am

Just to throw in a suggestion, how about changing to 3-6-1? We seems to have the players suitable for such formation. I know now is not the time to experiment with formations but maybe just maybe we are more suited to this formation.

Krgia Carra Skrtel
Johnson Masch Insua/Fabio
Kuyt Gerrard Riera/Benayoun
Torres

by **Owzat** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:35 am

Problems being :

1) the CBs aren't used to playing three at the back so it is a risk. Didn't we play that against palace a few years ago, lost 1-0 and that arguably cost us 4th and we have to put up with the "UEFA changed the rules for you" cr ap

2) if we had three fit CBs it might be an option, and even if we could put three on the field would it not be wiser to keep one on the bench for injury cover?

3) not sure of the timescales for return but is Aquilani due back before Aurelio? Not that Aurelio has to play ahead of Insua, in fact you could make a case for Dross if defending duties are lessened

4) I don't think it matters how many CBs you play or what formation, if the team is not playing well and still zonal marking like statues from set-pieces, then it won't fix the problem ie if you're playing cr ap or defending cr ap, it doesn't matter whether you play 3-3-3-1, 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-1-2, 5-0-5 or 10-0-0

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